Through station at Liverpool

[BrianW]

If Liverpool to Dublin is feasible then why not Ilfracombe to Rosslare (its a similar distance). Liverpool really isn't that close to Ireland I'm afraid. Holyhead to Dublin on the other hand would be a decent idea in my view.

Maybe not in terms of miles. More 'Irish' in Liverpool?

 

[zwk500]

Maybe not in terms of miles. More 'Irish' in Liverpool?

But you don't have to dig a tunnel across the North Wales foreshore purely because of that. Liverpool's top 2 air routes are Belfast (c.500k) and Dublin (c.380k), 2018 numbers from Wikipedia. Neither of those annual numbers justify a much more technically challenging project of doubling the length of the tunnel and building a giant box underneath Liverpool city centre. An upgrade of the North Wales coast line to Holyhead would allow trains from Lime Street to serve the Liverpool-Ireland connection quite well, given most of it will stay on the plane unless radical carbon taxes come in.

 

[Philip]

How about some kind of 'fixed link' Dublin to the European 'mainland' via some kind of tax-free/ freeport/ 'hermetically sealed' arrangemnt non-stop (-ish!) through/ across UK- all paid for by the beneficiaries, ie EU?

And something similar for an 'independent' Scotland?

We should be trying to strengthen the links between Ireland and the UK rather than pushing Ireland further towards the European mainland. It is only because of brexit and Ireland doing so well out of the euro that they currently have the strong links with the rest of Europe. We (as in the UK) ought to be the 'big brother' of the ROI both culturally, socially and economically.

I don't think a tunnel to connect the railway systems is the best option but I do think more could be done to improve ferry transit, especially between Dublin and Holyhead/Liverpool. The HSS needs to be brought back into service and run at the speed and frequency it was originally, so that crossing the Irish Sea is a convenient 90 minute job rather than the infrequent 3-4 hour journey we currently have, of which half of the crossings leave port at a ridiculous time of day. I guess it would need a new vessel with more efficient engines so that fuel costs don't rocket with the ship. Then there needs to be some good value rail/sail advance tickets for connecting boat trains, along with standard price walk up tickets, all of which should be available to purchase easily through the usual channels.

 

[irish_rail]

Maybe not in terms of miles. More 'Irish' in Liverpool?

Let's be clear, the main "Irish" link with the Britain is London, not Liverpool, not by any means. Which is why flying will always win.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2022 ==

We should be trying to strengthen the links between Ireland and the UK rather than pushing Ireland further towards the European mainland. It is only because of brexit and Ireland doing so well out of the euro that they currently have the strong links with the rest of Europe. We (as in the UK) ought to be the 'big brother' of the ROI both culturally and economically.

I don't think a tunnel to connect the railway systems is the best option but I do think more could be done to improve ferry transit, especially between Dublin and Holyhead/Liverpool. The HSS needs to be brought back into service and run at the speed and frequency it was originally, so that crossing the Irish Sea is a convenient 90 minute job rather than the infrequent 3-4 hour journey we currently have, of which half of the crossings leave port at a ridiculous time of day. I guess it would need a new vessel with more efficient engines so that fuel costs don't rocket with the ship. Then there needs to be some good value rail/sail advance tickets for connecting boat trains, along with standard price walk up tickets, all of which should be available to purchase easily through the usual channels.

Agreed. Decent quick crossing to Dun Laoighe is needed again.

 

[Parjon]

If you want to beat a 30 minute flight then price and convenience need to hold up. For Dublin there's the opposite of political will to try.

Liverpool - Douglas - Belfast, however...

 

[zwk500]

We should be trying to strengthen the links between Ireland and the UK rather than pushing Ireland further towards the European mainland. It is only because of brexit and Ireland doing so well out of the euro that they currently have the strong links with the rest of Europe. We (as in the UK) ought to be the 'big brother' of the ROI both socially and economically.

You may be aware, there are cultural and historic reasons why the ROI is not too keen on being economically and socially dependant on the UK. Brexit is entirely the UK's fault, especially the right dog's dinner that's been made of it, and if that pushes Ireland more towards the EU appealing to Britannic paternalism is hardly likely to win any favours in Dublin.

I don't think a tunnel to connect the railway systems is the best option but I do think more could be done to improve ferry transit, especially between Dublin and Holyhead/Liverpool. The HSS needs to be brought back into service and run at the speed and frequency it was originally so that crossing the Irish Sea is a convenient 90 minute job rather than the infrequent 3-4 hour journey we currently have, of which half of the crossings leave port at a ridiculous time of day. I guess it would need a new vessel with more efficient engines so that fuel costs don't rocket with the ship. Then there needs to be some good value rail/sail advance tickets for connecting boat trains, along with standard price walk up tickets, all of which should be available to purchase through the usual channels.

Rail/Sale is going to continue to be a niche market and doesn't really justify special promotions or whatever, especially as the carbon impact of the ferry is horrific. If you want to improve the passenger market between GB and Ireland, you need to invest in next-generation short-haul aircraft. Also, a new ship is going to cost upwards of £100m, who's going to pay for it?

