First to close Southampton depot

[Soundwave]

The way the industry is going, It won't be long until an operator pulls out a large area and there is no obvious company to replace them.

 

[heathrowrail]

Portsmouth isn't going anywhere. The Solent brand is very strong and the fleet and routes reguarly see big investments in the fleet. I believe they are quite profitable there

Slough, it relies heavily on the airport routes which seem to do well, and the railair coach routes are quite good as well.

I think one depot that could be in danger is Yeovil, but that is for another discussion!

Somerset ops seem to be in a mess again, First wanted to axe it's Berkshire ops a few years ago but won't because it supports RailAir which makes them a lot of money.

 

[M803UYA]

I think one depot that could be in danger is Yeovil, but that is for another discussion!

I think Yeovil staff are well aware of their fragility as a depot. It remains low on peak vehicle requirement, and is some level similar to late National Bus Company days before the arrival of Transits in 1986. It is the one First South West depot which hasn't joined the driver strikes which have been going on at present.

Whilst GSC aren't perfect, they are a decent firm.

A lot of Go South Coast's issues were present not too long after the merger between it and Southern Vectis. Bluestar in particular was losing money and the Wilts & Dorset operations had their own issues around that time. Merging the lot into a single operation took them time, and those growing pains were in the late 2000s. So, compared to Oxford and Brighton which have those issues at present they're in a better place having gone through those issues earlier than the other Go Ahead subsidiaries.

 

[Paperyostrich]

I think Yeovil staff are well aware of their fragility as a depot. It remains low on peak vehicle requirement, and is some level similar to late National Bus Company days before the arrival of Transits in 1986. It is the one First South West depot which hasn't joined the driver strikes which have been going on at present.

As a Yeovil staff member I agree, but hey ho we will have to see!

Intrested to see where the Streetlites and Streetdecks get sent to after Southampton, and also interested to see where Bluestar ends up on taking over some City Red routes.

I never understood putting Harefield down to hourly and scrapping the evening journeys, they always seemed well loaded. Also suprised how the 1 managed to survive when it was quite possible to consider it a failure! (I don't think I ever carried more than single figures on it at a time during my stint down that way!)

 

[PTR 444]

Some FirstGroup map nostalgia showing the extent of how much its network has declined over the years:

2009

https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEjTAK9CF07JAyXbkjT5ED1PYM-yf9BQLJ92S6SRv5qSjnmjQc-TUPtnm44vLfSMrEpRFSbaSC9av8sehsRezjUfQyIIcmkuUIWugSzDvuKUL8AsYFU7IOxITqkabUHsi7vrkVQsCLMlGOwt3t_nJBMKvhqrkYdWF1g2vtqnHYviRqgIMPOP3kBFzs1N

2015

https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEijGwgEtCr2Gs_LKwXHE4wi73VjwJzRUoH8FvulXhPTJKGQfGBRF7bGd0xOKzy_DARNYqmxeN8URxnaRu8U6XgBXKt6VE--CvnFGOshKyM2TkQ9Q8JnN3xRNe-lTY_VdYzHQPvt2Wcafm9a1nLRaYtlX4Q3Y35udXbbk7IEkXO95cjjQDcNXLdr4Wng

2022

https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEicv4foeBglu-p-ZgWojlSmJ9-n0CSdGRtmts4whiPXtELmtrI7swJlsnyjGq4kbHQQpbwsZpMiEFaU63A5o3oB68juRwMnoSPGWnuG98DP6-wtFGopq7ob0rPZ0yLEcfwspRE_5aD_JPI_XtGmAsuKxXhwlygul6cCw6SBbehexdSI3y3oTqgj2RBM

 

[Megafuss]

I was genuinely surprised to read the news. It was only a few weeks ago a big network relaunch occured with a snazzy Beat Impressions punlication to boot.

As for the replacements. Apart from Salisbury Reds, which appears a complete constant mess. I've been impressed with how Go South Coast has emerged from the pandemic. Its no surprise to have seen them step up in Bournemouth. However, Southampton is a bigger beast. You also have to assume that the time they'll be looking at the Bournemouth network, they'll also be trying to find ways to integrate First routes. I fear they may be stretched.

