Potential uses for GA Aventra 720s

[trainfan007]

According to a recent article GA have 20 spare Aventra 720's. The 720's were ordered pre-pandemic and so GA need less commuter trains.

One apparent proposal is for these units to go to GTR, I think they are pantograph only (correct me if I am wrong!) so this would mean that their suitabillty would be only on Thameslink's Cambridge route whicb I belive is fully electrifed.

I honestly don't belive that it is to have 720's out to Cambridge as they are commuter trains. It might be useful for maybe South Eaastern to maybe acquire these and maybe allow them to have AC and DC power.

Their 465's have been put up for scrap so these could be a nice addition to the new 707's SE have recently acquired. I know that SouthEastern also have an older electrostar version but, to be honest, I think that their 465 stock probably is the one should have priority. If Class 345 were abke to be used on third rail, I would give 345's to Southern and SWR as this would be a sigh of relief for commuters travelling on 20 year old trains.

 

[skyhigh]

If Class 345 were abke to be used on third rail, I would give 345's to Southern and SWR as this would be a sigh of relief for commuters travelling on 20 year old trains.

And what would Crossrail use now that their purpose built fleet has been given away?

 

[Domh245]

And what would Crossrail use now that their purpose built fleet has been given away?

Panic when the first one gets to the core and the doors don't line up with the platform edge ones!

 

[JonathanH]

It might be useful for maybe South Eaastern to maybe acquire these and maybe allow them to have AC and DC power.

Too long for Southeastern as most of their routes don't take 24m trains.

One apparent proposal is for these units to go to GTR, I think they are pantograph only (correct me if I am wrong!) so this would mean that their suitabillty would be only on Thameslink's Cambridge route whicb I belive is fully electrifed.

Proposal? Doubt it.

They could work Kings Cross to Peterborough peak workings but GTR pretty much already has a right sized fleet.

If Class 345 were abke to be used on third rail, I would give 345's to Southern and SWR as this would be a sigh of relief for commuters travelling on 20 year old trains.

Huh? Even if 345s were available which they obviously aren't, I don't think either Southern or SWR commuters would appreciate them turning up instead of 377s or 450s.

There is no sensible outlet for spare 720s (or 379s or 350/2s). The order should have been reduced.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Too long for Southeastern as most of their routes don't take 24m trains.


Proposal? Doubt it.

They could work Kings Cross to Peterborough peak workings but GTR pretty much already has a right sized fleet.


Huh? Even if 345s were available which they obviously aren't, I don't think either Southern or SWR commuters would appreciate them turning up instead of 377s or 450s.

There is no sensible outlet for spare 720s (or 379s or 350/2s). The order should have been reduced.

I mean that's only in hindsight. The order was defintley the right size intitially.

 

[JonathanH]

I mean that's only in hindsight. The order was defintley the right size intitially.

Indeed, the order was possibly thought to be too small.

However, hindsight isn't just now. It has been apparent for a while that the level of required peak extra workings would not be what it was.

 

[Alfie1014]

I think GA missed a trick when changing the 22 x 10 car into 44 x 5 car. What would have be more practical would 20 x 5 car Stansted spec and 24 x 3 car for the Essex branches and possibly WA routes as 5 car (= 6 20m vehicles in old money), 550 seat trains for the branches is way over capacity and could have saved some expensive infrastructure works on the Hereford E branch and at Wickford. The loss of flexibility in having one single fleet would have been compensated by not running unnecessary vehicle miles for years to come and having the flexibility to run a variety of train lengths to meet demand. But as has already been said hindsight is a wonderful thing!

