Expanding Europe’s high speed rail network

[PTR 444]

Europe as a continent already has a pretty extensive high speed rail network by international standards, although it is still rather patchy in places. Compare that with China which is five times as big, yet has a fully joined-up high speed rail network allowing fast travel between most of the largest cities.

If there were more high speed lines in Europe, rail journey times would become more competitive with air, opening up new direct rail journey opportunities such as London to Berlin, Paris to Madrid and Amsterdam to Milan. My suggestions for new lines to close gaps in the European high speed network would be:

• Brussels to Antwerp
• Bordeaux to Burgos
• Montpellier to Perpignan
• Lyon to Turin
• Cologne to Hannover
• Frankfurt to Mannheim
• Stuttgart to Augsburg
• Berlin to Vienna via Prague & Brno
• Munich to Bologna via Innsbruck & Verona
• Munich to Budapest via Vienna & Bratislava

How practical and economical would it be to build each of these to a minimum design speed of 200mph?

 

[30907]

Europe as a continent already has a pretty extensive high speed rail network by international standards, although it is still rather patchy in places. Compare that with China which is five times as big, yet has a fully joined-up high speed rail network allowing fast travel between most of the largest cities.

If there were more high speed lines in Europe, rail journey times would become more competitive with air, opening up new direct rail journey opportunities such as London to Berlin, Paris to Madrid and Amsterdam to Milan. My suggestions for new lines to close gaps in the European high speed network would be:

• Brussels to Antwerp
• Bordeaux to Burgos
• Montpellier to Perpignan
• Lyon to Turin
• Cologne to Hannover
• Frankfurt to Mannheim
• Stuttgart to Augsburg
• Berlin to Vienna via Prague & Brno
• Munich to Bologna via Innsbruck & Verona
• Munich to Budapest via Vienna & Bratislava

How practical and economical would it be to build each of these to a minimum design speed of 200mph?

Most of those are actually in the planning stage, at least in part, and not necessarily for 200mph, and you could add the Vienna-Italy route.
The exceptions:
Brussels-Antwerp, where the recent newbuild/upgrade at 100mph was for capacity as well as speed, and I'm not convinced the time saved would be worth a new line.
Munich-Budapest, where the problem I suspect is national boundaries (Bratislava adds another) as OeBB has spent a huge amount on upgrading the Westbahn (max 250km/h).

My other comment is that for many countries creating capacity for freight is as important (think Rhine Valley, Gotthard, Loetschberg, Brenner, Semmering....).

 

[PTR 444]

Most of those are actually in the planning stage, at least in part, and not necessarily for 200mph, and you could add the Vienna-Italy route.
The exceptions:
Brussels-Antwerp, where the recent newbuild/upgrade at 100mph was for capacity as well as speed, and I'm not convinced the time saved would be worth a new line.
Munich-Budapest, where the problem I suspect is national boundaries (Bratislava adds another) as OeBB has spent a huge amount on upgrading the Westbahn (max 250km/h).

My other comment is that for many countries creating capacity for freight is as important (think Rhine Valley, Gotthard, Loetschberg, Brenner, Semmering....).

Stuttgart - Ulm is currently under construction along with the Stuttgart 21 project to reorient the city's main station. Unfortunately this will only have a maximum speed of 155mph, compared with the much older Mannheim - Stuttgart HSR which is 170mph.

Another one to add is Fulda to Hanau. If this were built, it would shave a significant amount off the journey time from Berlin and Hannover to Frankfurt and south west Germany. It might even make a direct TGV service from Paris to Berlin feasible.

 

[stuu]

Europe as a continent already has a pretty extensive high speed rail network by international standards, although it is still rather patchy in places. Compare that with China which is five times as big, yet has a fully joined-up high speed rail network allowing fast travel between most of the largest cities.

If there were more high speed lines in Europe, rail journey times would become more competitive with air, opening up new direct rail journey opportunities such as London to Berlin, Paris to Madrid and Amsterdam to Milan. My suggestions for new lines to close gaps in the European high speed network would be:

• Brussels to Antwerp
• Bordeaux to Burgos
• Montpellier to Perpignan
• Lyon to Turin
• Cologne to Hannover
• Frankfurt to Mannheim
• Stuttgart to Augsburg
• Berlin to Vienna via Prague & Brno
• Munich to Bologna via Innsbruck & Verona
• Munich to Budapest via Vienna & Bratislava

How practical and economical would it be to build each of these to a minimum design speed of 200mph?

Germany has real issues getting things built, the planning regime is utterly byzantine with many different levels of processes and appeals. Even once they start construction there can be much longer timescales to get things done because money needs to be approved and released every year - there's minor road bypasses that take 10 years+ to get built. They also split contracts out into tiny sections so smaller contractors can bid, taking more time and money.

