Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

[Typhoon]

Or parrot their usual, ‘but if Corbyn had been in charge...’ line, as if something that didn’t happen excuses everything they caused to happen.

If Corbyn had been in charge the priority would not have been to make the rich richer! Whatever Corbyn's failings (too many to list), at least he would have tried to help those that needed help. Truss and Kwarteng made little or no such effort.
The likes of MacMillan would have been turning in their grave (even Thatcher would be proclaiming 'No, No, No' because of the sheer irresponsibility of it all).

I notice that one of the 'Unchained' crew, Skidmore, is standing down next time. https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...tep-down-at-next-general-election/ar-AA14ACMU

She was the party members' choice. So they have nobody but themselves to hold responsible for that mess.

Absolutely. Unfortunately parties keep making the same mistake, elect the unelectable, and Truss was/ is certainly that

 

[jfollows]

I also don't hold our government blameless for the war in Ukraine.

Of course, the blame is primarily elsewhere, but I can have the wisdom of hindsight and see that different actions in the past by our government and others may have prevented what's happened. I also don't allow our government to have the wisdom of hindsight - saying (as Michael Howard once did) that if they knew then what they now know they'd have done things differently isn't acceptable to me. Our governments have resources that we don't have to ensure that they don't make mistakes.

So when they do make mistakes, they're responsible for them, in part anyway. And therefore in part to blame.

That's the way it is, that's the way the electorate will - in the main - view things. The opposition will gain by default as a result. It was ever thus.

 

[nw1]

If Corbyn had been in charge the priority would not have been to make the rich richer! Whatever Corbyn's failings (too many to list), at least he would have tried to help those that needed help. Truss and Kwarteng made little or no such effort.
The likes of MacMillan would have been turning in their grave (even Thatcher would be proclaiming 'No, No, No' because of the sheer irresponsibility of it all).

I notice that one of the 'Unchained' crew, Skidmore, is standing down next time. https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...tep-down-at-next-general-election/ar-AA14ACMU

Ah, the "fifth Beatle", so to speak.

Kingswood strikes me as the kind of seat quite likely to flip next time, so no surprise there.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2022 ==

But with a hint of '74 (but much worse). As Heath found in '74 (and Callaghan in '79) strikes are blamed as much on the government as on the strikers.

In fact "blaming strikes on the strikers" is itself very controversial, as people generally don't strike just for a laugh.

 

[GS250]

I agree with both of you. I’m a conservative (note use of a small c!) but I’m not so tribal and bloody-minded as to oppose those on the left purely for the sake of it. Indeed there are left-wing contributors to this thread who make some very good points. Unfortunately the wider debate is dominated by extremists of both denominations, and people with differing views are painted as the enemy (literally in some cases). The media absolutely love this and actively encourage it. It’s hugely damaging to our society and I actually find it rather worrying.

Totally agree. Overall I lean to the right but am certainly not wedded to any particular party and certainly not the Tories.

The divide you speak about is alive and kicking amongst staff at my place of employment, a large private school. Certainly a lot of traditional 'Tory Boy' types about as you would expect at a private school. Equally a number of fairly hard liberal leftists about. Surely that sits rather uncomfortably with a fee paying school but to them it's just a job. Political discussion has been barred from the coffee lounge as at times it's simply gotten too heated. Neither party ever wanted to give an inch.

My conclusion though is that it's well known all participants above come from fairly or wealthy backgrounds. Virtually all went to private school. Used to getting their way maybe? Given that extra confidence to speak their mind? However empathy is a wonderful thing and it's sadly lacking.

 

[birchesgreen]

The divide you speak about is alive and kicking at my place of employment, a large private school. Certainly a lot of traditional 'Tory Boy' types about as you would expect at a private school. Equally a number of fairly hard liberal leftists about. Surely that sits rather uncomfortably with a fee paying school but to them it's just a job. Political discussion has been barred from the coffee lounge as at times it's simply gotten too heated. Neither party ever wanted to give an inch.

Not really was their decision though was it?

 

[GS250]

Not really was their decision though was it?

Ammended to 'amongst staff' above.