 

[fgwrich]

Would Blue Star be interested in buying the First Southampton garage, or have they enough space at their garage?

I would actually be surprised if GSC didn't show interest in taking on Empress Road, given that they are still using the somewhat cramped former Eastleigh Works buildings in Eastleigh. It would certainly give them a much newer, more modern and more centrally located depot. Perhaps they may reduce the Eastleigh site down?

 

[DaveHarries]

I would actually be surprised if GSC didn't show interest in taking on Empress Road, given that they are still using the somewhat cramped former Eastleigh Works buildings in Eastleigh. It would certainly give them a much newer, more modern and more centrally located depot. Perhaps they may reduce the Eastleigh site down?

That and the fact that a Southampton site would perhaps be good for reducing their dead running mileage. I don't know how many vehicles (PVR + spares) Bluestar uses for their Southampton routes though and nor do I know how many vehicles the depot at Empress Road has the capacity to hold.

At least Go South Coast have got more planning time on this one (a few weeks rather than just over 48hrs) than they had in Bournemouth. I think they will tweek their existing routes a bit and fill gaps where necessary (West End and Hedge End for example). I have considerable sympathy for the First drivers: on the occasions that work has sent me to Southampton I have used both operators and I wonder if, as with Bournemouth, GSC will run a recruitment event in a bid to sign up at least some of the First drivers who will already know the routes and ensure that the employment break for those drivers is kept to an absolute minimum.

Dave

 

[Paperyostrich]

I would actually be surprised if GSC didn't show interest in taking on Empress Road, given that they are still using the somewhat cramped former Eastleigh Works buildings in Eastleigh. It would certainly give them a much newer, more modern and more centrally located depot. Perhaps they may reduce the Eastleigh site down?

Apparently Empress Road is not for sale and is being kept for the office space

So drivers have been told.

 

[Robertj21a]

I was genuinely surprised to read the news. It was only a few weeks ago a big network relaunch occured with a snazzy Beat Impressions punlication to boot.

As for the replacements. Apart from Salisbury Reds, which appears a complete constant mess. I've been impressed with how Go South Coast has emerged from the pandemic. Its no surprise to have seen them step up in Bournemouth. However, Southampton is a bigger beast. You also have to assume that the time they'll be looking at the Bournemouth network, they'll also be trying to find ways to integrate First routes. I fear they may be stretched.

Is Southampton really 'a bigger beast' than taking on the Bournemouth operations ?. It never seems all that large to me.

 

[Lewlew]

First have set up a website for the closure

www.leavingsouthampton.co.uk

 

[Goldfish62]

The way the industry is going, It won't be long until an operator pulls out a large area and there is no obvious company to replace them.

I predict that will happen in the next 12 months.

 

[N1]

Bluestar stepping in, Go Ahead Group; https://www.bluestarbus.co.uk/bluestar-steps-following-news-first-bus-leave-southampton

Is there actually much extra that Go South Coast need to put on to cover the loss of first routes?

In the West of the city pretty much every first route is duplicated by a Bluestar and GSC route, with the only thing I can see possibly warranted may be an increase in Frequency on the bluestar 17 to cover the loss of the western legs of 3 & 8 and the 2 to Weston. I am no longer in Southampton so can't comment on loadings and if this would really be necessary, and the loss of First is only going to impact those not tied to an operator by tickets e.g. ENCTS pass holders

In the East there is more, the 6 would need a replacement pretty much matching the current route.

The 8 out from Midanbury would also need replacing, perhaps combining this with the First 7 running via Portswood instead to cover both routes.

The 3 probably needs some form of replacement in the Eastern section, probably just a return for the Bluestar 19. The 9 and 13 may also need something to replace them, but with the 9 cut back to Bitterne only. (Although both the 9 and 13 I believe are currently only run with a single bus each)

By adjusting the routes around you could probably cover the 3, 9 and 13 east of the Itchen with just two routes, at the expense of journey times.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Apparently Empress Road is not for sale and is being kept for the office space

So drivers have been told.

Really? Surely it is cheaper to relocate those facilities and systems to somewhere like Hoeford, or even some commercial office space?

