Changes which may occur when GWR 'Castle' HSTs are withdrawn

[northernbelle]

Reducing from half-hourly to hourly would be a terrible downgrade for Cornwall - even with the remaining trains being longer. It's been proven time and again that the best way to grow passenger numbers is to improve frequency. There are particular stations (St Germans springs to mind) that have lost its bus service as a direct result of the enhanced train service - if true, these plans risk places like that stepping back 20 years in their connectivity.

Devon & Cornwall's passenger numbers are actually exceeding pre-Covid levels, thanks to the upgraded services on many of the routes. The exceptions to this trend appear to be the Newquay and Gunnislake branches.

Unfortunately the spending cuts being demanded by the Treasury are massive. I believe if the industry is made to go through with them we're going to see the biggest cuts to the railway since Beeching, risking the downward spiral of cut > demand reduces >cut > demand reduces. I believe the withdrawal of HSTs might be the tip of the iceberg.

I'd put money on the balance of the GWR diesel fleet being strengthened by Welsh 158s - they're relatively cheap to run and have a lot of advantages in fleet compatibility and therefore availability.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Reducing from half-hourly to hourly would be a terrible downgrade for Cornwall - even with the remaining trains being longer. It's been proven time and again that the best way to grow passenger numbers is to improve frequency. There are particular stations (St Germans springs to mind) that have lost its bus service as a direct result of the enhanced train service - if true, these plans risk places like that stepping back 20 years in their connectivity.

Where has anyone said Cornwall would reduce to hourly. The briefing says existing rolling stock will be used to cover the diagrams.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Nov 2022 ==

I'd put money on the balance of the GWR diesel fleet being strengthened by Welsh 158s - they're relatively cheap to run and have a lot of advantages in fleet compatibility and therefore availability.

A minimum of a 2 year lease extension has just been signed for the TfW for the 158s so that’s a long way in the future before they come a potential option.

 

[northernbelle]

Where has anyone said Cornwall would reduce to hourly. The briefing says existing rolling stock will be used to cover the diagrams.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Nov 2022 ==



A minimum of a 2 year lease extension has just been signed for the TfW for the 158s so that’s a long way in the future before they come a potential option.

It was being discussed upthread. I realise it hasn't been confirmed - hence my wording reducing from half-hourly to hourly would be a terrible downgrade...

It's far from unheard of for a fleet, or part of a fleet, to be sub-leased if so required.

 

[northernbelle]

Thinking about it, and given the drastic loss of long-distance commuting, it could be that cut to the Intercity timetable (e.g. Bristol-Paddington) would release IETs to cover the current Castle Diagrams. Bristol Temple Meads - Paddington being reduced to hourly from half-hourly would free up a fair number of 5-car IETs if required.

 

[JonathanH]

Bristol Temple Meads - Paddington being reduced to hourly from half-hourly would free up a fair number of 5-car IETs if required.

I suspect half hourly Bristol to London trains bring in more revenue than half hourly Penzance to Plymouth ones (or more to the point the third trains between Plymouth and Taunton each hour)

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Thinking about it, and given the drastic loss of long-distance commuting, it could be that cut to the Intercity timetable (e.g. Bristol-Paddington) would release IETs to cover the current Castle Diagrams. Bristol Temple Meads - Paddington being reduced to hourly from half-hourly would free up a fair number of 5-car IETs if required.

Bristol has gone from 4tph to 2tph that has already freed up the IETs. These sets are not currently diagrammed.

 

[Benjwri]

it could be that cut to the Intercity timetable (e.g. Bristol-Paddington) would release IETs to cover the current Castle Diagrams. Bristol Temple Meads - Paddington being reduced to hourly from half-hourly would free up a fair number of 5-car IETs if required.

Most Bristol (BRI) to Paddington services are run with 9 cars anyway, but this is a terrible idea. I’ve travelled between Bath and Didcot at least 20 times on these services in the last year, at varying times of day, especially in the Up direction, and have only ever found a seat once. A couple of the services have even been full and standing.
When GWR throws in a 5 car, even at quiet times of day, it causes chaos, I cannot imagine what would happen if it was cut back to hourly.

 

[AL1875]

Why on earth would Bristol to Paddington be reduced to 1tph? That would be crazy.

As for crazy that gets me onto the cornish services. I have never understood why it is that an already very slow intercity train from London all the way down to Penzance that crawls through Cornwall at a snails pace also has to stop in Saltash, St Germans, Lostwithiel, Menheniot and even some in Ivybridge and St Budeaux.

Meanwhile several towns across the UK with populations exceeding 100k are lucky if they have an hourly Sprinter to the nearest big city, nevermind London.

 

[GoneSouth]

If the service is reduced to hourly down to Penzance as some suggest, as a regular visitor, I shall look forward to many more delay repay claims after just missing connections. What a way to run a railway!