 

[birchesgreen]

Ammended to 'amongst staff' above.

OK makes sense

 

[Gloster]

I have to say that when I was at a (then) fairly well-known public school in the mid-1970s, most of the masters were softish Conservatives, possibly a bit to the right of Heath, but nothing like as extreme as the current day party seems to be. There were a couple of ‘lefties’, although that could merely mean they tended towards the Liberals, but they tended to move on after a few years. In two cases they had enlarged their experience by teaching in a public school, but did not want to spend their career in one. On the opposite side we did have a few masters who were very much out on the far right of the then Conservative party, if not beyond. I hesitate to call them fascist, but they came pretty close. And they seemed to fit in with the rest of the masters in a way that the lefties did not.

 

[Typhoon]

Ah, the "fifth Beatle", so to speak.

Kingswood strikes me as the kind of seat quite likely to flip next time, so no surprise there.

From what he says, it appears that Kingswood is a victim of boundary changes.

 

[nw1]

From what he says, it appears that Kingswood is a victim of boundary changes.

Ah, so presumably half will become solid Labour and half will join the Rees-Mogg Empire.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2022 ==

I have to say that when I was at a (then) fairly well-known public school in the mid-1970s, most of the masters were softish Conservatives, possibly a bit to the right of Heath, but nothing like as extreme as the current day party seems to be. There were a couple of ‘lefties’, although that could merely mean they tended towards the Liberals, but they tended to move on after a few years. In two cases they had enlarged their experience by teaching in a public school, but did not want to spend their career in one. On the opposite side we did have a few masters who were very much out on the far right of the then Conservative party, if not beyond. I hesitate to call them fascist, but they came pretty close. And they seemed to fit in with the rest of the masters in a way that the lefties did not.

I also went to a private school (parents' decision, obviously - though to be fair it was an academically good place) in the 80s.

It's hard to know the persuasions of the teachers, but a few were obviously pretty right wing (including one notable authoritarian who gave me a series of detentions for messy writing in an exam, despite achieving something like 63%), a few were distinctly liberal (one very nice lady educated us all about the horrors of Pinochet in an RE lesson [at that time - aged about 16 - RE was mostly about social issues and less about religion], and one biology teacher was, in retrospect, a great guy) but the majority, it had to be said, seemed pretty politically neutral.

 

[najaB]

Of course, the blame is primarily elsewhere, but I can have the wisdom of hindsight and see that different actions in the past by our government and others may have prevented what's happened. I also don't allow our government to have the wisdom of hindsight - saying (as Michael Howard once did) that if they knew then what they now know they'd have done things differently isn't acceptable to me. Our governments have resources that we don't have to ensure that they don't make mistakes.

That's not entirely fair, IMO. While it's true that the Government has access to info and resources that the average person does not, nobody can yet accurately predict the future 100% of the time.

No doubt they received advice that Russia would invade Ukraine and contrary advice that said that it was all a bluff. At the end of the day it comes down to someone/bodies having to evaluate all the advice they've been given and decide which they believe is more likely to come to pass. Those people are human and as such perfection is an unreasonable expectation.

 

[brad465]

Hancock has finished third...and breathe.

 

[WizCastro197]

Hancock has finished third...and breathe.

In through the nose and out through the mouth. Deep breaths

I sort of wanted to see him win but I am glad he will be retuning to his constituents that have probably all vilified him quite rightly now as he just abandoned them in a complete crisis. Complete opposite of intégrity .

 

[GS250]

Either way the thought process behind getting him in backfired badly. He proved himself to be far more capable a person than some of those one dimensional clebs.

 

[Thirteen]

I'm not a fan of Matt Hancock the politician but he came across a lot better than the likes of Boy George, Chris Moyles etc the fact he got stuck in is he got to the final 3.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Either way the thought process behind getting him in backfired badly. He proved himself to be far more capable a person than some of those one dimensional clebs.

How has it backfired? It's worked out well for the tv producers, who've likely attracted more viewers and publicity thanks to having Matt Hancock in the show. And from the accounts I've read Matt Hancock seems to have done OK out of it in terms of publicity. So it looks like all the people involved with choosing to have Matt Hancock on the show have got what they would have wanted.

