Train delayed due to excessive speeding

[MichaelTrains]

Interesting journey home from Leeds this evening when my train was held outside Leeds station for thirty minutes due to excessive speeding.

Is this a regular occurrence and how would the signal know to turn to red to stop the train from excessively speeding away on departing from Leeds?

The class of train was a 195, do they have smart computers that automatically tell the signal to stop the train?

 

[800001]

Interesting journey home from Leeds this evening when my train was held outside Leeds station for thirty minutes due to excessive speeding.

Is this a regular occurrence and how would the signal know to turn to red to stop the train from excessively speeding away on departing from Leeds?

The class of train was a 195, do they have smart computers that automatically tell the signal to stop the train?

Can you expand on this? How do you know it was doing excessive speed?

 

[bengley]

Sounds like the driver may have tripped a TPWS overspeed sensor. Nothing quite as advanced as you are making out. The delay would have been down to the train operator's control making a decision on whether the driver can continue.

 

[the sniper]

Sounds like the driver may have tripped a TPWS overspeed sensor. Nothing quite as advanced as you are making out. The delay would have been down to the train operator's control making a decision on whether the driver can continue.

Probably worth pointing out to the uninitiated that TPWS overspeed intervention/activation does not mean the train was 'speeding' in the road going sense, as in going higher than the linespeed.

 

[ashkeba]

Probably worth pointing out to the uninitiated that TPWS overspeed intervention/activation does not mean the train was 'speeding' in the road going sense, as in going higher that the linespeed.

It probably is. So can someone tell what it does mean, please?

 

[the sniper]

It probably is. So can someone tell what it does mean, please?

That a train has travelled in less time (more quickly) between an arming and trigger loop than it is anticipated a train would have needed in order to safely stop/slow for the associated risk, such as a signal at danger, permanent reduction in permissible linespeed or buffer stop.

That is not to say that is what has happened here.

 

[Recessio]

That a train has travelled in less time (more quickly) between an arming and trigger loop than it is anticipated a train would have needed in order to safely stop/slow for the associated risk, such as a signal at danger, permanent reduction in permissible linespeed or buffer stop.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand this. Why would the linespeed be any higher than the speed at which a train can "safely stop/slow for the associated risk"?

 

[the sniper]

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand this. Why would the linespeed be any higher than the speed at which a train can "safely stop/slow for the associated risk"?

..."such as a signal at danger, permanent reduction in permissible linespeed or buffer stop."

The linespeed could be 100mph and a train could travel at that speed with clear signals, but if the train is coming up on a red signal, it'll have needed to slow down...

 

[Recessio]

..."such as a signal at danger, permanent reduction in permissible linespeed or buffer stop."

The linespeed could be 100mph and a train could travel at that speed with clear signals, but if the train is coming up on a red signal, it'll have needed to slow down...

Oh that makes sense for red signals, but why permant speed restrictions or buffer stops? I don't understand why the speed limits wouldn't just be lowered?

Or is this for more for cases like e.g. The line may have a line speed of 50mph, but at the end of a line, past a certain point you need to have started slowing down to prevent hitting the buffer stop? But you don't have a series or progressively slower speed limits counting you down from 50mph to 40 to 10 etc for a buffer stop. (A countdown of signs from 10 to 1mph along the platform lol).

 

[66701GBRF]

*You don’t get progressively lower speeds as a count down on the railway. A drivers route knowledge is expected to know when to start braking and how much. You may have a linespeed of 100mph followed by a permanent speed restriction of 65mph. The TPWS for the restriction might be set at 75mph so if your train is doing 76mph it will trigger.

*not including routes with in-cab signalling.

 

[MichaelTrains]

Can you expand on this? How do you know it was doing excessive speed?

The conductor told us it was due to the driver excessively speeding away from Leeds station.

 

[dk1]

The conductor told us it was due to the driver excessively speeding away from Leeds station.

Activating a TPWS OSS approaching a red signal or PSR by the sounds of things. That will apply the emergency brake.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2022 ==

Im quite surprised the guard (if it was the one onboard the affected train) said it like that rather than just explain it as a signalling issue.

