TOCs selling incorrect tickets for Elizabeth Line services?

[djh1986]

First time using the Elizabeth Line into London from Heathrow today. Naively booked a specific service on the LNER website and it sold me a ticket for the service with our two together railcard.

Printed it off and it was a zone 1-6 single to Farringdon (our intended destination). Refused by the barriers and then the staff said LNER had sold me an incorrect ticket, it seems as though they are correct too.

Contacted LNER for a refund and I was told it was "impossible" for them to sell the incorrect ticket for a selected service. Any suggestions? I'll be issuing a charge back via the cc if needs be but this is clearly a fault in the system.

 

[miklcct]

Is the ticket "Heathrow Rail" to "London Underground Zones 1-6", routed "Not Heathrow Express"? If so, it is valid and the staff is wrong.

 

[Adam Williams]

Printed it off and it was a zone 1-6 single to Farringdon (our intended destination)

LNER sells me a Heathrow Rail to London Undergrnd Zones 1-6 ticket when I try.

Can you screenshot the booking confirmation and perhaps show us the paper ticket you were actually sold? How much did you pay?

 

[djh1986]

Booking confirmation and ticket attached.

The issue seems to be that a single from zones 1 to 6 isn't valid on the Elizabeth Line from Heathrow despite the ticket being from Heathrow Rail and not the underground. The member of staff said it was an underground only ticket.

 

[hkstudent]

Heathrow Rail stations are not part of the London Underground zone 6, nor Elizabeth Line stations west of Paddington (except Ealing Broadway).

The proper ticket you should have sold is London Zone 1-6 travelcard, with £9.50 per person. What matter worse is: Heathrow airports are staffed by Heathrow Express, not LUL or Elizabeth Line staff.

There are no paper ticket single/return fares set from Heathrow RAIL to Elizabeth Line core stations, and then the system recognise that as London Underground fares instead. A mess setup by TfL, for designating Elizabeth Line core station as LU fares for ticket sales purposes, and asssumes most people in Greater London will not use paper tickets.


I think the ticketing system of many TOCs have problem in differentiating them, due to the complexity of fares in Greater London.
Tbf, next time, use oystercard with railcard discount or contactless payment card if without railcard discount, given that using those cards will be cheaper and also contribute to the daily capping of zones 1-6, which single journey on EZL from Heathrow will almost reach daily capping.

 

[Class800]

Should the OP contact LNER the seller or the operator of the station for staff failing to accept a ticket presented in accordance with its itinerary?

 

[Adam Williams]

Should the OP contact LNER the seller or the operator of the station for staff failing to accept a ticket presented in accordance with its itinerary?

Honestly, both of them. The ticket is valid for travel in conjunction with an accredited TIS' itinerary.

I can't reproduce this behaviour, so I suspect it's possible that it's been fixed by Vix/SilverRail (or I'm just trying searching wrong!)

Contacted LNER for a refund and I was told it was "impossible" for them to sell the incorrect ticket for a selected service

This is a poor-quality response (software is never infallible!) but unfortunately not something that surprises me for first-line customer support. Someone like @Haywain may be able to suggest a way for you get a better response.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The ticket issued by LNER is from LU Zones 1-6 to Farringdon.
From what I can see on BRfares, to be valid on the EL it needs to be from Heathrow Rail to Farringdon (actually Heathrow Rail to LU Z1-6), and routed NOT HX.
The Off-Peak railcard fare quoted is £9.40 (Z1-6 Travelcard is £9.50).

 

[djh1986]

The ticket issued by LNER is from LU Zones 1-6 to Farringdon.
From what I can see on BRfares, to be valid on the EL it needs to be from Heathrow Rail to Farringdon (actually Heathrow Rail to LU Z1-6), and routed NOT HX.
The Off-Peak railcard fare quoted is £9.40 (Z1-6 Travelcard is £9.50).

Yes, having done a bit of Googling it seems that the minimum fare for Heathrow journeys is much higher than normal zone 1-6 journey as sold. Pretty sure LNER are in the wrong although refusing to admit it current.

 

[miklcct]

Booking confirmation and ticket attached.

The issue seems to be that a single from zones 1 to 6 isn't valid on the Elizabeth Line from Heathrow despite the ticket being from Heathrow Rail and not the underground. The member of staff said it was an underground only ticket.

You are correct that you have been rejected entry at Heathrow (Elizabeth line). You can use the ticket to take the Piccadilly line and other Underground services to Farringdon.

Please cancel any dispute / chargeback immediately as LNER has sold you a correct ticket to allow travel from Heathrow Terminal 5 (Piccadilly line) to Farringdon.

The correct ticket for travel via Elizabeth line from Heathrow is "Heathrow Rail" to "London Underground Zones 1-6", as Heathrow (Elizabeth line) is not part of London Underground and its interavailable routes.