The Munich-Bologna route will be mostly upgraded to 200 km/h and above more once the Brenner tunnel is finished, but it all comes to a crashing halt at the German border

The San Sebastian-Vitoria segment of Bordeaux-Burgos is under construction, that's the most difficult segment through the mountains

 

[PTR 444]

The San Sebastian-Vitoria segment of Bordeaux-Burgos is under construction, that's the most difficult segment through the mountains

I wonder which French - Spanish gap will close first - Bordeaux to San Sebastian or Montpellier to Perpignan?

 

[stuu]

Montpellier to Perpignan is in planning and the first section extending the high speed line past Beziers will start fairly soon.

Bordeaux-Spain is a vague aspiration

 

[D6130]

Lyon to Turin

Already under construction....or at least the new Mont Cenis base tunnel is - between St Jean de Maurienne in France and Susa in Italy. Planned to open sometime in 2030.

 

[popeter45]

i suggest Amsterdam-Osnabruck so the currect IC to Berlin can terminate at Osnabruck as a new ICE service can replace it with better timings and enable stuff like Amsterdam to Hamburg services

 

[PTR 444]

i suggest Amsterdam-Osnabruck so the currect IC to Berlin can terminate at Osnabruck as a new ICE service can replace it with better timings and enable stuff like Amsterdam to Hamburg services

If Hannover to Duisburg is upgraded, it would probably make more economic sense to build HSL Oost from Amsterdam to Cologne via Arnhem. Berlin might be more competitive that way, but would also have the added benefit of connecting the Netherlands with southern and western parts of Germany.

 

[popeter45]

If Hannover to Duisburg is upgraded, it would probably make more economic sense to build HSL Oost from Amsterdam to Cologne via Arnhem. Berlin might be more competitive that way, but would also have the added benefit of connecting the Netherlands with southern and western parts of Germany.

HSL Oost could actually serve both if built as a Y splitting at Arnhem

 

[PTR 444]

HSL Oost could actually serve both if built as a Y splitting at Arnhem

That could work. I believe the Amsterdam - Berlin ICE currently runs via Amersfoort and Deventer, but that could divert via Zutphen if HSL Oost gets as far as Arnhem.

 

[stuu]

That could work. I believe the Amsterdam - Berlin ICE currently runs via Amersfoort and Deventer, but that could divert via Zutphen if HSL Oost gets as far as Arnhem.

Amsterdam-Berlin is not an ICE, it's an actual train with a locomotive, which gets changed at the border. For now

Amsterdam to Frankfurt is an ICE

 

[popeter45]

Amsterdam-Berlin is not an ICE, it's an actual train with a locomotive, which gets changed at the border. For now

Amsterdam to Frankfurt is an ICE

the issue with the Berlin IC is it has to serve 2 roles, Amsterdam to Germany (Hanover and Berlin as well as Hamburg via a change at osnabruck) but also as the local cross boarder service for stuff like Apledorm to Bad bentheim, a new HSL would let you split these into 2, local IC only as far as Osnabruck then a new ICE high speed service to Berlin that skips the smaller stops

 

[PTR 444]

One country to keep an eye on is Spain. It already possesses the most expansive high speed rail network in Europe and there are plans to build new lines along the northern and eastern coasts, as well as into Portugal. Before long, there will be more miles of AVE track than conventional Iberian Gauge.

Spain is pretty fortunate in that its capital and economic hub, Madrid, is slap bang in the middle of the country, hence it is relatively straightforward to build radial lines out to the provincial cities on the coast. As more of these lines are built, it makes sense to join up AVE services at Madrid, boosting direct connectivity between far flung destinations at opposite ends of the country.

Whether there is demand for these connections or not is another matter, but unlike Britain, the vast amount of spare capacity makes it much easier to start up an open-access operation. See the Triple Competition in Spain thread.

 

[popeter45]

Whether there is demand for these connections or not is another matter, but unlike Britain

thats the issue with the AVE network, lines are built for political not economic reasons then sit unused once built, e.g. look at the france to barcelona link, their is the real possibility with them that once profitability of the lines becomes more important that the network shrinks massively akin to beaching

 

[PTR 444]

thats the issue with the AVE network, lines are built for political not economic reasons then sit unused once built, e.g. look at the france to barcelona link, their is the real possibility with them that once profitability of the lines becomes more important that the network shrinks massively akin to beaching

Much of Spain’s existing high speed network parallels classic lines. It’s far more likely that the classic lines will close or be converted to standard gauge so that AVE trains can run on them.