 

[Trainbike46]

According to a recent article GA have 20 spare Aventra 720's. The 720's were ordered pre-pandemic and so GA need less commuter trains. One apparent proposal is for these units to go to GTR, I think they are pantograph only (correct me if I am wrong!) so this would mean that their suitabillty would be only on Thameslink's Cambridge route whicb I belive is fully electrifed. I honestly don't belive that it is to have 720's out to Cambridge as they are commuter trains. It might be useful for maybe South Eaastern to maybe acquire these and maybe allow them to have AC and DC power. Their 465's have been put up for scrap so these could be a nice addition to the new 707's SE have recently acquired. I know that SOuthEastern also have an older electrostar version but tbh I think that their 465 stock probably is the one should have priority. If Class 345 were abke to be used on third rail, I would give 345's to Southern and SWR as this would be a sigh of relief for commuters travelling on 20 year old trains.

you also seem to forget GTR isn't just thameslink, it's thameslink, southern and great northern.

In the unlikely case GTR were to take on some 720s, they would probably end up on great northern routes that don't go into moorgate. Potentially the one Thameslink route that always termminates at King's cross (the Cambridge stopper) would also de possible.

I have to repeat though that it seems unlikely that GTR would take any 720s at all

 

[fgwrich]

A like for like replacement on the C2C lines with some of the older 357s? They are in itself approaching their 23rd birthday, and the C2C fleet is in effect a run off of the GA order.

 

[JonathanH]

Do the worst 357s go for scrap in that plan?

I guess it saves a mid life overhaul for the 357s and could potentially mean all off-peak services are formed of 720s on c2c.

 

[43096]

A like for like replacement on the C2C lines with some of the older 357s? They are in itself approaching their 23rd birthday, and the C2C fleet is in effect a run off of the GA order.

The 357s are on lease until November 2029...

 

[Peter Sarf]

Do the worst 357s go for scrap in that plan?

I guess it saves a mid life overhaul for the 357s and could potentially mean all off-peak services are formed of 720s on c2c.

Well spare GA 720s to c2c is more likely than spare 350s or 379s to c2c as it will not create a new micro fleet - they would just augment the existing c2c 720/6 micro fleet and Ilford could not be nearer. BUT thinking Covid I wonder if c2c's 720/6s are now surplus ?.

 

[357]

BUT thinking Covid I wonder if c2c's 720/6s are now surplus ?.

Absolutely not. The timetable can't return to 4tph on the mainline until these units are in use, and they are also desperately needed to give some more slack in the 357 fleet.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Absolutely not. The timetable can't return to 4tph on the mainline until these units are in use, and they are also desperately needed to give some more slack in the 357 fleet.

That's good to hear (read).

 

[trainfan007]

And what would Crossrail use now that their purpose built fleet has been given away?

a different set of 345's

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Dec 2022 ==

Too long for Southeastern as most of their routes don't take 24m trains.


Proposal? Doubt it.

They could work Kings Cross to Peterborough peak workings but GTR pretty much already has a right sized fleet.


Huh? Even if 345s were available which they obviously aren't, I don't think either Southern or SWR commuters would appreciate them turning up instead of 377s or 450s.

There is no sensible outlet for spare 720s (or 379s or 350/2s). The order should have been reduced.

The order was done pre-covid.

 

[nesw]

I can’t see Great British Railways permitting Greater Anglia to retain such a large fleet of 720 units. A quick calculation shows around 105 units are diagramed in peak hours out of a fleet of 145. It‘s slightly higher than the previous timetable but still very generous!

 

[Russel]

I can’t see Great British Railways permitting Greater Anglia to retain such a large fleet of 720 units. A quick calculation shows around 105 units are diagramed in peak hours out of a fleet of 145. It‘s slightly higher than the previous timetable but still very generous!

Would they not be locked into a long term lease?

Could move some over to c2c I suppose.

 

[800001]

I can’t see Great British Railways permitting Greater Anglia to retain such a large fleet of 720 units. A quick calculation shows around 105 units are diagramed in peak hours out of a fleet of 145. It‘s slightly higher than the previous timetable but still very generous!

Why were so many units ordered if they use so few of them?

 

[Watershed]

I can’t see Great British Railways permitting Greater Anglia to retain such a large fleet of 720 units. A quick calculation shows around 105 units are diagramed in peak hours out of a fleet of 145. It‘s slightly higher than the previous timetable but still very generous!