Could you please tell me which station you entered into the LNER app to see if LNER has misrepresented the product it sold to you?

 

[Haywain]

This is a poor-quality response (software is never infallible!) but unfortunately not something that surprises me for first-line customer support. Someone like @Haywain may be able to suggest a way for you get a better response.

I’d suggest going back to them and asking them to investigate further with the teams responsible.

 

[hkstudent]

The ticket issued by LNER is from LU Zones 1-6 to Farringdon.
From what I can see on BRfares, to be valid on the EL it needs to be from Heathrow Rail to Farringdon (actually Heathrow Rail to LU Z1-6), and routed NOT HX.
The Off-Peak railcard fare quoted is £9.40 (Z1-6 Travelcard is £9.50).

The £9.40 fare quoted is for London Terminal, but not London Underground zone 1, for the purposes of Elizabeth Line Core Section stations.
Only £9.50 travelcard can be validly sold for that trip. Problem is, many ticketing system don't show travelcard as an option if opting to buy a single ticket.

 

[jon81uk]

Booking confirmation and ticket attached.

The issue seems to be that a single from zones 1 to 6 isn't valid on the Elizabeth Line from Heathrow despite the ticket being from Heathrow Rail and not the underground. The member of staff said it was an underground only ticket.

The ticket clearly states London Underground? Heathrow Rail isn't mentioned anywhere.

I've just tried on LNERs site and it offers to sell me a ticket from Heathrow Rail TO Underground Z1-6 for £14.30 (no railcard).

 

[djh1986]

The ticket clearly states London Underground? Heathrow Rail isn't mentioned anywhere.

I've just tried on LNERs site and it offers to sell me a ticket from Heathrow Rail TO Underground Z1-6 for £14.30 (no railcard).

It does state it in the itinerary.

Certainly seems to be fixed for future dates but that's a very recent fix if so. This ticket was sold two weeks ago days ago on the service in the screenshot of the booking confirmation.

 

[Horizon22]

Yes, having done a bit of Googling it seems that the minimum fare for Heathrow journeys is much higher than normal zone 1-6 journey as sold. Pretty sure LNER are in the wrong although refusing to admit it current.

Recently upped by TfL to essentially make it "peak" all day.

 

[hkstudent]

Recently upped by TfL to essentially make it "peak" all day.

That's not the major clause.
The major reason was Heathrow Airport Rail Tunnel has high access charge, thus Heathrow service are in premium.
The "peak" fare issue just be the cream on top of the expensive cake.

 

[jon81uk]

It does state it in the itinerary.

Certainly seems to be fixed for future dates but that's a very recent fix if so. This ticket was sold two weeks ago days ago on the service in the screenshot of the booking confirmation.

Again might just be the fact it is now fixed, but the itinerary in the screenshot states Heathrow Terminal 5 without specifying Underground or Rail. At a glance I would assume its an Underground to Underground journey.
New bookings clearly seem to show Heathrow Rail.

 

[djh1986]

Again might just be the fact it is now fixed, but the itinerary in the screenshot states Heathrow Terminal 5 without specifying Underground or Rail. At a glance I would assume its an Underground to Underground journey.
New bookings clearly seem to show Heathrow Rail.

Except the itinerary shown and selected is an Elizabeth Line service, not an underground service.

 

[miklcct]

Except the itinerary shown and selected is an Elizabeth Line service, not an underground service.

Can you post a screenshot showing that it is an Elizabeth line service?

 

[Starmill]

The ticket clearly states London Underground?

For the avoidence of doubt, the only paper tickets available for travel on Elizabeth line services in the Crossrail Central Operating Section (CCOS) are:

- tickets with a cross-London marker
- tickets with validity in the relevant Travelcard Zones
- tickets to or from London Underground zones, wherever issued
- All Line Rover tickets, BritRail passes and Interrail passes with validity in England

In certain cases they may also bear a named station, as either an origin or a destination. Obviously this doesn't account for the various kinds of staff pass which are valid or Pay as you Go travel, and is only for paper tickets.

You probably already knew that I know but I thought it would be useful to clarify to anyone reading that this is why there's likely to be some doubt about the use of London Underground tickets between Hayes & Harlington snd Heathrow stations. The TfL position is that this is not permitted.

To summarise, TfL position that only LU tickets are available for part of the routr but LU tickets are not valid for another part is cakeism of the highest order and they shouldn't have been permitted to set fares in this way.

 

[matt_world2004]

Shouldn't have been branded almost identically.as a tube line if tube tickets are not valid on the whole route within the respective zones

 

[Starmill]

Shouldn't have been branded almost identically.as a tube line if tube tickets are not valid on the whole route within the respective zones

Indeed. London Underground tickets are formally valid on the DLR also, even if they specify London Underground.

