Through station at Liverpool

[bringbackcrouc]

Everyone’s talking about a through station at Manchester for HS2 to link to a proper Northern Powerhouse Rail but what about building a through station at Liverpool to link to a through tunnel all the way to Dublin. How ridiculous is this?

 

[Verulamius]

Everyone’s talking about a through station at Manchester for HS2 to link to a proper Northern Powerhouse Rail but what about building a through station at Liverpool to link to a through tunnel all the way to Dublin. How ridiculous is this?

Why stop at Dublin? Keep on going until New York!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Everyone’s talking about a through station at Manchester for HS2 to link to a proper Northern Powerhouse Rail but what about building a through station at Liverpool to link to a through tunnel all the way to Dublin. How ridiculous is this?

Very.

 

[zwk500]

Everyone’s talking about a through station at Manchester for HS2 to link to a proper Northern Powerhouse Rail but what about building a through station at Liverpool to link to a through tunnel all the way to Dublin. How ridiculous is this?

If a tunnel to Dublin is ever going to be built, it'll be from Holyhead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If a tunnel to Dublin is ever going to be built, it'll be from Holyhead.

I can't see it ever happening without (a) us being back in the EU, and (b) the EU funding it. The cost would be immense, it's so much further than the Channel Tunnel.

 

[bringbackcrouc]

I suppose my question is really if we are contemplating upgrading Liverpool for HS2 and NPR should we be thinking now about passive provision for a further extension westward Ho!

 

[zwk500]

I can't see it ever happening without (a) us being back in the EU, and (b) the EU funding it. The cost would be immense, it's so much further than the Channel Tunnel.

Agree, hence the 'ever'. It'd be worth a hell of a lot more to Ireland than to the UK. It's c.50 miles undersea, so about 2.5x the undersea portion of the Chunnel, not considering landside tunnels to get to terminal locations. If built to permit through rail traffic between the two networks you'd also require investment on Crewe-Holyhead and the Dublin area rail network to tie the lines in, with the probably cost for that likely to be similar to the cost of the tunnel alone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose my question is really if we are contemplating upgrading Liverpool for HS2 and NPR should we be thinking now about passive provision for a further extension westward Ho!

Other than bluster there's no solid plan to do anything to Lime Street, if that's what you mean. And you aren't going to be randomly extending TransPennine Express to Dublin.

Plus as @zwk500 has said it'd be via Holyhead, not Liverpool.

Or possibly, if you consider a future that involves Ireland reunified and Scotland seceded and all of it in the EU, you could contemplate an Edinburgh-Glasgow-Stranraer*-Larne-Belfast-Dublin service.

* See, it might have a purpose. Though like the new line through Puttgarden it probably won't stop there.

 

[Trainbike46]

I suppose my question is really if we are contemplating upgrading Liverpool for HS2 and NPR should we be thinking now about passive provision for a further extension westward Ho!

and where exactly would you go westward from Liverpool? To Dublin doesn't make sense, you'd go from Holyhead for that. And there really isn't much else there other than sea

 

[mike57]

If built to permit through rail traffic between the two networks you'd also require investment on Crewe-Holyhead and the Dublin area rail network to tie the lines in, with the probably cost for that likely to be similar to the cost of the tunnel alone

Dont forget the break of gauge, not an insurmountable problem on its own but add that to the other challenges and it looks like a step too far currently

 

[Halifaxlad]

Everyone’s talking about a through station at Manchester for HS2 to link to a proper Northern Powerhouse Rail but what about building a through station at Liverpool to link to a through tunnel all the way to Dublin. How ridiculous is this?

The only part about an underground station in Manchester which is ridiculous is for it to face Leeds!

If we are going to talk about a tunneled Liverpool to Dublin link then any underground station in Manchester should be for extending HS2 onto Liverpool!

Obviously so it can then carryon to Dublin and then as someone else suggested New York

 

[zwk500]

Dont forget the break of gauge, not an insurmountable problem on its own but add that to the other challenges and it looks like a step too far currently

Break of gauge was included in the investment in the Dublin rail network - There's 3 main solutions: new standard-gauge line, variable gauge axles (most likely), and 3rd rail dual-gauge. Exactly which option is taken would determine what investment was needed.

 

[mike57]

Based on current usage of the various ferry services and air links how much rail traffic could be expected to use a fixed link. Assume you had a similar operation to the channel tunnel, with through passenger trains, a car/lorry shuttle and through freight. I cant see the economics of it being even close to being favourable. Bear in mind you are constructing something which is roughly twice the length of the Channel Tunnel, I cant imagine it gaining funding ahead of other infrastructure projects in even the long term. And if it were to be built would the benefits to either UK or the Irish Republic be significant, in reality I suspect not. For a similar amount of money I suspect you could electrify all major routes both sides of the Irish Channel, and that would deliver far more benefits.

 

[zwk500]

Based on current usage of the various ferry services and air links how much rail traffic could be expected to use a fixed link. Assume you had a similar operation to the channel tunnel, with through passenger trains, a car/lorry shuttle and through freight. I cant see the economics of it being even close to being favourable. Bear in mind you are constructing something which is roughly twice the length of the Channel Tunnel, I cant imagine it gaining funding ahead of other infrastructure projects in even the long term. And if it were to be built would the benefits to either UK or the Irish Republic be significant, in reality I suspect not. For a similar amount of money I suspect you could electrify all major routes both sides of the Irish Channel, and that would deliver far more benefits.

