GwR HSTs to be stood down

[REVUpminster]

New information.
https://twitter.com/stpeterslayout/status/1596125590733611009?s=61&t=nVvvEwaf6JQqGCa5_84SIA

Dear Colleague,

This Fastline is provided jointly with your Trade Unions to inform you of a material change to a fleet directly maintained and operated by Great Western Railway. Changes to GWR's future timetable plans lead to the complete withdrawal of the HST 2+4 fleet from passenger service. Because of this a Special Engineering Divisional Council (EDC) session was requested of the 21st November to inform colleagues representations, trade union full time officials and managers of the decision and provide a commitment for ongoing dialogue on the impact of the changes particularly at Laira Depot.

The decision means a reduction of 2+4 formation HSTs in traffic around the following timeline:

- 10 (2 in maintenance and 8 passenger services) in traffic from Dec 2022
- 7 in passenger service from May 2023
- 3 in passenger service from September 2023
- Complete withdrawal from normal traffic from Dec 2023

Whilst it was always unlikely the fleet would have stayed in traffic indefinitely, the plan detailed above is a more rapid withdrawal than had originally been anticipated. The Special EDC was requested to ensure that representatives of the affected colleagues was informed of this decision before other stakeholders and colleagues.

The decision to withdraw the fleet has been made both to reduce cost and to reduce carbon emissions across the routes the fleet had served. The fleet has been a favourite with colleagues and customers alike for many years. The diagrams that the fleet operate will be covered by redeploying our Intercity Express Trains (IET) and remaining diesel fleet.

 

[jackot]

New information.

https://twitter.com/stpeterslayout/status/1596125590733611009?s=61&t=nVvvEwaf6JQqGCa5_84SIA

https://twitter.com/stpeterslayout/status/1596125590733611009?s=61&t=nVvvEwaf6JQqGCa5_84SIA​

When they mention the 'Alstom Fleets' what is that referring to? Is it the 175s?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

New information.

https://twitter.com/stpeterslayout/status/1596125590733611009?s=61&t=nVvvEwaf6JQqGCa5_84SIA

This reads:

Dear Colleague,

This Fastline is provided jointly with your Trade Unions to inform you of a material change to a fleet directly maintained and operated by Great Western Railway. Changes to GWR's future timetable plans lead to the complete withdrawal of the HST 2+4 fleet from passenger service. Because of this a Special Engineering Divisional Council (EDC) session was requested of the 21st November to inform colleagues representations, trade union full time officials and managers of the decision and provide a commitment for ongoing dialogue on the impact of the changes particularly at Laira Depot.

The decision means a reduction of 2+4 formation HSTs in traffic around the following timeline:

- 10 (2 in maintenance and 8 passenger services) in traffic from Dec 2022
- 7 in passenger service from May 2023
- 3 in passenger service from September 2023
- Complete withdrawal from normal traffic from Dec 2023

Whilst it was always unlikely the fleet would have stayed in traffic indefinitely, the plan detailed above is a more rapid withdrawal than had originally been anticipated. The Special EDC was requested to ensure that representatives of the affected colleagues was informed of this decision before other stakeholders and colleagues.

The decision to withdraw the fleet has been made both to reduce cost and to reduce carbon emissions across the routes the fleet had served. The fleet has been a favourite with colleagues and customers alike for many years. The diagrams that the fleet operate will be covered by redeploying our Intercity Express Trains (IET) and remaining diesel fleet.

It then goes onto speak about internal arrangements in terms of future recruiting.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Nov 2022 ==

When they mention the 'Alstom Fleets' what is that referring to? Is it the 175s?

Class 220 and 221. I'm not sure what would make you think CrossCountry operate a fleet of HSTs and 175s.

 

[Energy]

When they mention the 'Alstom Fleets' what is that referring to? Is it the 175s?

The 175s don't go down there, perhaps they are referring to the XC voyagers?

 

[jackot]

Class 220 and 221. I'm not sure what would make you think CrossCountry operate a fleet of HSTs and 175s.

The 175s don't go down there, perhaps they are referring to the XC voyagers?

Sorry I read it completely wrong, I'm just not used to calling Bombardiers Alstoms yet! I though they might be hinting at 'arrangements' for the 175s to be coming to GWR.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Sorry I read it completely wrong, I'm just not used to calling Bombardiers Alstoms yet! I though they might be hinting at 'arrangements' for the 175s to be coming to GWR.

We should be so lucky It looks more like a stretch-the-fleet-to-the-MAX situation as per Southern.