I always feel like I shouldn’t claim as it’s depriving the railway of revenue, but I can’t help it, it’s just so expensive!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I always feel like I shouldn’t claim as it’s depriving the railway of revenue, but I can’t help it, it’s just so expensive!

Nonsense. Why pay for a naff service?
-
I can't believe some on here think Plymouth to Penzance justifies 2tph more than Bristol Paddington does!

 

[AL1875]

I can't believe some on here think Plymouth to Penzance justifies 2tph more than Bristol Paddington does!

Oh I agree with you on that. Why don't they just run the odd crowd busting Paddington/Bristol Parkway/BTM service that runs non stop through Reading and Swindon?

 

[Master29]

Nonsense. Why pay for a naff service?
-
I can't believe some on here think Plymouth to Penzance justifies 2tph more than Bristol Paddington does!

We are talking of different capacities though.

 

[DanNCL]

Indeed. Sadly we are now stuck with a ridiculous number of 5 car sets on the Western , and now just have to make the best of them unless common sense prevails and they get palmed off to XC or swap for some of LNERs 9 cars. In the interim I suppose using some 5 cars to replace HSTs at least keeps them off the long distance trains where they are most certainly not welcome.

LNER have too many 5 cars and not enough 9s as it is, they don’t need more forced on them!

Extra centre cars need to be ordered to lengthen some of the 5 car sets to 9 car, but sadly that’s very unlikely to happen.

 

[Falcon1200]

So how can GWR release enough trains from other duties to replace their HSTs?

Reduce the timetable, eg in Cornwall as discussed;
Eliminate peak-hour only diagrams, no longer required due to the drop in commuting thanks to Covid;
Reduce train formations, ie 10-car IET diagrams become 5-car, 6 and 4-car DMU diagrams become 2 or 3-car.

Or a combination of the methods. Whichever way, the future is not looking bright.

 

[irish_rail]

LNER have too many 5 cars and not enough 9s as it is, they don’t need more forced on them!

Extra centre cars need to be ordered to lengthen some of the 5 car sets to 9 car, but sadly that’s very unlikely to happen.

GwR have a ridiculous 58 5 car sets to just 35 9 car sets. Every time I see a Cheltenham or a cotswold 5 car train near Paddington its always full. The 5s will be fine for local services and Bedwyn, but other than a handful of trains a day they really don't offer enough capacity and when running as 10s are simply expensive in terms of staffing and wasteful in terms of space. I'm.pretty sure LNER have a much better 9 to 5 ratio than was foisted on GWR. And you can bet your bottom dollar if authorisation is ever given to increase train lengths, it'll be LNERs sets and not GWRs ( the cinderalla of the UK network increasingly in my view).

 

[DanNCL]

GwR have a ridiculous 58 5 car sets to just 35 9 car sets. Every time I see a Cheltenham or a cotswold 5 car train near Paddington its always full. The 5s will be fine for local services and Bedwyn, but other than a handful of trains a day they really don't offer enough capacity and when running as 10s are simply expensive in terms of staffing and wasteful in terms of space. I'm.pretty sure LNER have a much better 9 to 5 ratio than was foisted on GWR. And you can bet your bottom dollar if authorisation is ever given to increase train lengths, it'll be LNERs sets and not GWRs ( the cinderalla of the UK network increasingly in my view).

I’m not disputing LNER have a better ratio of 5s to 9s than GWR, but LNER still have too many 5s. Robbing Peter to pay Paul isn’t the solution.

What needs to happen is extra centre coaches should be ordered for the 36x 800/0s and the 12x 801/1s, leaving the 10x 800/2s and the 22x 802/0s as the only 5 car 80xs between the two TOCs.

 

[irish_rail]

I’m not disputing LNER have a better ratio of 5s to 9s than GWR, but LNER still have too many 5s. Robbing Peter to pay Paul isn’t the solution.

What needs to happen is extra centre coaches should be ordered for the 36x 800/0s and the 12x 801/1s, leaving the 10x 800/2s and the 22x 802/0s as the only 5 car 80xs between the two TOCs.

I think we can both agree however the money won't be found for any lengthening (at least not in medium term). Its a shame as it is much needed. Most of the 5s should be 7s , with 10 car running completely done away with (no extra capacity over a 9 car and more operationally difficult, especially in places like Cornwall).

 

[adc82140]

There will be the TFW class 158s becoming available in the next year or so. I'm aware that the official line is that they are not going to GWR. But they are homeless, and having them either sat in storage or sent to scrap won't be a good look politically if Cornwall is struggling. Last time this happened photos of those 158s stored at Eastleigh make it in to the mainstream press and soon enough they were back in service.

 

[Falcon1200]

In theory having 5-car sets is a Good Thing, because it allows through services to be provided to places whose traffic could not justify a full 9-car train, eg Hereford, West Wales, and (dare I suggest) Cornwall. But we know the difficulties of splitting and joining sets, staffing levels, catering, getting people in the right set, etc. I fear that with no HSTs, all trains on the Cotswold/Oxford/Paddington route for example will become 5-cars only, which on some trains might cope but on others, certainly not.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

A lot of this thread shows the folly of having fixed formation sets rather than stock which can be adjusted as necessary. I guess there will be a thread on that subject somewhere.....