To be fair, the busiest Air route in both countries is London-Dublin, and Holyhead has been the second busiest UK port after Dover for a long time. Before the EU I think the projections would have looked quite good, although how many will use the 'land bridge' now with the paperwork involved is probably much smaller.
The benefits to the Irish Republic would certainly be significant, to the UK less so. Although benefits to both are badly hurt by not being part of the customs union. I agree that investment in existing links in both countries is likely to be more cost-effective.

 

[RailWonderer]

Stranraer to Belfast would be more likely if a tunnel was built.

 

[zwk500]

Stranraer to Belfast would be more likely if a tunnel was built.

No it wouldn't, the land side connections are much worse, the distance to the key economic centres is much greater, and the seabed hydrography is much more difficult. And there's also a vast amount of old munitions dumped in the North Channel.
I'd say Pembroke to Fishguard is more likely than Stranraer to Belfast but Holyhead will win every time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No it wouldn't, the land side connections are much worse, the distance to the key economic centres is much greater, and the seabed hydrography is much more difficult. And there's also a vast amount of old munitions dumped in the North Channel.
I'd say Pembroke to Fishguard is more likely than Stranraer to Belfast but Holyhead will win every time.

Unless of course England (and possibly Wales) end up on their own and the EU sees value in connecting Scotland to a united Ireland...

 

[chorleyjeff]

Unless of course England (and possibly Wales) end up on their own and the EU sees value in connecting Scotland to a united Ireland...

Would need buffers at Gretna Green and Berwick in that case - or customs arrangements at the next station both ways.

 

[zwk500]

Unless of course England (and possibly Wales) end up on their own and the EU sees value in connecting Scotland to a united Ireland...

The economic case for that would be absurd.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The economic case for that would be absurd.

There'd be too much crossover with the Scottish independence thread, but these things are often done for ideological reasons, not because they make sense...

 

[bringbackcrouc]

Could you not emerge to the west and join the line heading to Holyhead. I appreciate this would require some impressive tunnelling but you could have a northern powerhouse line that goes Dublin-Holyhead-Liverpool-Manchester—Leeds-Hull/Newcastle Northern Max Power House Line

 

[zwk500]

Could you not emerge to the west and join the line heading to Holyhead. I appreciate this would require some impressive tunnelling but you could have a northern powerhouse line that goes Dublin-Holyhead-Liverpool-Manchester—Leeds-Hull/Newcastle Northern Max Power House Line

I don't see another tunnel under the Mersey. You'd run Dublin-Holyhead-Chester and then trains would head either to Liverpool or Manchester

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could you not emerge to the west and join the line heading to Holyhead. I appreciate this would require some impressive tunnelling but you could have a northern powerhouse line that goes Dublin-Holyhead-Liverpool-Manchester—Leeds-Hull/Newcastle Northern Max Power House Line

Why on earth would you do that? This is beyond speculative, this is crayons.

 

[adamedwards]

Dublin - Holyhead - Chester - Liverpool South - Lime Street (reverse) - Manchester. After all, if Manchester HS2 trains have to reverse it's only fair to enforce that for Liverpool too!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

To be fair, the busiest Air route in both countries is London-Dublin, and Holyhead has been the second busiest UK port after Dover for a long time. Before the EU I think the projections would have looked quite good, although how many will use the 'land bridge' now with the paperwork involved is probably much smaller.
The benefits to the Irish Republic would certainly be significant, to the UK less so. Although benefits to both are badly hurt by not being part of the customs union. I agree that investment in existing links in both countries is likely to be more cost-effective.

Just to clarify this point is only true of passenger volume. When it comes to freight Holyhead isn't even in the UK top 10.

 

[zwk500]

Just to clarify this point is only true of passenger volume. When it comes to freight Holyhead isn't even in the UK top 10.

Ah, interesting. Thanks for pointing that out. Is that all freight or RO/RO?

 

[Trainbike46]

Ah, interesting. Thanks for pointing that out. Is that all freight or RO/RO?

It has to be all freight. There can't be 10 RoRo ports that transport more freight than Holyhead

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Ah, interesting. Thanks for pointing that out. Is that all freight or RO/RO?

Definitely all freight though the actual make-up varies from port to port eg Felixstowe and Southampton are overwhelmingly container ports whereas Grimsby/Immingham is mostly bulk handling.

 

[BrianW]

How about some kind of 'fixed link' Dublin to the European 'mainland' via some kind of tax-free/ freeport/ 'hermetically sealed' arrangemnt non-stop (-ish!) through/ across UK- all paid for by the beneficiaries, ie EU?

And something similar for an 'independent' Scotland?

 

[irish_rail]

If Liverpool to Dublin is feasible then why not Ilfracombe to Rosslare (its a similar distance). Liverpool really isn't that close to Ireland I'm afraid. Holyhead to Dublin on the other hand would be a decent idea in my view.