 

[RELL6L]

Really? Surely it is cheaper to relocate those facilities and systems to somewhere like Hoeford, or even some commercial office space?

I agree, that seems really unlikely, prime land in an industrial estate away from operations - why would they keep offices there?

Not sure if it is owned or leased - the latest accounts for First Hampshire and Dorset show £11m of land and buildings owned on the balance sheet but also £500k per annum of lease rentals on land and buildings. As I think this company includes Portsmouth, Hoeford and Weymouth it could be either.

Unless they have an onerous commitment or it isn't worth what its on the books at, in which case you could 'hide' any write-down or onerous lease provision by staying there....

 

[Hophead]

Is there actually much extra that Bluestar/GSC need to put on to cover the loss of first routes?

In the West of the city pretty much every first route is duplicated by a Bluestar and GSC route, with the only thing I can see possibly warranted may be an increase in Frequency on the bluestar 17 to cover the loss of the western legs of 3 & 8 and the 2 to Weston. I am no longer in Southampton so can't comment on loadings and if this would really be necessary, and the loss of First is only going to impact those not tied to an operator by tickets e.g. ENCTS pass holders

In the East there is more, the 6 would need a replacement pretty much matching the current route.

The 8 out from Midanbury would also need replacing, perhaps combining this with the First 7 running via Portswood instead to cover both routes.

The 3 probably needs some form of replacement in the Eastern section, probably just a return for the Bluestar 19. The 9 and 13 may also need something to replace them, but with the 9 cut back to Bitterne only. (Although both the 9 and 13 I believe are currently only run with a single bus each)

By adjusting the routes around you could probably cover the 3, 9 and 13 east of the Itchen with just two routes, at the expense of journey times.

Divert the CityRed8 via Sholing (as it used to go in the past) and then there's no real need for the 9 if the 13 goes back to Peartree Avenue.

 

[Volvodart]

Capitalisation of £11 million in the accounts for the year ended 31 March 2011 was said to be for the new Southampton depot.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I agree, that seems really unlikely, prime land in an industrial estate away from operations - why would they keep offices there?

Not sure if it is owned or leased - the latest accounts for First Hampshire and Dorset show £11m of land and buildings owned on the balance sheet but also £500k per annum of lease rentals on land and buildings. As I think this company includes Portsmouth, Hoeford and Weymouth it could be either.

Unless they have an onerous commitment or it isn't worth what its on the books at, in which case you could 'hide' any write-down or onerous lease provision by staying there....

Yeah, you may be right in that they did some form of sale and leaseback when they built Empress Road? Assume they'll either look to offload any lease or let it run out.

 

[Paperyostrich]

Really? Surely it is cheaper to relocate those facilities and systems to somewhere like Hoeford, or even some commercial office space?

I will dig around and see if I can find out more, but many in Southampton have apparently been informed that the depot is to be kept!

 

[Hophead]

How many admin staff are there likely to be in Empress Road? First may want to avoid "unnecessary" redundancy costs. I don't know if relocation towards Portsmouth would be regarded as "a reasonable distance" in employment law.

 

[M803UYA]

How many admin staff are there likely to be in Empress Road? First may want to avoid "unnecessary" redundancy costs. I don't know if relocation towards Portsmouth would be regarded as "a reasonable distance" in employment law.

The commercial planning functions are run from Empress Road - unsure what else other functions still would be. There was a customer service team but First centralised that some time ago.
You could accommodate the head office functions within existing sites in the operation - Weymouth, Slough or Portsmouth for instance. Unless the intention is for First South West to take on the commercial planning functions from Cornwall (mixture of Camborne and Summercourt offices).

 

[johncrossley]

Many of the 'captive ' bus passengers in Southampton are students

Are there many bus passengers in Southampton that are not captive? The service in Southampton (by either company) doesn't seem exceptional enough to pick up a significant amount of passengers who have a car available.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Are there many bus passengers in Southampton that are not captive? The service in Southampton (by either company) doesn't seem exceptional enough to pick up a significant amount of passengers who have a car available.

Why would First or BlueStar really be able to prosper when key routes have no bus priority?