(Obviously not good for Hancock's constituents who have been effectively without an MP for a few weeks, so I'd still argue he shouldn't have done it).

 

[Busaholic]

Ah, so presumably half will become solid Labour and half will join the Rees-Mogg Empire.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2022 ==



I also went to a private school (parents' decision, obviously - though to be fair it was an academically good place) in the 80s.

It's hard to know the persuasions of the teachers, but a few were obviously pretty right wing (including one notable authoritarian who gave me a series of detentions for messy writing in an exam, despite achieving something like 63%), a few were distinctly liberal (one very nice lady educated us all about the horrors of Pinochet in an RE lesson [at that time - aged about 16 - RE was mostly about social issues and less about religion], and one biology teacher was, in retrospect, a great guy) but the majority, it had to be said, seemed pretty politically neutral.

A lady teacher? Could they not find a defrocked vicar like at my school, rather than go to such extremes...

Biology didn't exist as a subject at my school, but then the earth only having existed for approx 2,000 years at that point made the subject irrelevant.

 

[brad465]

Seeing Gina Coladangelo turn up to greet him almost reconstructed the image that ended his time as Health Secretary, and showed that for all the bushtucker trials he did, they were not the worst thing he'd tasted.

 

[nw1]

A lady teacher? Could they not find a defrocked vicar like at my school, rather than go to such extremes...

Biology didn't exist as a subject at my school, but then the earth only having existed for approx 2,000 years at that point made the subject irrelevant.

We had lots. Our school was quite broad-minded in many ways, though there were a few unpleasant authoritarians.

One of the worst was the games teacher, who berated me for bringing in a sick note when I had a cold in February 1986. If you don't know what was notable weather-wise about that month, google it.

But most were really quite pleasant and some were very nice.

 

[43096]

One of the worst was the games teacher, who berated me for bringing in a sick note when I had a cold in February 1986. If you don't know what was notable weather-wise about that month, google it.

You do know that you don’t catch a cold from it being cold outside, don’t you?

 

[Ediswan]

Sometimes their grasp of the English language worries me. Tonight we have Iain Duncan Smith referring to something as "A tautology, a contradiction in terms" (C4 News).

 

[Typhoon]

Sometimes their grasp of the English language worries me. Tonight we have Iain Duncan Smith referring to something as "A tautology, a contradiction in terms" (C4 News).

Which roughly means 'I must be right; I am using words you don't understand.'

Unfortunately, too many in authority underestimate the intelligence of the masses, thinking the majority have the mental capacity of the Slobs. After all, Johnson has made a career of using obscure words, he probably doesn't use them correctly either. Either that or Duncan Smith has a bet on that he can slip the word 'tautology' into the interview.

Disclosure: A dictionary of synonyms has been used in the construction of this response (to avoid using 'intelligence' twice in the same sentence)!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Which roughly means 'I must be right; I am using words you don't understand.'

Unfortunately, too many in authority underestimate the intelligence of the masses, thinking the majority have the mental capacity of the Slobs. After all, Johnson has made a career of using obscure words, he probably doesn't use them correctly either. Either that or Duncan Smith has a bet on that he can slip the word 'tautology' into the interview.

Disclosure: A dictionary of synonyms has been used in the construction of this response (to avoid using 'intelligence' twice in the same sentence)!

Nobody listens to him he's just one of a long line of useless ex Tory leaders who should just hide away in their country pads and keep their mouths shut.

 

[jfollows]

Another useless has-been, Jacob Rees-Mogg, is blathering on about how wonderful the "mini-budget" was and that Liz Truss shouldn't have made her U-turn. And that her undoing was the confidence/no confidence vote on fracking instead. My reading is that Liz Truss was already done for by that point, it just helped hasten her departure, and as for the "mini-budget", nobody in their right mind could make a case that this was a good idea. Mind you, I have my doubts about Jacob Rees-Mogg.