 

[Parjon]

Brexit is entirely the UK's fault,

Don't you mean "choice"?

If British "paternalism" is unhelpful, then anti-democratic derogatory comments about another country's legitimate, entirely peacefully made choices is what exactly?

 

[Philip]

Rail/Sale is going to continue to be a niche market and doesn't really justify special promotions or whatever, especially as the carbon impact of the ferry is horrific. If you want to improve the passenger market between GB and Ireland, you need to invest in next-generation short-haul aircraft. Also, a new ship is going to cost upwards of £100m, who's going to pay for it?

Rail/sail to Ireland was hardly a niche market in the 90s - it was very popular back then because the service was good; quick and frequent. Even when I last used the Holyhead-Dublin ferry just before the pandemic, the early afternoon crossing was very busy. A new HSS on the Dun Laoghaire route would strengthen UK-Ireland travel significantly, as it is much more convenient disembarking at Dun Laoghaire than using Dublin Port or Airport. Hopefully most of the cost of a greener vessel would eventually be paid for through ticket sales, if ferry travel sees a boom as a result of the improved service. The carbon footprint of air travel isn't particularly good either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It wasn't because it was that good. It was because flying was expensive. Then came Ryanair.

 

[zwk500]

Don't you mean "choice"?

If British "paternalism" is unhelpful, then anti-democratic derogatory comments about another country's legitimate, entirely peacefully made choices is what exactly?

FWIW, I'm British, I just happen to be on a year abroad in NL. I lived in the UK all my life until this summer, and voted in the EU referendum. It was indeed the UK's choice, and therefor the consequences of that choice are it's own fault. I'm not sure where I suggested that the Brexit referendum was held under thread of force, or indeed that it wasn't democratic. I voted, I lost, I got over it. If you're one of those people for whom sovereignty and borders was worth paying a price, I respect that as a personal opinion. But I'm allowed to point out it's had an undeniable negative economic impact.

Rail/sail to Ireland was hardly a niche market in the 90s - it was very popular back then because the service was good; quick and frequent. Even when I last used the Holyhead-Dublin ferry just before the pandemic, the early afternoon crossing was very busy. A new HSS on the Dun Laoghaire route would strengthen UK-Ireland travel significantly, as it is much more convenient disembarking at Dun Laoghaire than using Dublin Port or Airport. Hopefully most of the cost of a greener vessel would eventually be paid for through ticket sales, if ferry travel sees a boom as a result of the improved service. The carbon footprint of air travel isn't particularly good either.

Ryanair and Easyjet didn't exist in the 90s.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ryanair and Easyjet didn't exist in the 90s.

Well, they did, but I know what you’re trying to say!

incidentally EZY don’t fly to Dublin and I don’t think they ever have.

 

[Philip]

Ryanair and Easyjet didn't exist in the 90s.

People would probably be prepared to pay a bit more to use a good quality and convenient rail/sea service for travel to Ireland, compared with cheap but often stressful air journeys which entail all the faffing around at each end. And (diverging from rail/sail a bit) ferry travel has the rather big advantage over air in that you can take your own car to Ireland.

 

[zwk500]

Well, they did, but I know what you’re trying to say!

Fair point.

incidentally EZY don’t fly to Dublin and I don’t think they ever have.

No, but they do fly to Belfast, so still serving part of the Rail/Sail market, even if not Holyhead exactly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2022 ==

People would probably be prepared to pay a bit more to use a good quality and convenient rail/sea service for travel to Ireland, compared with cheap but often stressful air journeys; because of all the faffing around at each end.

The evidence suggests not. Of course that depends on your definition of 'a bit'. A London to Dublin Sailrail is £44.50 (https://rail.cc/train/london-to-dublin). Looking on Ryanair's website I can book basically any day in January Luton-Dublin for £15. So the current gap is about £30. How much closer does the gap need to be to tempt people over?

 

[Philip]

Fair point.

No, but they do fly to Belfast, so still serving part of the Rail/Sail market, even if not Holyhead exactly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2022 ==


The evidence suggests not. Of course that depends on your definition of 'a bit'. A London to Dublin Sailrail is £44.50 (https://rail.cc/train/london-to-dublin). Looking on Ryanair's website I can book basically any day in January Luton-Dublin for £15. So the current gap is about £30. How much closer does the gap need to be to tempt people over?

I'm sure that £15 doesn't include the cost of parking at the airport, or the rail fare to reach the airport, or the cost of a hire car/taxis in Ireland. I think the rail/sail option could get away with charging £20-30 more than the plane when considering the factors I've mentioned which give an advantage towards going by ferry.

 

[The Planner]

I'm sure that £15 doesn't include the cost of parking at the airport, or the rail fare to reach the airport, or the cost of a hire car/taxis in Ireland. I think the rail/sail option could get away with charging £20-30 more than the plane when considering the factors I've mentioned which give an advantage towards going by ferry.

You genuinely don't understand how people want to travel. The plane will win pretty much every time. How many people going to Dublin are going further afield? What about the cost of them getting to the station, parking etc? That applies to the train as well.

 

[mike57]

Holyhead to Dublin on the other hand would be a decent idea in my view.