Shirley (and not the main high street bit)


Shirley Road - there is some inbound bus lane but roadside parking on the other

Of course, there's also the Clean Air Zone of which the main features are/were:

Feedback from stakeholders led the council to launch its Local NO2 Plan, which aims to reduce emissions – but does not feature charges. The Local NO2 Plan includes:

• A clean bus retrofit scheme: retrofitting 145 of the city’s licensed buses with emission reduction technology, bringing them in line with the highest and best diesel emission standards and effectively achieving a CAZ compliant bus fleet.
• Ensuring city buses and newly licensed taxis meet the cleanest standard of diesel.
• Creating a low emission taxi incentive scheme, offering drivers up to £3,000 towards switching their vehicle to an electric or low emission model, while also installing two taxi-only rapid charging points.
• Enhancing use of a sustainable distribution centre that lowers the number of heavy goods vehicles entering the city centre, by combining loads from partially empty lorries in fewer but fuller vehicles.
• working with local businesses to develop delivery and service plans that reduce emissions through greener last mile delivery alternatives, such as electric vans and electric cargo bikes.

The council submitted a business case to the government in January 2019, and the plan was approved for implementation in February 2019.

There's measure pertaining to buses, taxis and trucks. Private car? Nope

You can essentially drive your car into the centre of Southampton, there are few restrictions and little bus priority except short stretches on the A33 where it has been given up but doesn't hinder the car driver.

I'd hope that BlueStar (who are a decent firm) can now focus on developing the Southampton operations but support from the city council? That's what is needed - you see it in Brighton and Reading and even Portsmouth!

 

[Beemax]

Are there many bus passengers in Southampton that are not captive? The service in Southampton (by either company) doesn't seem exceptional enough to pick up a significant amount of passengers who have a car available.

I think students at Southampton Uni are 'captive' in the sense that they get discounted Unlink bus travel as compensation for the fact that car parking permits at the university are very difficult to obtain. The effect of this 'deal' was to wipe out any non-Unilink competition in the north of the city (apart from out-of-city Bluestar routes)

 

[nw1]

Is there actually much extra that Go South Coast need to put on to cover the loss of first routes?

Not sure of the exact routes but is the First 2 in the west the same route as the Bluestar 18? Or are there differences? Does the Oakley Road area still have services?

In the West of the city pretty much every first route is duplicated by a Bluestar and GSC route, with the only thing I can see possibly warranted may be an increase in Frequency on the bluestar 17 to cover the loss of the western legs of 3 & 8 and the 2 to Weston. I am no longer in Southampton so can't comment on loadings and if this would really be necessary, and the loss of First is only going to impact those not tied to an operator by tickets e.g. ENCTS pass holders

In the East there is more, the 6 would need a replacement pretty much matching the current route.

The 8 out from Midanbury would also need replacing, perhaps combining this with the First 7 running via Portswood instead to cover both routes.

Not sure if they can be combined as the 7 is a loop route (Townhill Park Estate out, Midanbury return), and if you were to combine that with the 8 you'd have to break the loop. Would also make the 8 replacement very slow.

The 3 probably needs some form of replacement in the Eastern section, probably just a return for the Bluestar 19. The 9 and 13 may also need something to replace them, but with the 9 cut back to Bitterne only. (Although both the 9 and 13 I believe are currently only run with a single bus each)

By adjusting the routes around you could probably cover the 3, 9 and 13 east of the Itchen with just two routes, at the expense of journey times.

By my reckoning then you'd need (at least) these extra routes:

City Centre-Portswood-Townhill Park
City-West End-Hedge End (via some route or other, I'd suggest direct to Bitterne otherwise West End and Hedge End end up with a very slow service).
City-Merry Oak-Harefield
City-Hamble
City-Thornhill Fairfax Court

The interesting speculation is what numbering might be used by Bluestar - currently they have (I think) 10, 13, 14, 15 and 19 free so the logical conclusion is that they'd use these 5.