 

[stuu]

thats the issue with the AVE network, lines are built for political not economic reasons then sit unused once built, e.g. look at the france to barcelona link, their is the real possibility with them that once profitability of the lines becomes more important that the network shrinks massively akin to beaching

The political reasons for the existence of them is unlikely to change though - they were built for national cohesion in a country that has two very serious separatist areas, and several others which are less than 100% committed to Spain as an entity

 

[PacerFacer]

When Gareth Dennis covered this subject, he and the Independent's Jon Stone came up with the following:

Amsterdam - Hamburg
Montpellier - Perpignan
Koln - Berlin
Turin - Lyon
Brussels - Antwerp
Paris - Calais (via Amiens)
UK HS1 - UK HS2

From my extreme novice perspective, I'm quite surprised there's ostensibly no discussion of Bordeaux - Lyon, linking the third and ninth largest city, probably via Clermont Ferrand (22nd), and providing an east-west link across the middle of the country. My rough understanding of French geography suggests it would be quite challenging terrain though. There are existing plans for a second Paris - Lyon that runs via Clermont Ferrand, so the line from that could potentially be used for the final section?

I also wonder if they've ever considered a west coast line going from Rennes (11th) - Nantes (6th) - Bordeaux. Again, I think you could possibly join the existing Paris - Bordeaux line, so wouldn't have to build the whole thing. Theoretically you could take it further north to somewhere like Caen, but that's a smaller city so a harder sell.

 

[PTR 444]

When Gareth Dennis covered this subject, he and the Independent's Jon Stone came up with the following:

Amsterdam - Hamburg
Montpellier - Perpignan
Koln - Berlin
Turin - Lyon
Brussels - Antwerp
Paris - Calais (via Amiens)
UK HS1 - UK HS2

From my extreme novice perspective, I'm quite surprised there's ostensibly no discussion of Bordeaux - Lyon, linking the third and ninth largest city, probably via Clermont Ferrand (22nd), and providing an east-west link across the middle of the country. My rough understanding of French geography suggests it would be quite challenging terrain though. There are existing plans for a second Paris - Lyon that runs via Clermont Ferrand, so the line from that could potentially be used for the final section?

I also wonder if they've ever considered a west coast line going from Rennes (11th) - Nantes (6th) - Bordeaux. Again, I think you could possibly join the existing Paris - Bordeaux line, so wouldn't have to build the whole thing. Theoretically you could take it further north to somewhere like Caen, but that's a smaller city so a harder sell.

What about an LGV Normandie line from Paris to Le Havre and Caen via Rouen?

 

[30907]

From my extreme novice perspective, I'm quite surprised there's ostensibly no discussion of Bordeaux - Lyon, linking the third and ninth largest city, probably via Clermont Ferrand (22nd), and providing an east-west link across the middle of the country. My rough understanding of French geography suggests it would be quite challenging terrain though. There are existing plans for a second Paris - Lyon that runs via Clermont Ferrand, so the line from that could potentially be used for the final section?

I suspect the route would actually be Bordeaux-Toulouse - Narbonne - Montpellier -Lyon, all of which bar Toulouse-Narbonne is planned, and the missing bit is through easy terrain.
8t is noticeable that the A89 autoroute via Clermont piggybacks on 3 sections of Paris-oriented motorway.

I also wonder if they've ever considered a west coast line going from Rennes (11th) - Nantes (6th) - Bordeaux. Again, I think you could possibly join the existing Paris - Bordeaux line, so wouldn't have to build the whole thing.

...much like the A83 motorway which only gets to Niort before joining the A10, thus avoiding the Marais Poitevin which would be technically as well as environmentally challenging. Nantes-Bordeaux has just been upgraded by SNCF but is still very slow.

What about an LGV Normandie line from Paris to Le Havre and Caen via Rouen?

Fair point, and as with Amiens there will be a fair bit of lobbying for it. Not sure it is of great significance outside Normandy though.

 

[PacerFacer]

I suspect the route would actually be Bordeaux-Toulouse - Narbonne - Montpellier -Lyon, all of which bar Toulouse-Narbonne is planned, and the missing bit is through easy terrain.
8t is noticeable that the A89 autoroute via Clermont piggybacks on 3 sections of Paris-oriented motorway.

Yes, I suspect that's what they'll build first, and it may well be that they will never get to Bordeaux - Lyon through the middle. The route would make sense in its own right as a route along the southern border.

I did the rough measuring on Google Maps and the argument for Bordeaux - Lyon would be it's about 200km shorter, terminus to terminus. The route above comes out at 675km. As the crow flies between Bordeaux and Lyon is about 430, while a more realistic route up the existing HS line to Angouleme then to Limoges and Clermont Ferrand then Lyon is 470.

 

[CdBrux]

Stuttgart - Ulm is currently under construction along with the Stuttgart 21 project to reorient the city's main station. Unfortunately this will only have a maximum speed of 155mph, compared with the much older Mannheim - Stuttgart HSR which is 170mph.

As someone who may well use that new line I am surprised it's max speed is so low, do you know why?