 

[cactustwirly]

I'm struggling to understand how it can be argued that the OPs ticket is invalid.

A) they clearly have an itinerary which uses an Elizabeth line service.

B) Heathrow is in Travel card zone 6, which is clearly marked on the line maps onboard the train.

 

[hkstudent]

I'm struggling to understand how it can be argued that the OPs ticket is invalid.

A) they clearly have an itinerary which uses an Elizabeth line service.

B) Heathrow is in Travel card zone 6, which is clearly marked on the line maps onboard the train.

I think likely is:

A) Heathrow Express staff are not well trained in National rail tickets apart from the usual ones as they are not part of ATOC.

B) Despite it's in Travelcard zone 6, Heathrow Rail is not part of London Underground, just like the case of National Rail stations do not accept LU zone ticket as destination except it's enroute.

 

[matt_world2004]

Indeed. London Underground tickets are formally valid on the DLR also, even if they specify London Underground.

The worse thing is according to the internal staff brief u zone tickets have printed on them also valid on the Elizabeth line even if they are not outside the core

 

[hkstudent]

For the avoidence of doubt, the only paper tickets available for travel on Elizabeth line services in the Crossrail Central Operating Section (CCOS) are:

- tickets with a cross-London marker
- tickets with validity in the relevant Travelcard Zones
- tickets to or from London Underground zones, wherever issued
- All Line Rover tickets, BritRail passes and Interrail passes with validity in England

In certain cases they may also bear a named station, as either an origin or a destination. Obviously this doesn't account for the various kinds of staff pass which are valid or Pay as you Go travel, and is only for paper tickets.

You probably already knew that I know but I thought it would be useful to clarify to anyone reading that this is why there's likely to be some doubt about the use of London Underground tickets between Hayes & Harlington snd Heathrow stations. The TfL position is that this is not permitted.

To summarise, TfL position that only LU tickets are available for part of the routr but LU tickets are not valid for another part is cakeism of the highest order and they shouldn't have been permitted to set fares in this way.

It's not really cakeism because it has long be a practice in Greater London.
Fares on TfL owned infrastructure are on TfL fare scale and not compatible with National Rail ones.
Meanwhile, most of the intra London journeys are paid by Oystercard/Contactless Payment Card, so making paper fares higher to discourage the use of papers.
Furthermore, TfL is responsible to London residents, not people of the UK or tourists. The fare hike by mix mode charge is likely be required by DfT to maximize revenue as part of the funding agreement. If there's a need of integrated fares, then DfT need to give more subsidies.

 

[matt_world2004]

So a ticket printed with valid via the Elizabeth line is not valid on the Elizabeth line

 

[miklcct]

So a ticket printed with valid via the Elizabeth line is not valid on the Elizabeth line

If this is the case TfL violates consumer law.

 

[Starmill]

It's not really cakeism because it has long be a practice in Greater London.
Fares on TfL owned infrastructure are on TfL fare scale and not compatible with National Rail ones.
Meanwhile, most of the intra London journeys are paid by Oystercard/Contactless Payment Card, so making paper fares higher to discourage the use of papers.
Furthermore, TfL is responsible to London residents, not people of the UK or tourists. The fare hike by mix mode charge is likely be required by DfT to maximize revenue as part of the funding agreement. If there's a need of integrated fares, then DfT need to give more subsidies.

Those are pay as you go charges. They are at liberty to set those as they wish, within the bounds of competition law at least, and in accordance with the local political proceedings.

However, they're specifically stating in this case that they won't offer any paper tickets for sale in the CCOS because London Underground tickets are valid, but then refusing to permit London Underground tickets to be used outside of the CCOS. They could have created a dedicated set of Elizabeth line only paper tickets which would have solved this, but didn't want to. This is obviously cakeism. The result of this decision is this situation:

So a ticket printed with valid via the Elizabeth line is not valid on the Elizabeth line

 

[miklcct]

However, they're specifically stating in this case that they won't offer any paper tickets for sale in the CCOS because London Underground tickets are valid, but then refusing to permit London Underground tickets to be used outside of the CCOS. They could have created a dedicated set of Elizabeth line only paper tickets which would have solved this, but didn't want to. This is obviously cakeism. The result of this decision is this situation:

I don't understand the last paragraph. Paper tickets are still available for sale in the CCOS in form of a National Rail station - U zone ticket, and the validity of the Underground ticket in the CCOS is established by means of "interavailability", which only covers Paddington - Abbey Wood on Elizabeth line. This doesn't itself make Elizabeth line part of London Underground. This does not invalidate any existing validity on other National Rail tickets which have validity on Elizabeth line according to NRCoT or the Routeing Guide, for example, tickets to Farringdon with route "Not Underground".

If a National Rail ticket routed "via Elizabeth line" is denied on an Elizabeth line train or station, I will be happy to see the case in court.