Greater Anglia Bombardier Aventras (Class 720): Technical discussion and introduction

[JonathanH]

So you agree that 20 units are superfluous? Or some lesser number?

Based on the weekend operation, yes.

In terms of weekdays, isn't the point that multiple peak extra trains don't run any more, so there is scope in the fleet to run more 10-coach trains even without 20 units? For example, there aren't trains every ten minutes from Liverpool Street to Southend, and no need to run as many fast services to Cambridge.

The balancing act is where services are tight as a single 720.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Based on the weekend operation, yes.

In terms of weekdays, isn't the point that multiple peak extra trains don't run any more, so there is scope in the fleet to run more 10-coach trains even without 20 units? For example, there aren't trains every ten minutes from Liverpool Street to Southend, and no need to run as many fast services to Cambridge.

The balancing act is where services are tight as a single 720.

Remember the idea of 3 tph Norwich to Liverpool Street initially, along with the less peak trains you can see the excess comes from

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That really calls into question why the order wasn't truncated at the same time the 22 10-car units were changed to 5-car units. It has been obvious for some time that all 133 wouldn't be needed - I hope they aren't built just to sit in a siding but there really isn't anywhere else they can go.

They are 25kV go anywhere units all we need is a national rolling stock strategy to best coordinate how best to deploy the rolling stock we have not just left to each TOC to decide.

There allegedly too many 701's as well and no doubt too many 730's so its farcical any operator is being allowed to seek new trains currently.

 

[JonathanH]

I think I have for haulage all of those already commissioned - unless I've missed any?

...and yes, I know the c2c ones now go up to 12; I haven't updated the list yet.

720507 was back end of one of the four pairs of 720s on hourly Liverpool Street to Colchester trains today (521+546, 560+568, 578+507, 577+523). Three cycles on hourly Southend services (580+575, 512+527, 111+515).

 

[GeoffS]

Not GA I know, but does anyone happen to know please which 720/6 made mainline test runs with 609 on Weds? Crossed both ways while travelling from London to Leighton Buzzard and back early p.m. Am
fairly sure it was a 61X, which doesn't leave many possibilities with 611 stabled at Wembley!

As for the GA situation, with only 30 Renatus 321s to be replaced and around 50 720s of those ordered still to enter service, it is easy to see now that there is likely to be a surplus. Also with 2 720s (10-car) effectively replacing 3 321s (12-car).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

720507 was back end of one of the four pairs of 720s on hourly Liverpool Street to Colchester trains today (521+546, 560+568, 578+507, 577+523). Three cycles on hourly Southend services (580+575, 512+527, 111+515).

Thanks... has 720 507 entered service within the last few days, and is that the only one I haven't got that's currently in service?

 

[Shwam3]

Thanks... has 720 507 entered service within the last few days, and is that the only one I haven't got that's currently in service?

507 was accepted last Monday so likely entered service in the last week.

 

[Wivenswold]

Interesting that the 90% figure is off-peak. As background to the comments about working from home being here to stay; absolutely. In 2015 I had desks in our London and Chelmsford offices, in London the department I was in was spread over 4 floors, now it's on one and it's all "hot-desking". All of my colleagues work from home at least 2 days per week. I have a chronic condition, at first it was difficult to convince them of the benefits of working from home, now they're happy to see me once a month. The world of office work has changed forever.

So it does look as though GA and other TOCs are going to have to rethink their timetables. It's a very healthy sign for the railways if off-peak leisure travel is increasing balancing-out the post-pandemic loss of business travel.

As for the 720s. I guess the loss of 3 tph on the Norwich services and (I assume) the loss of the Norwich in 90 service reduces the peak unit requirement. There's some spare capacity in the Stadler Bi-mode fleet too which may have been a deciding factor. 30 new 720s to replace 28 Class 321s should do the trick.
LTS would be silly not to snap up the remaining 20, bolster their fleet and increase seating capacity on an "at capacity" route. Replacing some of the oldest batch of Electrostars which in turn can sit in sidings waiting for a new national railways plan on electrification before being scrapped anyway. Sorted.

 

[Babybirdrobin]

is it full width on these units?

As far as I know the height is but it curves in at the bottom - from my experiences riding them

Nope, the bays according to the Anglia Sectional Appendix are around 110m, whereas a 5 car 720 is 122m. There is virtually no room at the country end to move the points and extend the platforms out as there is an under bridge which would have to be widened. You could demolish one or other of the station buildings at London to extend though or terminate in one of the through platforms and run London services through the other. Though with 4tph each way that could be a recipe for delays!