Only 133 are GA units, the other 12 are c2c units. But yes that's a remarkable slack fleet utilisation, I think the reduction in Cambridge/Ely/Kings Lynn peak services probably goes some way towards explaining it.

 

[dk1]

Why were so many units ordered if they use so few of them?

All ordered in 2016 well before the pandemic slightly changed the scenario. These things happen.

 

[JCO1406]

Would they not be locked into a long term lease?

Could move some over to c2c I suppose.

If it allows more 357s to be formed of 12 coaches, then I don't see why not.

 

[Harpo]

I can’t see Great British Railways permitting Greater Anglia to retain such a large fleet of 720 units. A quick calculation shows around 105 units are diagramed in peak hours out of a fleet of 145. It‘s slightly higher than the previous timetable but still very generous!

Let’s hope there’s no thoughts of the awful 720s following on from the Dusty Bins and getting used for Norwich. (You know how DaFT think.)

 

[RUK]

Why were so many units ordered if they use so few of them?

There were plans for enhanced services, such as going from 3 tph to 4 tph for the Southend Victoria branch, but those have been shelved post-COVID. That’s also why there are some spare Class 755s, since there were new services planned with them, which haven’t materialised, allowing them to make up for some of the shortfall in Class 745s on the Norwich side, and Class 720s to make up for the shortfall of Class 745s on the Stansted Express side.

 

[dk1]

There were plans for enhanced services, such as going from 3 tph to 4 tph for the Southend Victoria branch, but those have been shelved post-COVID. That’s also why there are some spare Class 755s, since there were new services planned with them, which haven’t materialised, allowing them to make up for some of the shortfall in Class 745s on the Norwich side, and Class 720s to make up for the shortfall of Class 745s on the Stansted Express side.

The enhanced services that never went ahead were the additional hourly fast Cambridge-Liverpool St, extension of the hourly Liv St-Ipswich stopper through to Norwich, hourly Ipswich (Colchester)-Peterborough, half-hourly services on the Great Yarmouth route, and the two Ni90 trains each way each day which would have had the normal departure on those hours directly behind.

 

[GraphitProjekt]

Extending the Ipswich commuter service to Norwich would make 3tph to London which sounds quite exciting. I wonder if it would have stopped at Needham Market.

 

[saismee]

Extending the Ipswich commuter service to Norwich would make 3tph to London which sounds quite exciting. I wonder if it would have stopped at Needham Market.

That would be very exciting for the good people of Needham, but it would also certainly need to become a penalty fare station. I can imagine a lot ot people jumping on the new direct service to London, then getting a penalty fare not realising it isn't a pay-train like the Ipswich/Colchester to Cambridge/Peterborough ones.

 

[dk1]

Extending the Ipswich commuter service to Norwich would make 3tph to London which sounds quite exciting. I wonder if it would have stopped at Needham Market.

In the very early days of electrification Needham did have a weekday commuter service to/from Liverpool Street and formed by a class 312 EMU.

 

[London Trains]

I can’t see Great British Railways permitting Greater Anglia to retain such a large fleet of 720 units. A quick calculation shows around 105 units are diagramed in peak hours out of a fleet of 145. It‘s slightly higher than the previous timetable but still very generous!

If the current fleet size is deemed unnecessarily large (even accounting for future growth), I wonder if a few of the 720s could move to Great Northern to allow the last 15 387s to move to Southern?

 

[saismee]

Split from:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lineside-fire-stratford-10th-july-26.304475

If the current fleet size is deemed unnecessarily large (even accounting for future growth), I wonder if a few of the 720s could move to Great Northern to allow the last 15 387s to move to Southern?

I imagine this would be seen as a luxury for GN commuters, just for the reliability. Can the 10-cars run to King's Lynn, or is it 5 only? Did any 720s ever make it to King's Lynn or was that cut before they entered service?

 

[Crithylum]

I'm pretty sure 10 won't fit in KL. The other issue is that a 5 car is probably too short for the Cambridge cruiser even off peak, and a 10 car won't fit in the suburban platforms at Kings Cross.

Going to a lower density layout and increasing length of the services which are now under-capacity would be better IMO.