I just cannot see how the economics would work, the Channel Tunnel cost around £20 billion at todays prices, and would probably cost twice that if construction was in progress now. An Anglo Irish fixed link over a practical (ruling out any route across the North Channel) route is roughly twice the distance, so that puts construction costs in the 60 - 80 billion range, possibly even a lot more. Then add a significant amount more for infrastructure at either end. To put it in perpective thats around £1000 for every man woman and child in the UK and Ireland. I just dont see how it could be funded. The Channel Tunnel has had a rocky ride at times financially, and thats nowhere near the cost of an Anglo Irish fixed link.

I think there would serious public disquiet about the hike in taxes that would be required to pay for it, some quick sums would indicate maybe 3p on income tax for 10 years as the sort of ball park impact, which means political suicide for any government proposing the idea.

 

[zwk500]

I just cannot see how the economics would work, the Channel Tunnel cost around £20 billion at todays prices, and would probably cost twice that if construction was in progress now. An Anglo Irish fixed link over a practical (ruling out any route across the North Channel) route is roughly twice the distance, so that puts construction costs in the 60 - 80 billion range, possibly even a lot more. Then add a significant amount more for infrastructure at either end. To put it in perpective thats around £1000 for every man woman and child in the UK and Ireland. I just dont see how it could be funded. The Channel Tunnel has had a rocky ride at times financially, and thats nowhere near the cost of an Anglo Irish fixed link.

I think there would serious public disquiet about the hike in taxes that would be required to pay for it, some quick sums would indicate maybe 3p on income tax for 10 years as the sort of ball park impact, which means political suicide for any government proposing the idea.

Also worth pointing out that the economic benefits of an Anglo-Irish fixed link would be much less than the Channel Tunnel. So not only is it more expensive, but it will also take longer to pay off pound-for-pound

 

[bib]

Wonder what it would cost to build a bridge/tunnel over the Dee estuary so you could go Liverpool - wirral - north wales without going via chester, looks like it would be about twice the length of the 2nd severn crossing. Might need the population of Rhyl to increase 30x before it would be worth it I imagine.

 

[Trainbike46]

We should be trying to strengthen the links between Ireland and the UK rather than pushing Ireland further towards the European mainland. It is only because of brexit and Ireland doing so well out of the euro that they currently have the strong links with the rest of Europe. We (as in the UK) ought to be the 'big brother' of the ROI both culturally, socially and economically.

I think you're missing some important historical context here.

I don't think a tunnel to connect the railway systems is the best option but I do think more could be done to improve ferry transit, especially between Dublin and Holyhead/Liverpool. The HSS needs to be brought back into service and run at the speed and frequency it was originally, so that crossing the Irish Sea is a convenient 90 minute job rather than the infrequent 3-4 hour journey we currently have, of which half of the crossings leave port at a ridiculous time of day. I guess it would need a new vessel with more efficient engines so that fuel costs don't rocket with the ship. Then there needs to be some good value rail/sail advance tickets for connecting boat trains, along with standard price walk up tickets, all of which should be available to purchase easily through the usual channels.

Improving some of the ferry and sailrail connections would be nice, definitely agreed on that. I do think sailrail should be advertised more, because the fact that you can buy train tickets to Belfast and Dublin is relatively unknown currently

 

[Parjon]

Rail/sail to Ireland was hardly a niche market in the 90s - it was very popular back then because the service was good; quick and frequent. Even when I last used the Holyhead-Dublin ferry just before the pandemic, the early afternoon crossing was very busy. A new HSS on the Dun Laoghaire route would strengthen UK-Ireland travel significantly, as it is much more convenient disembarking at Dun Laoghaire than using Dublin Port or Airport. Hopefully most of the cost of a greener vessel would eventually be paid for through ticket sales, if ferry travel sees a boom as a result of the improved service. The carbon footprint of air travel isn't particularly good either.

I remember buying a walk-up supersaver return from Chester to Dublin, for under £30. Twenty years or so ago it must have been. Not only a bargain, but how integrated to be able to have a standard br ticket that not only gets you to Holyhead and onto the stenna, but also onto the Dart into town at the other end from Dun Laoghaire.

It was a good service as well I agree. The fast catamaran was modern and decent inside. I remember we were delayed considerably coming back late at night due to bad weather, and they held the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The HSS did seem to have a lot of difficulty with bad weather making it unreliable, which isn't really viable for connecting with timed public transport, but that isn't necessarily universal with such vessels - the Isle of Man Steam Packet's catamaran Manannan seems to be able to handle very rough seas indeed (I've been on it in seas that were so bad you basically couldn't move around, even the crew distributing sick bags had to drop to the floor frequently so as not to fall over).

 

[Western Sunset]

I'd be amazed if they got as far as New Brighton...

 

[6Gman]

There'd be too much crossover with the Scottish independence thread, but these things are often done for ideological reasons, not because they make sense...

Reopening Carmarthen - Aber and Afon Wen - Menai Bridge say Hi!

 

[Bevan Price]

Why stop at Dublin? Keep on going until New York!

Then you might as well continue to Tokyo..................