Disappointing as they knocked down our Victorian station build to ”extend” the Southminster line - officially known as the Crouch Valley line - bay platform - number 1 - and they don‘t have planning permission for the new station at the time of demolition in May 2021

 

[Peter Sarf]

As far as I know the height is but it curves in at the bottom - from my experiences riding them

Disappointing as they knocked down our Victorian station build to ”extend” the Southminster line - officially known as the Crouch Valley line - bay platform - number 1 - and they don‘t have planning permission for the new station at the time of demolition in May 2021

My bold. That is a reply to an early post circa 2017 and I think related to the 10-car 720s which are now to be 2 x 5-car.

Your second paragraph refers to a post from 2018. I wonder what progress, if any, has been made since.

 

[MDB1images]

Anyone got an exact date for when 720507 entered service?

 

[Wivenswold]

Anyone got an exact date for when 720507 entered service?

First confirmed day in service I've seen on the many Gen forums is 31/10/22.

 

[JonathanH]

First confirmed day in service I've seen on the many Gen forums is 31/10/22.

That doesn't seem consistent with post 2137 that says it was accepted on Monday. Saturday wasn't its first day as the working started at Colchester so must be some time during the last week.

 

[warwickshire]

That doesn't seem consistent with post 2137 that says it was accepted on Monday. Saturday wasn't its first day as the working started at Colchester so must be some time during the last week.

720507 was in service this morning with another 720. Remember it London Liverpool Street buffer end. Ie London end approximately around 820 am ish.
Didn't get the other 720 it was with.
However most certainly was in service today Monday 28th November 2022. On a am peak service from somewhere as a 10 car.

 

[fat_boy_pete]

Apparently I've read that peak time levels are around 70% pre-covid, off peak around 95-100% with an overall figure of 85%. The problem is that timetables are still planned around the peak, when a more even all day capacity is now needed. Hence reports of weekend over crowding.

I've just seen more accurate figures from the Modern Railways expo about ticket revenue. This says:

Business travel is at 37%; commuting at 59%; and leisure travel 115% of pre pandemic levels.

Sundays are at 115%; Saturdays 105%; Tuesdays/Wednesdays/Thursdays are at 82-83%; and Mondays/Fridays are at 78-79% of pre pandemic levels.

This was from the Passenger Revenue director of the GBR Transition team, so I assume she is the oracle here. Therefore I wonder when train planning teams will respond accordingly to reduce costs at peak and increase weekend capacity.

From https://busandtrainuser.com/2022/11/27/growing-rail-revenue/#more-39489

To keep this on topic, I presume this confirms that the full number of 720 units won't be needed for a peak capacity that won't arise.

 

[Shwam3]

Anyone got an exact date for when 720507 entered service?

That doesn't seem consistent with post 2137 that says it was accepted on Monday. Saturday wasn't its first day as the working started at Colchester so must be some time during the last week.

I misread my calendar, it was actually accepted on Friday 18/11/2022. The first recorded service was 1K17 Southend - London on Tuesday 22/11/2022.

 

[Wivenswold]

Excellent. Thanks for clearing-up that little mess Shwam3

 

[306024]

I've just seen more accurate figures from the Modern Railways expo about ticket revenue. This says:

Business travel is at 37%; commuting at 59%; and leisure travel 115% of pre pandemic levels.

Sundays are at 115%; Saturdays 105%; Tuesdays/Wednesdays/Thursdays are at 82-83%; and Mondays/Fridays are at 78-79% of pre pandemic levels.

This was from the Passenger Revenue director of the GBR Transition team, so I assume she is the oracle here. Therefore I wonder when train planning teams will respond accordingly to reduce costs at peak and increase weekend capacity.

From https://busandtrainuser.com/2022/11/27/growing-rail-revenue/#more-39489

To keep this on topic, I presume this confirms that the full number of 720 units won't be needed for a peak capacity that won't arise.

Increasing weekend capacity is fine if it is simply making trains longer to meet demand. But as seen in other threads there are all sorts of crewing issues with weekend services already, before considering adding additional services.

On GA the new fleet represents an increase in capacity on all lines, while the SX peak on the GEML is less than pre Covid. Hence the emerging story of spare 720s. The GA train planning team have been constantly juggling the timetable in the peaks, in between actually introducing the new fleet and writing strike timetables.

 

[47584Suffolk]

I misread my calendar, it was actually accepted on Friday 18/11/2022. The first recorded service was 1K17 Southend - London on Tuesday 22/11/2022.

I've read a report elsewhere that 720507's first service working was 05:45 Shenfield to Braintree/07:00 Braintree to Liverpool St on Monday 21/11/22. Trainlogger confirms it was out that day as it was seen at Bethnal Green.