I can see them keeping 13 for the Harefield, though all the others would need to change route number. A while ago (early 90s) 14 was used for the Citybus to Townhill Park so one might speculate that the Townhill Park might become the 14. The Thornhill could become the 19 as you say. It would then make logical sense for the 15 to become the Hedge End (as the 14 and 16 would then be in the same area) leaving the 10 for Hamble.

Would interworking with existing Bluestar routes become a realistic possibility? e.g. could the 18 and the (presumed) 19 interwork with each other at the Thornhill end to introduce possible through journey opportunities?

Not sure of the exact differences between First and Bluestar in the west so not sure whether new routes would be needed here.

 

[DaveHarries]

Divert the CityRed8 via Sholing (as it used to go in the past) and then there's no real need for the 9 if the 13 goes back to Peartree Avenue.

Sure but that depends on how much of the Bitterne / Sholing area you want to try and serve. Sholing is already covered by Bluestar (Service 7, Lords Hill - Sholing) but the loss of City Red services will leave a bulk of the Sholing area with nothing. Perhaps a replacement of some sort will be needed for the eastern part of Service 3 between City Centre and Thornhill. I wonder if a replacement route to cover parts of FS3 & FS 9 which would be same as the existing FS 3 to Woolston Bridge Link Road, then Bridge Road, Peartree Avenue, Spring Road, South East Road and Kathleen Road, then as current FS 3 to Hinkler Road?

Is there actually much extra that Go South Coast need to put on to cover the loss of first routes?

My own thoughts would be as follows:

- BS 3 (Eastleigh - Southampton via. Hedge End) could be made more frequent between Hedge End (Tripps End Caravan Park) and City Centre. For one thing that route is the only one to serve the southern part of Hedge End and also the route, which currently runs direct along Bitterne Road East and Thornhill Park Road, could be changed to cover parts, if not all, of Service 13 through Harefield.

- The western part of Service 3 between Lords Hill and City Centre is covered on an almost identical route by Bluestar 17 although the 17 does not cover Lords Hill Way which is covered, albeit on a less direct route than that of First 3, by Bluestar 7.

- FS 2 does not need anything done to provide a replacement service. Bluestar 7 already covers Weston on a frequency, off-peak daytime, of 6 per hour. Millbrook is also well covered by Service 18 on the same frequency.

- FS8 could be retained but would need a different route number to avoid potential confusion as there is already Bluestar 8 between Southampton and Calshot. It might be worth giving a link from Hedge End Station through to Hedge End High Street by covering Maunsell Way.

- BS 16 (Townhill & Midanbury - Bitterne - City Centre) is a slightly tricky one because you can't, I don't think, replace FS 7 along Oak Tree Road without dropping another part of the circuit. Perhaps the only solution would be a replacement route which follows the exact same route as the FS 7 but that would mean loss of the link to Bitterne Shops.

Anyway, just some thoughts from a non-Southamptonite.
Dave

 

[N1]

Divert the CityRed8 via Sholing (as it used to go in the past) and then there's no real need for the 9 if the 13 goes back to Peartree Avenue.

That would work, either via Sholing or just via Woolston. I was trying to think of the absolute minimum level of service Bluestar would need to cover First's exit. Running the CityRed 8 via the current 9 or 13 routes between Bitterne and Woolston would mean the service on that section would increase form the current hourly to half-hourly. If it was split to an 8 and an 8a, each hourly via the 9 and 13 routes, this would cover both, but would leave Harefield unserved

Not sure if they can be combined as the 7 is a loop route (Townhill Park Estate out, Midanbury return), and if you were to combine that with the 8 you'd have to break the loop. Would also make the 8 replacement very slow.

I was thinking that the loop on the first 7 would be removed and it would run 'direct' via Cobden Avenue when combined with the current first 8. This would result in loss of some service in Bitterne Park

Sure but that depends on how much of the Bitterne / Sholing area you want to try and serve. Sholing is already covered by Bluestar (Service 7, Lords Hill - Sholing) but the loss of City Red services will leave a bulk of the Sholing area with nothing. Perhaps a replacement of some sort will be needed for the eastern part of Service 3 between City Centre and Thornhill

Bluestar were already moving in on the First 3 between the city-centre and Thornhill before Covid. They introduced the 19 in September 2019 that pretty much copied it exactly, every 15 mins 7 days a week. It was withdrawn quickly in March 2020 to cut costs.