 

[DelW]

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand this. Why would the linespeed be any higher than the speed at which a train can "safely stop/slow for the associated risk"?

Thinking of a road analogy, you might have a rural road with a specific speed limit e.g. 50mph, but where some bends can't be taken safely at more than 30mph. It's up to drivers to be aware of that, rather than expecting the posted limit to be reduced to a lower value on the approach to each bend.

 

[MichaelTrains]

Activating a TPWS OSS approaching a red signal or PSR by the sounds of things. That will apply the emergency brake.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2022 ==

Im quite surprised the guard (if it was the one onboard the affected train) said it like that rather than just explaining it as a signalling issue.

He had to walk to the front cab and speak to the driver in person.

When we came out we asked why we were sitting outside the stadium for 30 minutes or so and he replied the driver was speeding away out of Leeds.

I've never experienced anything like that before. At first I thought we had gone through a red light the way the train suddenly came to a stop.

 

[dk1]

He had to walk to the front cab and speak to the driver in person.

When we came out we asked why we were sitting outside the stadium for 30 minutes or so and he replied the driver was speeding away out of Leeds.

I've never experienced anything like that before. At first I thought we had gone through a red light the way the train suddenly came to a stop.

Yes there is no choice in how you brake. It will be sharp. Not a very diplomatic guard by the sound of things

 

[skyhigh]

Interesting journey home from Leeds this evening when my train was held outside Leeds station for thirty minutes due to excessive speeding.

Which train was this, because after a quick look I can't see a single train which was held outside Leeds for 30 minutes all day (unless I'm missing something).

 

[LowLevel]

Yes there is no choice in how you brake. It will be sharp. Not a very diplomatic guard by the sound of things

Tis Yorkshire, tha knows!

 

[pdeaves]

Possibly also worth adding (in a general case) that the track the train is on might have a 100mph restriction, but the diverging route may be 50mph. Thus a train can (depending on intended route) do more than 50mph on the approach and isn't 'speeding' in the official sense.

 

[dk1]

Tis Yorkshire, tha knows!

Aye

 

[AVK17]

If the guard really told passengers (whether by announcment or face to face) the remarks reported in posts 11 and 14 then that’s completely unacceptable and unprofessional, and they need to be hauled into the office and spoken to.

 

[sw1ller]

“Speeding away from Leeds station”. How far away were you? Because by the way the guard spoke to you, sounds like he was very flustered too, so my assumption from what’s been said is both driver and guard have had a SPAD. (As have dispatch staff). But I don’t know Leeds at all, there’s a good chance there was a speed restriction out the station. I’m only saying this as it’s a weird thing to say to a passenger as it could easily make passengers nervous. (There’s no need to be of course, the safety systems in this case have clearly worked whatever happened).

 

[800001]

“Speeding away from Leeds station”. How far away were you? Because by the way the guard spoke to you, sounds like he was very flustered too, so my assumption from what’s been said is both driver and guard have had a SPAD. (As have dispatch staff). But I don’t know Leeds at all, there’s a good chance there was a speed restriction out the station. I’m only saying this as it’s a weird thing to say to a passenger as it could easily make passengers nervous. (There’s no need to be of course, the safety systems in this case have clearly worked whatever happened).

By what the guard allegedly said I get no assumption of a spad.

As people have said above a tpws grid may be set at say 30mph, the driver in question may of been doing 31mph, that would be enough to trigger a tpws activation and bring the train to a stand.

Also, the Likely hood, of a driver, guard and platform staff all despatching a train against a red signal are virtually none.

 

[LowLevel]

“Speeding away from Leeds station”. How far away were you? Because by the way the guard spoke to you, sounds like he was very flustered too, so my assumption from what’s been said is both driver and guard have had a SPAD. (As have dispatch staff). But I don’t know Leeds at all, there’s a good chance there was a speed restriction out the station. I’m only saying this as it’s a weird thing to say to a passenger as it could easily make passengers nervous. (There’s no need to be of course, the safety systems in this case have clearly worked whatever happened).

That sounds like a very unlikely scenario.

Having a Start Against The Signal SPAD at a location like Leeds would be an extremely unusual and serious irregularity.