 

[mike57]

I am going to suggest a fairly short line, linking Massy to the LGV Interconnexion Est, to the south of Paris. The missing bit of high speed line is less than 20km as the crow flies but for example on a journey from Marne-le-Vallee to Rennes (which we did pre covid) you leave the main Paris Lyon line having taken the north chord of the junction between Paris Lyon and LGV Interconnexion Est and are treated to a 25 min tour of the suburbs of Paris before joining the LGV Atlantique at Massy. Given the short length and the slow speed on the current route 200kph would probably suffice.

 

[PTR 444]

This is quite an ambitious one but how about a Central France LGV linking Paris with Clermont Ferrand? I believe this line was once proposed under the acronym POCL (Paris, Orleans, Clermont, Lyon) as a means of relieving the LGV Sud-Est, however it would need to be a much higher top speed for Paris - Lyon trains to be competitive that way since the proposed route via Orleans is less direct.

Saying that I think this could be a good contender for France’s first 400kph railway. Maybe in the distant future there could be an extension from Clermont Ferrand to Toulouse and then onwards to Zaragoza via a base tunnel beneath the Pyrenees. This would significantly slash rail journey times between the French and Spanish capitals.

 

[fandroid]

As someone who may well use that new line I am surprised it's max speed is so low, do you know why?

Possibly because it involves a lot of tunnel?

 

[cle]

This is quite an ambitious one but how about a Central France LGV linking Paris with Clermont Ferrand? I believe this line was once proposed under the acronym POCL (Paris, Orleans, Clermont, Lyon) as a means of relieving the LGV Sud-Est, however it would need to be a much higher top speed for Paris - Lyon trains to be competitive that way since the proposed route via Orleans is less direct.

Saying that I think this could be a good contender for France’s first 400kph railway. Maybe in the distant future there could be an extension from Clermont Ferrand to Toulouse and then onwards to Zaragoza via a base tunnel beneath the Pyrenees. This would significantly slash rail journey times between the French and Spanish capitals.

I just don't see the scale for something dedicated to that.. Paris-Madrid flights/demand probably would fill 3-4 trains a day. And Paris-Nice flights/demand would fill 10-15 if the journey was 3 hours. The domestic demand is always going to be far higher - and so international links will only ever be added bonuses off the back of domestically viable ones (Eurostar exists because of Paris-Lille and Paris-Brussels demand, *yes not domestic but closer ties than most). Or freight links, per the Alpine tunnels.

The fantastic new line down to Bordeaux does a good bit of this. When Toulouse is added, there will be another route to Perpignan - which might be about the same speed as via Montpellier, thinking Barcelona. As for Madrid, the gaps are even more and while the Spanish are working on it, they're thinking domestic travel first too, so it's not being geared up for a super direct Madrid-Bordeaux connection, unfortunately.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The 'relief' line for the LGV Sud-Est would have gone via Nevers and then directly to Lyon, so would have been very competitive in distance and time. LGV lines are no longer built with the extreme saw-tooth profile that the LGV Sud_Est has over the Burgundy countryside either. Clermont Ferrand would have been served by a connection to the classic line at Nevers. Limoges was to be served by a branch off the LGV Sud-Europe Atlantique at Poitiers. All these projects have been dropped unfortunately, although the capacity of the LGV Sud-Est has been recently upgraded instead.

 

[class ep-09]

Europe as a continent already has a pretty extensive high speed rail network by international standards, although it is still rather patchy in places. Compare that with China which is five times as big, yet has a fully joined-up high speed rail network allowing fast travel between most of the largest cities.

If there were more high speed lines in Europe, rail journey times would become more competitive with air, opening up new direct rail journey opportunities such as London to Berlin, Paris to Madrid and Amsterdam to Milan. My suggestions for new lines to close gaps in the European high speed network would be:

• Brussels to Antwerp
• Bordeaux to Burgos
• Montpellier to Perpignan
• Lyon to Turin
• Cologne to Hannover
• Frankfurt to Mannheim
• Stuttgart to Augsburg
• Berlin to Vienna via Prague & Brno
• Munich to Bologna via Innsbruck & Verona
• Munich to Budapest via Vienna & Bratislava

How practical and economical would it be to build each of these to a minimum design speed of 200mph?

Would adding high speed lines to the east of Berlin be good idea ?
Such as Berlin - Warsaw ( via Poznan )

 

[PTR 444]

Would adding high speed lines to the east of Berlin be good idea ?
Such as Berlin - Warsaw ( via Poznan )

Sounds good to me, as long as we don’t go as far as Belarus or Russia in this current climate

For Poland, I would suggest a hub and spoke system from Warsaw, with a line to Lodz branching into two separate routes to Berlin via Poznan and Prague via Wrocław. There could also be a line to Krakow/Katowice continuing towards Bratislava and Vienna, and another line heading north linking with the Baltic states and Finland via a Tallinn - Helsinki tunnel.