First's exit perhaps does leave a hole in the Council's Bus Service Improvement Plan, published in Oct 2021, although the council changing hands from Tories to Labour probably means it is meaningless now anyway. It was supposedly due for review in Nov 2022 but I doubt we will se anything on it anytime soon

Do Bluestar have enough vehicles to cover, or will some be drafted in from other Parts of Go South Coast? Their timetable seems to have returned to a similar service level as before Covid, although it has been over 3 years since I was living in Soton. I suppose it has been over 4 years since the Unilink fleet was replaced which did leave a surplus of buses.

 

[nw1]

Sure but that depends on how much of the Bitterne / Sholing area you want to try and serve. Sholing is already covered by Bluestar (Service 7, Lords Hill - Sholing) but the loss of City Red services will leave a bulk of the Sholing area with nothing. Perhaps a replacement of some sort will be needed for the eastern part of Service 3 between City Centre and Thornhill. I wonder if a replacement route to cover parts of FS3 & FS 9 which would be same as the existing FS 3 to Woolston Bridge Link Road, then Bridge Road, Peartree Avenue, Spring Road, South East Road and Kathleen Road, then as current FS 3 to Hinkler Road?


My own thoughts would be as follows:

- BS 3 (Eastleigh - Southampton via. Hedge End) could be made more frequent between Hedge End (Tripps End Caravan Park) and City Centre. For one thing that route is the only one to serve the southern part of Hedge End and also the route, which currently runs direct along Bitterne Road East and Thornhill Park Road, could be changed to cover parts, if not all, of Service 13 through Harefield.

I can see the sense in a 15-min frequency along Thornhill Park Road with two per hour going on to Hedge End and the other two to Harefield. If the number 13 was retained for Harefield you'd then have 3 and 13, which are related numbers, which might be easy to memorise for users. Not sure it would be a good idea to divert all 3s via Harefield though as it would significantly slow down the journey time, I would guess 10 mins to do the Harefield loop.

- The western part of Service 3 between Lords Hill and City Centre is covered on an almost identical route by Bluestar 17 although the 17 does not cover Lords Hill Way which is covered, albeit on a less direct route than that of First 3, by Bluestar 7.

Maybe they could tweak the existing routes in this area to ensure no area has a significantly slowed journey.

(Incidentally one thing they could do is run the U6 through to the City via Shirley as additional 17 journeys, albeit Unilink-branded. This would restore through links to Shirley from the University/Portswood area).

- FS 2 does not need anything done to provide a replacement service. Bluestar 7 already covers Weston on a frequency, off-peak daytime, of 6 per hour. Millbrook is also well covered by Service 18 on the same frequency.

I guess you mean the 17, not the 7? As others have suggested, probably the 17 needs to be upped to 8 buses per hour over the General Hospital-City-Weston section. (Through-working with the U6 could be a nice way to achieve this).

- FS8 could be retained but would need a different route number to avoid potential confusion as there is already Bluestar 8 between Southampton and Calshot. It might be worth giving a link from Hedge End Station through to Hedge End High Street by covering Maunsell Way.

It would have to be maintained - my bets are this will become the 15. (See above)

- BS 16 (Townhill & Midanbury - Bitterne - City Centre) is a slightly tricky one because you can't, I don't think, replace FS 7 along Oak Tree Road without dropping another part of the circuit. Perhaps the only solution would be a replacement route which follows the exact same route as the FS 7 but that would mean loss of the link to Bitterne Shops.

I think they'd need to have two Townhill Park routes, perhaps one anticlockwise and one clockwise round the loop, i.e. the 16 and the traditional route via Portswood (my bets for that one is that it will become the 14, restoring an old route number used in the 90s). There have always, back to at least 1989, been at least two Townhill Park routes in any case, one via Portswood (the 3A/14, then the 3, then the 7) and one via Bitterne (the 8, then latterly the Bluestar 16).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Dec 2022 ==

I was thinking that the loop on the first 7 would be removed and it would run 'direct' via Cobden Avenue when combined with the current first 8. This would result in loss of some service in Bitterne Park

So do you mean Cobden Ave-Witts Hill-Woodmill Lane-Forest Hills Drive-Meggeson Avenue-Townhill Way-West End-Hedge End?