 

[irish_rail]

In theory having 5-car sets is a Good Thing, because it allows through services to be provided to places whose traffic could not justify a full 9-car train, eg Hereford, West Wales, and (dare I suggest) Cornwall. But we know the difficulties of splitting and joining sets, staffing levels, catering, getting people in the right set, etc. I fear that with no HSTs, all trains on the Cotswold/Oxford/Paddington route for example will become 5-cars only, which on some trains might cope but on others, certainly not.

Agreed that there are many cotswold trains that need more than 5 cars. Infact there are few trains on the western that i think cope well with 5 cars. Thats why I think making some sets up to 7 would be useful although not gonna happen.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

There will be the TFW class 158s becoming available in the next year or so. I'm aware that the official line is that they are not going to GWR. But they are homeless, and having them either sat in storage or sent to scrap won't be a good look politically if Cornwall is struggling. Last time this happened photos of those 158s stored at Eastleigh make it in to the mainstream press and soon enough they were back in service.

They aren’t becoming available next year, TfW have just signed a minimum 2 year lease extension to the lease which was expiring end of this year.

 

[anthony263]

Oh I agree with you on that. Why don't they just run the odd crowd busting Paddington/Bristol Parkway/BTM service that runs non stop through Reading and Swindon?

You might get that if grand union get permission to run their Carmarthen to London service. Could work in dfts favour as it allows extra capacity

 

[Snow1964]

Agreed that there are many cotswold trains that need more than 5 cars. Infact there are few trains on the western that i think cope well with 5 cars. Thats why I think making some sets up to 7 would be useful although not gonna happen.

As others have said, having a mix of 5car and 9car is too clunky.

Whilst only having 2 lengths, instead of 3 lengths slightly simplifies diagrams, the benefits of obtaining some extra cars and converting some to 7cars would be lot higher. There are multiple trains where 5cars is insufficient, but doubling up sets is wasteful. Happens on Cotswold lines, services via Bath, and some West Country services

Clearly if don’t need to double up as many trains, then more services can be covered by IETs. The cost of a few intermediate cars should be lot less than the lack of value from double units running with low passenger counts

GWRs Wessex service seems to manage with a mix of 5 types (2 and 3 car 158s, 2 and 3 car 165s, and 3 car 166s), so idea that having 3 lengths of IETs would be unmanageable makes no sense.

 

[Xavi]

Reported from reputable sources elsewhere that there will be no cuts to current Devon / Cornwall timetable. IET 5-car diagrams reduced by 9 over 2019 plans (6 Bristol fasts and 3 Bedwyn) will all go to Cardiff - Taunton - Penzance.

 

[Halish Railway]

I have heard it speculated that TfWs Class 158s will go to Northern instead of new-build 2-carriage Hybrid Class 195s.

What I would suggest is that Avanti West Coasts Voyagers should move to CrossCountry, to restore the hourly Edinburgh to Plymouth services instead of being truncated at Bristol Temple Meads, with every other one of these being extended to Penzance. Additionally, restoring the Manchester Piccadilly to Paignton and Plymouth services would really alleviate the capacity issues caused by GWR having to cut services and run shorter trains to make up for the loss of GWR’s HSTs.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Reported from reputable sources elsewhere that there will be no cuts to current Devon / Cornwall timetable. IET 5-car diagrams reduced by 9 over 2019 plans (6 Bristol fasts and 3 Bedwyn) will all go to Cardiff - Taunton - Penzance.

Yes that is very much the plan, though it’s actually 10 IETs released as the Bristol Fasts released 7 units.

The phased approach is not to do with waiting for the stock to become available but traincrew training on IETs.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I have heard it speculated that TfWs Class 158s will go to Northern instead of new-build 2-carriage Hybrid Class 195s.

What I would suggest is that Avanti West Coasts Voyagers should move to CrossCountry, to restore the hourly Edinburgh to Plymouth services instead of being truncated at Bristol Temple Meads, with every other one of these being extended to Penzance. Additionally, restoring the Manchester Piccadilly to Paignton and Plymouth services would really alleviate the capacity issues caused by GWR having to cut services and run shorter trains to make up for the loss of GWR’s HSTs.

Yes, I was thinking CrossCountry could compensate for lost GWR capacity with Avanti's Voyagers, although arguably they need them to return to their pre-COVID timetable without everything being 4 or 5 coaches.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

GWR having to cut services and run shorter trains to make up for the loss of GWR’s HSTs.

GWR are not cutting services in the West Country, nor running shorter trains in the West Country to replace HSTs.

 

[TheBigD]

The 5 car IET on GWR has 326 seats (36/290). Isn't that a slight increase on the capacity of the 4 carriage Castle HSTs?