 

[jackot]

We should be so lucky It looks more like a stretch-the-fleet-to-the-MAX situation as per Southern.

It was wishful thinking I suppose Not looking forward to seeing how GWR will manage come next year if their plan is to get rid of the HSTs with no extra units!

 

[yorksrob]

If this isn't evidence that the DfT are puppets of the treasury, with no interest in the interest of passengers, I don't know what is.

 

[Choo choo 66]

Sounding promising with regards to using iet to run in their place rather than cutting services

 

[XCTurbostar]

Indeed, I know the very fleet you are thinking of. We shall see, but I cant see any easy or readily lined up future for them!

An interesting thought and as it has been said, there are a lot of pocket fleets which could be trimmed back.. we'll have to see.

If this isn't evidence that the DfT are puppets of the treasury, with no interest in the interest of passengers, I don't know what is.

Agree entirely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If this isn't evidence that the DfT are puppets of the treasury, with no interest in the interest of passengers, I don't know what is.

Why would he who pays the piper NOT call the tune?

 

[yorksrob]

Why would he who pays the piper NOT call the tune?

Why should he who pays the piper call a lousy tune, such as "no limits" by two unlimited, rather than a beautiful tune, like "Scarborough Fair" ?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If this isn't evidence that the DfT are puppets of the treasury, with no interest in the interest of passengers, I don't know what is.

Is this a genuine concern for the capacity levels of the Cornish Main Line, or irritation based on being a HST enthusiast, only because I know you had similar fondness for the EMT HSTs (which I was very happy to see the back of)

 

[yorksrob]

Is this a genuine concern for the capacity levels of the Cornish Main Line, or irritation based on being a HST enthusiast, only because I know you had similar fondness for the EMT HSTs (which I was very happy to see the back of)

It is a genuine concern for capacity. One borne of experience as the EMR service became a lot more crowded and uncomfortable once the HST's had been withdrawn.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It is a genuine concern for capacity. One borne of experience as the EMR service became a lot more crowded and uncomfortable once the HST's had been withdrawn.

A major difference is that 4 and 5 carriage Meridians and Adelantes are considerably shorter than 8 carriage HSTs, especially with 22x poor capacity meaning half of the carriage is vestibule.

IETs have 3.5 26m carriages of standard class compared to 4 23m Mk3 carriages, so it’s pretty much a like for like replacement on Cardiff PNZ. The planned increase in 9 carriage London Penzance services vice 5 past Plymouth (am northbound pm southbound) will also help a bit.

 

[swt_passenger]

A major difference is that 4 and 5 carriage Meridians and Adelantes are considerably shorter than 8 carriage HSTs, especially with 22x poor capacity meaning half of the carriage is vestibule.

IETs have 3.5 26m carriages of standard class compared to 4 23m Mk3 carriages, so it’s pretty much a like for like replacement on Cardiff Portsmouth. The planned increase in 9 carriage London Penzance services vice 5 past Plymouth (am northbound pm southbound) will also help a bit.

Cardiff - Portsmouth? Or Penzance?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Cardiff - Portsmouth? Or Penzance?

Penzance it should say

 

[yorksrob]

A major difference is that 4 and 5 carriage Meridians and Adelantes are considerably shorter than 8 carriage HSTs, especially with 22x poor capacity meaning half of the carriage is vestibule.

IETs have 3.5 26m carriages of standard class compared to 4 23m Mk3 carriages, so it’s pretty much a like for like replacement on Cardiff PNZ. The planned increase in 9 carriage London Penzance services vice 5 past Plymouth (am northbound pm southbound) will also help a bit.

Quite correct, the decline in quality from the EMR HST's isn't quite the same, but it's primarily about capacity to run the service.

Like Southern withdrawing its 455's and there being nothing to replace them - just very stretched diagrams.

 

[Starmill]

Given the Department can't withdraw service completely from any route, they will just keep spreading the resources so thinly as to hold back growth everywhere. There are lots of people who have been saying this since the pandemic began.

 

[Bluejays]

Will be sad to see them go, good comfortable trains that provide a lot of capacity on that route.

 

[Master29]

Someone is going to have to bombard the GWR suggestion box with that idea. I suspect there is no chance of it happening.

This is First Group after all.

Circumstances change though, and unfortunate as it is, it is just how it goes. I'm sure no one was happy about the wasted refurbishment on the 442s either, but no one saw COVID (or the other factors) coming.

Don't you think the covid chestnut has been doing the rounds a bit too long now. They would find a way if they wanted to.