 

[DC1989]

There will certainly be a large number of tories who begin some major revisionism to say 'Truss was right'

 

[Bletchleyite]

There will certainly be a large number of tories who begin some major revisionism to say 'Truss was right'

My view probably tends (as ever) to the idea that somewhere between the two was right.

 

[Typhoon]

Nobody listens to him he's just one of a long line of useless ex Tory leaders who should just hide away in their country pads and keep their mouths shut.

Sorry, I can't agree with that. Only by them opening their mouths can they (and certain other politicians) demonstrate exactly how clueless they really are!

We need something to cheer us up in these desperate times; it is not much, but something!

Another useless has-been, Jacob Rees-Mogg, is blathering on about how wonderful the "mini-budget" was and that Liz Truss shouldn't have made her U-turn. And that her undoing was the confidence/no confidence vote on fracking instead. My reading is that Liz Truss was already done for by that point, it just helped hasten her departure, and as for the "mini-budget", nobody in their right mind could make a case that this was a good idea. Mind you, I have my doubts about Jacob Rees-Mogg.

From Rees-Mogg's point of view, it probably was. I have no idea how much he stood to gain from it, but it was a damn sight more than I did (even with his off-shore trusts). I am reminded of 'Common People', (the JRM version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3TT1VE8Jq0
"Wanna watch it all slide out of view,
and leave the whole economy screwed,
'Cos I got nothing else to do."
(Although I doubt whether he has ever used "Wanna" or "'Cos" in his life, Nanny would not approve.)

There will certainly be a large number of tories who begin some major revisionism to say 'Truss was right'

Of course, and they can never be proved wrong. Having seen market reaction, no-one is going to try that trick again for a long time.

It might also endear them to potential employers in the finance sphere should they, unfortunately, suffer a humiliating defeat in the General Election. On the other hand, financiers haven't got where they are today by being sentimental about losers!

 

[DustyBin]

My view probably tends (as ever) to the idea that somewhere between the two was right.

I'm going to stick my head above the parapet here and say I agree. Parts of the mini budget made sense given that the alternative was/is (as Kwarteng put it) managed decline (that's not to say it wasn't also risky). The fatal error was announcing it with no prior warning which understandably spooked the markets. After that it was trial by media, as per usual.

 

[DC1989]

I'm going to stick my head above the parapet here and say I agree. Parts of the mini budget made sense given that the alternative was/is (as Kwarteng put it) managed decline (that's not to say it wasn't also risky). The fatal error was announcing it with no prior warning which understandably spooked the markets. After that it was trial by media, as per usual.

I can't agree really - Truss acts like she's the first and only PM that wanted economic growth, when of course they all do. Their jobs pretty much depend on it.

Just wishing economic growth doesn't make it happen. Just look at what's happened now with her Australia trade deal and the collapse in trade with Japan since her deal (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/26/brexit-britain-japan-trade-deal-exports-slump)

And to be honest is, I find it very hard to believe anyone that claims to be pro business but anti single market.

Certainly she went too far too fast, and I guess we'll never know. I think she would have had a very difficult time getting her 'supply side reforms' through though, if you look at the huge Tory NIMBY hesitance to the current housing bill. The Anti Growth coalition is her own party unfortunately

Fix the housing crisis in this country and that will unlock plenty of economic growth

 

[edwin_m]

I'm going to stick my head above the parapet here and say I agree. Parts of the mini budget made sense given that the alternative was/is (as Kwarteng put it) managed decline (that's not to say it wasn't also risky). The fatal error was announcing it with no prior warning which understandably spooked the markets. After that it was trial by media, as per usual.

I can't agree either. The problems with the economy are down to energy prices and the aftermath of the pandemic (affecting all countries) and labour shortage and trade friction (consequences of Brexit affecting the UK only). Those last two make it difficult for industry to increase production to take advantage of increased domestic demand from tax cuts or increased competitiveness of exports due to a falling currency. So if tax cuts cause people to spend more as was intended, the extra money will mostly go overseas or stoke inflation rather than stimulating the domestic economy. And if the budget tanks the currency, we get the downsides of that without the competitiveness benefit that we enjoyed in 1992.