720513 was accepted by GA on Friday 25/11. Recorded on se-gen that it was out yesterday (Tu 29/11), starting with 05:25 Hertford East to Liv St, but can any kind soul please advise whether it was also in service on Monday 28/11? If so, for the record, what was its first passenger working? Many advanced thanks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Nov 2022 ==

I've read a report elsewhere that 720507's first service working was 05:45 Shenfield to Braintree/07:00 Braintree to Liverpool St on Monday 21/11/22. Trainlogger confirms it was out that day as seen at Bethnal Green.

720513 was accepted by GA on Friday 25/11. Recorded on se-gen that it was out yesterday (Tu 29/11), starting with 05:25 Hertford East to Liv St, but can any kind soul please advise whether it was also in service on Monday 28/11? If so, for the record, what was its first passenger working? Many advanced thanks.

P.S. On cross-checking with RTT, train for 05:25 ex Hertford East is off previous late evening's 23:42 ex Liverpool St, then stables, so 720513 must have been in service on Monday. Assuming all went to plan, I've tracked it back to 5H48 15:25 ecs Cambridge Sidings North to Liv St but cannot go back further with any certainty.

 

[455824]

Which one are at Wembley today

 

[Poyntz]

Which one are at Wembley today

Another site has pic of 541 being towed south on 15th?

 

[Wivenswold]

So, recap time. /5s at Alstom AFAIK 502/510/516/534
518/543/116 on WCML mileage runs.
541/118 at Wembley, possibly now at Ilford.
513/583/114 at Ilford awaiting service.

They're coming thick and fast, there's probably some slack in the 321 fleet now. EDIT - Just checked, 30 Aventras to enter service (or 50 if they're taking all the trains they ordered)

503/504/505/508/509/519/544, by deduction, are possibly still at Worksop.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

So, recap time. /5s at Alstom AFAIK 502/510/516/534
518/543/116 on WCML mileage runs.
541/118 at Wembley, possibly now at Ilford.
513/583/114 at Ilford awaiting service.

They're coming thick and fast, there's probably some slack in the 321 fleet now. EDIT - Just checked, 30 Aventras to enter service (or 50 if they're taking all the trains they ordered)

503/504/505/508/509/519/544, by deduction, are possibly still at Worksop.

Only suggestion i saw of changes to order was an article in MR many months back when there was a suggestion of creating a subfleet for Stansted services to allow the 745/a's to be redeployed to GE side.

 

[JonathanH]

543

Should that be 534 on WCML mileage runs? 543 has been in service for at least 18 months.

 

[450.emu]

Have any of the 720s worked the Walton on the Naze branch line yet?

 

[warwickshire]

Have any of the 720s worked the Walton on the Naze branch line yet?

Yes. Mainly at weekends Saturday one diagram has been for a while. Sometimes Sunday. But in the main Saturdays does see one diagrammed to it.

 

[60159]

So, recap time. /5s at Alstom AFAIK 502/510/516/534
518/543/116 on WCML mileage runs.
541/118 at Wembley, possibly now at Ilford.
513/583/114 at Ilford awaiting service.

They're coming thick and fast, there's probably some slack in the 321 fleet now. EDIT - Just checked, 30 Aventras to enter service (or 50 if they're taking all the trains they ordered)

503/504/505/508/509/519/544, by deduction, are possibly still at Worksop.

According to Today’ Railways. Old Dolby has none with 518 and 519 going to Derby tho’ you say 518 on mileage runs.
544 seen in Derby according to post 2086. 502 and 510 reported at Worksop end June so may have been moved to Derby like 544.
101-104 reported at Derby end June.
The end June is a report from Today’s Railways.
513 in service.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Have any of the 720s worked the Walton on the Naze branch line yet?

All parts of the network have been served either by an Aventra or Flirt now.

 

[60159]

According to Today’ Railways. Old Dolby has none with 518 and 519 going to Derby tho’ you say 518 on mileage runs.
544 seen in Derby according to post 2086. 502 and 510 reported at Worksop end June so may have been moved to Derby like 544.
101-104 reported at Derby end June.
The end June is a report from Today’s Railways.
513 in service.

Checking past copies of Today’s Railways 502 and 544 have moved to Derby but I can’t see any record of 510 moving.
It suggests 503-505, and 509/10 are only 5 still at Worksop tho’ may have been recent movements.
So I think 502, 508, 516, 519, 534 and 544 are at Derby if 518 on mileage accumulation.
Could easily be wrong so any correction much appreciated.

 

[Mikey C]

A Class 720 appears in one of the current ITV4 channel idents! I can't quite read the station name

ITV4 : 2022 Idents : Train Station ident

Train Station ident.

theident.gallery