That would mean a significant degradation of service, with a very slow journey to Hedge End and the Oaktree Road area completely unserved.

Or do you mean Cobden Ave-Mousehole Lane-Townhill Way-West End-Hedge End, and up the 16 to a 10-min frequency to maintain a frequent service to Townhill Park? Again that has problems (as you say) there's a loss for Bitterne Park, and St Denys Road's service degrades from its traditional 10-minutely to half hourly on the 8 replacement.

As I said above, they really need two services to Townhill Park (the 16 and a Portswood service) and a West End/Hedge End.

Do Bluestar have enough vehicles to cover, or will some be drafted in from other Parts of Go South Coast? Their timetable seems to have returned to a similar service level as before Covid, although it has been over 3 years since I was living in Soton. I suppose it has been over 4 years since the Unilink fleet was replaced which did leave a surplus of buses.

My guess is that they would need quite a few others, albeit not quite as many as First currently use, as a common-fleet could allow inter-working. The timetable is still reduced compared to pre-Covid, e.g. the 1 and 2 are every 20 mins vice every 15, and the 9 is half-hourly vice every 20 mins.

 

[N1]

So do you mean Cobden Ave-Witts Hill-Woodmill Lane-Forest Hills Drive-Meggeson Avenue-Townhill Way-West End-Hedge End?

That would mean a significant degradation of service, with a very slow journey to Hedge End and the Oaktree Road area completely unserved.

Even shorter, Cobden Bridge - Cobden Avenue - Mousehole Lane - Townhill Way.

Yes this would be a significant reduction in service to the area.

A slower service covering more area would be Cobden Bridge - Manor Farm Rd/St Catherine's Rd - Oaktree Road - Forest Hills Drive - Meggeson Avenue - Townhill Way.

You are right that the 8 should really be fairly quick route to the city centre, and better via Bitterne, and a link from Townhill Park to Portswood should be retained, it is just whether that is feasible or not.

Running the 8 via Bitterne and Woolston/Sholing is probably better for killing two birds with one stone.

 

[nw1]

Even shorter, Cobden Bridge - Cobden Avenue - Mousehole Lane - Townhill Way.

Sorry, I edited my post later when I realised you might mean this. (This also is fraught with problems; upping the 16 frequency would help to some degree, but St Denys Road and Bitterne Park suffer a huge degradation unless you increase the frequency of the Hedge End to 15-minutely by running some short journeys as far as Chartwell Green roundabout. That could work, I guess).

Yes this would be a significant reduction in service to the area.

A slower service covering more area would be Cobden Bridge - Manor Farm Rd/St Catherine's Rd - Oaktree Road - Forest Hills Drive - Meggeson Avenue - Townhill Way.

You are right that the 8 should really be fairly quick route to the city centre, and better via Bitterne, and a link from Townhill Park to Portswood should be retained, it is just whether that is feasible or not.

Given the 7 and its predecessors have been well-loaded, and has been high frequency since at least 1989 (and probably since the 1960s) I don't see why it isn't feasible to keep the Townhill Park via Portswood. We are not talking about lightly-loaded rural services here, we are talking about high-frequency and well-used urban services. There really should be no excuse for completely cutting or significantly degrading such services. For one thing, slowing the journey and/or lessening the frequency will just mean less people using the bus, starting a vicious circle of decline. If there's anything which will wreck any green agenda to encourage more public transport use, it's these sorts of cuts to services.

There needs to be near like-for-like replacement on all routes other than those which completely duplicate an existing Bluestar route. Can't Bluestar buy some vehicles from First at a knock-down price?

Running the 8 via Bitterne and Woolston/Sholing is probably better for killing two birds with one stone.

Running the 8 replacement via Merry Oak/Woolston would be a reasonable solution, yes, just as long as a separate Harefield is retained. (I presume this is an alternative proposal to running the Hedge End via Portswood and Bitterne Park as discussed above?)