Far more likely is running on restrictive aspects towards one of the many junctions in the area and tripping the TPWS.

 

[Nottingham59]

the 2319h departure to Bradford and Victoria got seriously delayed last night just after leaving Leeds on time.

Realtime Trains | 1J09 2319 Leeds to Manchester Victoria | 27/11/2022

Real-time train running information for 1J09 2319 departure from Leeds to Manchester Victoria on 27/11/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Snow1964]

Without knowing details, possible that driver exceeded limit, or there was a calibration error (eg speedo showing say 30mph but actually doing 32mph

If accelerating away from somewhere busy like Leeds could of been on a reversible line and equipment wasn't quite right in direction of travel, so tripped anyway thinking train going other way.

 

[sw1ller]

That sounds like a very unlikely scenario.

Having a Start Against The Signal SPAD at a location like Leeds would be an extremely unusual and serious irregularity.

Far more likely is running on restrictive aspects towards one of the many junctions in the area and tripping the TPWS.

Sounds serious too, as there was a 30 minute delay. Seen them done at similar sized stations. I can’t think why a TPWS would trip if the train LEAVES a station too quickly other than for a spad though. Hence my first question being, how far from the station were they. But I haven’t got a clue so I won’t argue.

 

[skyhigh]

the 2319h departure to Bradford and Victoria got seriously delayed last night just after leaving Leeds on time.

Realtime Trains | 1J09 2319 Leeds to Manchester Victoria | 27/11/2022

Real-time train running information for 1J09 2319 departure from Leeds to Manchester Victoria on 27/11/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The OP claims they were held for 30 minutes outside of Leeds. That train wasn't. According to what I can see it also wasn't delayed due to an overspeed, but due to a fault with the TPWS.

So if it was that train, the OP was stretching the truth a little to suggest that they were held for 30 mins, and I also wouldn't totally believe the claims about what the guard had said...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2022 ==

I can’t think why a TPWS would trip if the train LEAVES a station too quickly other than for a spad though. Hence my first question being, how far from the station were they. But I haven’t got a clue so I won’t argue.

Looking at the RTT link above, assuming it was that train, it would have been the third signal out of Leeds that would have been involved. Green at the platform end, then single yellow and red. Both the yellow and red in this instance are fitted with overspeeds to protect against a SPAD and the red in particular is a known read across risk. There are no overspeeds out of Leeds to enforce the 25mph speed restriction. But as far as I can see the train was stopped by a fault rather than a correct overspeed intervention.

 

[sw1ller]

The OP claims they were held for 30 minutes outside of Leeds. That train wasn't. According to what I can see it also wasn't delayed due to an overspeed, but due to a fault with the TPWS.

So if it was that train, the OP was stretching the truth a little to suggest that they were held for 30 mins, and I also wouldn't totally believe the claims about what the guard had said...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2022 ==


Looking at the RTT link above, assuming it was that train, it would have been the third signal out of Leeds that would have been involved. Green at the platform end, then single yellow and red. Both the yellow and red in this instance are fitted with overspeeds to protect against a SPAD and the red in particular is a known read across risk. There are no overspeeds out of Leeds to enforce the 25mph speed restriction. But as far as I can see the train was stopped by a fault rather than a correct overspeed intervention.

Thanks for the information. In that case then, I wholeheartedly agree with post #26

 

[DevilSpawner66]

What happened anyway? Class 195 speeding? not like Northern to be doing that. Oh well, as long as there are no major delays, i'm sure it would be fine. To be honest, i wonder if trains get tickets for speeding?

 

[MichaelTrains]

The conductor and the driver saw the funny side. We could hear them in the front cab laughing.

The train did appear to be flying out of Leeds and then came to a very abrupt stop.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2022 ==

the 2319h departure to Bradford and Victoria got seriously delayed last night just after leaving Leeds on time.

Realtime Trains | 1J09 2319 Leeds to Manchester Victoria | 27/11/2022

Real-time train running information for 1J09 2319 departure from Leeds to Manchester Victoria on 27/11/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

That's the train.

It added an extra thirty minutes to my journey time.

Which wasn't for the best because N-Dubz had been playing in Leeds and the train was full with people standing.