Accommodating HS2 trains on the northern WCML?

[AL1875]

err, what? Haven’t you seen the building works in the midlands?

I was more referring to the fact that HS2 will actually in all likelihood slow down travel between Glasgow/Carlisle and Lancashire because the new rolling stock will be slower than the Pendos on the 'classic' line.

 

[Bald Rick]

I was more referring to the fact that HS2 will actually in all likelihood slow down travel between Glasgow/Carlisle and Lancashire because the new rolling stock will be slower than the Pendos on the 'classic' line.

As references go, that was pretty oblique.

 

[AM9]

I was more referring to the fact that HS2 will actually in all likelihood slow down travel between Glasgow/Carlisle and Lancashire because the new rolling stock will be slower than the Pendos on the 'classic' line.

And how much of the route between "Lancashire" and Glasgow has a linespeed above 110mph?

 

[AL1875]

And how much of the route between "Lancashire" and Glasgow has a linespeed above 110mph?

I thought the HS2 stock would lose time wherever there are EPS differential speed limits along the whole route between Wigan and Glasgow, not just the bits that the Pendos can do 125mph on now?

 

[jfowkes]

I thought the HS2 stock would lose time wherever there are EPS differential speed limits along the whole route between Wigan and Glasgow, not just the bits that the Pendos can do 125mph on now?

Not necessarily. Pendos are heavy (because of the tilt system!) and have relatively old traction gear. HS2 stock may have to go slower round turns, but should be able to make up for it in accelerating out of them (I don't know about deceleration, that's ultimately limited by other factors, not raw power). Average speed (and therefore time) over the route may not be any slower.

 

[HSTEd]

I thought the HS2 stock would lose time wherever there are EPS differential speed limits along the whole route between Wigan and Glasgow, not just the bits that the Pendos can do 125mph on now?

Well a Class 390 is fast accelerating compared to what came before but it is positively pedestrian compared to modern high speed rolling stock.

A 9-car (~200m) Pendolino only has 12 driven axles (~33%), on a modern 9-car high speed train we might expect 18 (50%) or more. Japanese practice would be 75% and up.

By modern standards they are sluggish, so some time will be made up for that reason.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And how much of the route between "Lancashire" and Glasgow has a linespeed above 110mph?

Nearly all of it south of Carstairs, except through major stations, Warrington-Wigan and over the high fells.
The differential is PS-EPS, not necessarily 110-125mph.
Before Phase 2a opens, the 110mph* "drag" down the WCML will start at Lichfield.

* or whatever MU speed profile is implemented by then.

Once Google Maps updates its mapping for the HS2 trace, it will be obvious how much work is in progress over the Phase 1 route (130 miles, Euston-Lichfield/Birmingham).
The recent drone videos of the central section (Chalfont-Calvert) show some impressive groundworks.

 

[AM9]

Nearly all of it south of Carstairs, except through major stations, Warrington-Wigan and over the high fells.
The differential is PS-EPS, not necessarily 110-125mph.
Before Phase 2a opens, the 110mph* "drag" down the WCML will start at Lichfield.

* or whatever MU speed profile is implemented by then.

So what sort of differential is there between EPS and PS where EPS speeds are around 100 or less? I was just trying to understand the impact of using non-tilting trans in the future. In prectical terms it might be minimal, even before the gains of HS2 linespeeds are taken into consideration.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So what sort of differential is there between EPS and PS where EPS speeds are around 100 or less? I was just trying to understand the impact of using non-tilting trans in the future. In prectical terms it might be minimal, even before the gains of HS2 linespeeds are taken into consideration.

Typically a 10mph differential, eg 90/100 EPS on the Up at Shugborough, and 75/85EPS round Queensville curve at Stafford.
Some of the differentials in Cumbria are only 5mph, and there's no EPS over Shap and Beattock summits.
I think the biggest differential I've seen in the SA is 25mph around Macclesfield (95/EPS120).

 

[Bald Rick]

So what sort of differential is there between EPS and PS where EPS speeds are around 100 or less? I was just trying to understand the impact of using non-tilting trans in the future. In prectical terms it might be minimal, even before the gains of HS2 linespeeds are taken into consideration.

it varies, but typically around 10-15% (But in 5mph increments!)

However there’s examples of 95/EPS120, 70/85/EPS95, but also 100/EPS105

 

[AL1875]

Could faster acceleration counteract some of the loss of top linespeed? Ie the way HS2 is designed and built any time loss is probably dwarfed.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Could faster acceleration counteract some of the loss of top linespeed? Ie the way HS2 is designed and built any time loss is probably dwarfed.

It's easy to say that, but the 390s are no slouches.
There may also be power limits on the classic WCML, unlike on HS2 itself.
The northern section (north of Oxenholme) never got its intended autotransformer upgrade.

 

[AL1875]

It's easy to say that, but the 390s are no slouches.
There may also be power limits on the classic WCML, unlike on HS2 itself.
The northern section (north of Oxenholme) never got its intended autotransformer upgrade.

At worst case they would be the same speed as a 397, how much time do they lose in comparison to a 390?

In addition to that they have designed HS2 for the Glasgow service to only call at Preston and Carlisle which will save a lot of time too.