The point made elsewhere is that there simply isn't the money to pay for overhaul of the engines as they reach the point this becomes required, hence no way to keep them in service, regardless of the ongoing lease.

This was always going to be the case though. I think they were only a temporary but nonetheless successful stopgap which Ironically the HST was originally intended to be.

Most trains are already 9 or 10 car on this route. Presently only a couple of trains a day split at Plymouth after common sense won the day there.

Which is what you, I and many others were trying to point out was a daft idea of using only 5 car splits beyond Plymouth with virtually no 9 or 10 car trains beyond the Tamar. It beggars' belief why this was considered in the first place. A few splits as now OK but not all.

 

[AL1875]

Which is what you, I and many others were trying to point out was a daft idea of using only 5 car splits beyond Plymouth with virtually no 9 or 10 car trains beyond the Tamar. It beggars' belief why this was considered in the first place. A few splits as now OK but not all.

Never ever let a politician order trains that can be split in half, it never ends well.

 

[irish_rail]

This is First Group after all.

Don't you think the covid chestnut has been doing the rounds a bit too long now. They would find a way if they wanted to.

This was always going to be the case though. I think they were only a temporary but nonetheless successful stopgap which Ironically the HST was originally intended to be.

Which is what you, I and many others were trying to point out was a daft idea of using only 5 car splits beyond Plymouth with virtually no 9 or 10 car trains beyond the Tamar. It beggars' belief why this was considered in the first place. A few splits as now OK but not all.

Makes me laugh when I think of the "abuse" I used to get on here for daring to suggest the whole splitting and joining at Plymouth was never a good idea. Funny how those same posters went silent on the matter as our predictions proved correct.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Nov 2022 ==

Never ever let a politician order trains that can be split in half, it never ends wewell.

Indeed. Sadly we are now stuck with a ridiculous number of 5 car sets on the Western , and now just have to make the best of them unless common sense prevails and they get palmed off to XC or swap for some of LNERs 9 cars. In the interim I suppose using some 5 cars to replace HSTs at least keeps them off the long distance trains where they are most certainly not welcome.

 

[yorkie]

If anyone would like to post anything of a speculative nature, please either create a new thread or use the following thread (as appropriate):

Changes which may occur when GWR 'Castle' HSTs are withdrawn

Reducing from half-hourly to hourly would be a terrible downgrade for Cornwall - even with the remaining trains being longer. It's been proven time and again that the best way to grow passenger numbers is to improve frequency. There are particular stations (St Germans springs to mind) that have...

www.railforums.co.uk

Many thanks

 

[Snow1964]

I am trying to get my head around why there is a phase out at May, September and December 2023.

Presumably May because timetables change and spare IETs can switch in on some workings (but if spare why can’t it be earlier than May). September makes no sense unless the thinking is trains are less busy after high summer season (tourist season continues into October in South West), then why do remainder magically get replacements in December that won’t lead to overcrowding in summer 2024

Am I just being really thick, or does this phase out not make any sense, unless there are plans for alternative trains during the extended summer season into October and for summer 2024.

 

[JonathanH]

I am trying to get my head around why there is a phase out at May, September and December 2023.

I hope it isn't reliant on getting 769s into service.

The end of the Turbo refresh will free up a unit, as will the Greenford 230.

A phased withdrawal provides the resource planners time to work on tightening up the diagrams to free up stock.

 

[fgwrich]

I hope it isn't reliant on getting 769s into service.

The end of the Turbo refresh will free up a unit, as will the Greenford 230.

A phased withdrawal provides the resource planners time to work on tightening up the diagrams to free up stock.

I’m told that it is. However, I’ve also seen a drone video over Long Marston this week (where a number of the GWR 769s are stored) and somewhat intriguingly, a number already have their cabs sheeted over. I’ve not seen that happened on a stored EMU before.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I am trying to get my head around why there is a phase out at May, September and December 2023.

Because traincrew have to be trained on the IETs which are replacing HSTs and you can’t train everyone at once.

 

[JonathanH]

Because traincrew have to be trained on the IETs which are replacing HSTs and you can’t train everyone at once.

Are more west traincrew going to get trained on 158s as well for a bit more flexibility?

 

[irish_rail]

Are more west traincrew going to get trained on 158s as well for a bit more flexibility?

That would make sense . Exeter high speed recently learned them and in a sensible world Plymouth and Penzance HSS would follow suit. Its a 2 day course i believe provided you already have 150s (which all drivers in the West do)