 

[edwin_m]

A couple of years ago people were looking at increasing the non-EPS speeds on the WCML - with no 125mph non-tilt stock in use there hasn't been any reason to until recently. Have any of these changes been implemented on the track yet?

 

[AL1875]

A couple of years ago people were looking at increasing the non-EPS speeds on the WCML - with no 125mph non-tilt stock in use there hasn't been any reason to until recently. Have any of these changes been implemented on the track yet?

Would that be the section between Wigan, Preston and Lancaster?

 

[edwin_m]

Would that be the section between Preston and Lancaster?

I don't have any details, but Preston to Lancaster is mostly pretty straight so the geometry shouldn't be a problem and the signal spacing and most other factors should be OK if Pendolinos can already run at that speed. Other sections that seem similar are Wigan to Preston and the section around Lockerbie where Virgin were talking about running Pendolinos at 135mph.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A couple of years ago people were looking at increasing the non-EPS speeds on the WCML - with no 125mph non-tilt stock in use there hasn't been any reason to until recently. Have any of these changes been implemented on the track yet?

There's a plan for higher MU speeds on the southern WCML (south of Weaver Jn) for Avanti's new 805/7.
No plan north of there, but the arrival of HS2 trains may provide the opportunity.

The HS2 plan to stop its 2x200m trains only at Preston and Carlisle (where the trains would split) has been compromised by the abandonment of the Golborne link.
If HS2 trains north of Crewe become 200m (to save major changes at Preston/Carlisle), they could also stop at other WCML stations.

 

[The Planner]

I suspect they are looking at the resignalling of Warrington, Preston and Carlisle to provide some capacity benefits rather than line speed at the moment. HS2 don't have to pay for those.

 

[Elecman]

There may also be power limits on the classic WCML, unlike on HS2 itself.
The northern section (north of Oxenholme) never got its intended autotransformer upgrade.

it has most of the required Infrastructure just never finished the actual ATF feeder cables being installed on the structures

 

[SynthD]

Is there any hope for non tilting trains that can go the faster speed in a decade or two?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is there any hope for non tilting trains that can go the faster speed in a decade or two?

Not without straightening the route, or building bypasses.
The Golborne link was a bypass, of Warrington/Winwick, but has been dumped out of the current HS2 Bill.
There has been talk of new sections of line north of there, but there seems no appetite to fund them.
There is also a long queue forming for new lines, starting with HS2 eastern leg and a bigger NPR.

 

[Tobbes]

Not without straightening the route, or building bypasses.
The Golborne link was a bypass, of Warrington/Winwick, but has been dumped out of the current HS2 Bill.
There has been talk of new sections of line north of there, but there seems no appetite to fund them.
There is also a long queue forming for new lines, starting with HS2 eastern leg and a bigger NPR.

Is there actually an outline plan for a proper HSR to the Central Belt? How much time would it save - based on a distance of c 400 miles, (well) under 3 hours should presumably be possible, presumably?

 

[edwin_m]

Is there actually an outline plan for a proper HSR to the Central Belt? How much time would it save - based on a distance of c 400 miles, (well) under 3 hours should presumably be possible, presumably?

There was a study about 10 years ago that I was involved in. 3hr is possible with bypassing of quite a lot of the existing route and HSR all the way would do considerably better.

 

[Tobbes]

There was a study about 10 years ago that I was involved in. 3hr is possible with bypassing of quite a lot of the existing route and HSR all the way would do considerably better.

Thanks @edwin_m - this would seem to be an easy win for a range of levelling up and Union policies. And scooting through the northern fells at 330 kph in winter would be remarkable.

 

[edwin_m]

Thanks @edwin_m - this would seem to be an easy win for a range of levelling up and Union policies. And scooting through the northern fells at 330 kph in winter would be remarkable.

It was however extremely expensive - roughly similar mileage to HS2 phase 1 and 2a, but a lot of it in hilly areas where it cost more.

 

[snowball]

It was however extremely expensive - roughly similar mileage to HS2 phase 1 and 2a, but a lot of it in hilly areas where it cost more.

And squeezed between two national parks, the Lake District and Yorkshire Dales, which in at least one place are only separated by the M6.

 

[Tobbes]

It was however extremely expensive - roughly similar mileage to HS2 phase 1 and 2a, but a lot of it in hilly areas where it cost more.

Fair enough, but without the tunnelling and costs of building in London. I must confess to be in the 'sod it, build the damn thing and over 100 years it'll be fine' especially as it would allow significant modal shift from the LON-GLA and LON-EDI corridors wich is good for the environment and for slot-constrained airports in the SE.

 

[snowball]

Fair enough, but without the tunnelling and costs of building in London.

I imagine surely have to be a good deal of tunnelling, see my post two up.

 

[Tobbes]

I imagine surely have to be a good deal of tunnelling, see my post two up.

No, that's fair enough - I was thinking that it would be materially cheaper to tunnel through a rural area rather than London. Moffat - Dolphinton base tunnel, anyone?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If you look at high speed lines in Italy and Spain, particularly, much new construction has been through hilly/mountainous territory.
However, long tunnels don't do much for the view from the train.
Bologna-Florence is 78.5 km, 94% of which is in tunnel (trains take 37 minutes).