GWR Class 769 information. (Units no longer with GWR - Off Lease March 23)

[JonathanH]

The key question for the North Down Line is, what comes next? The 165s will die eventually.

There is reportedly some analysis being done about a GWR fleet replacement plan with new rolling stock due around the end of the decade.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Meanwhile, the local bit of ASLEF has been diligent in pointing out that the idea of asking drivers to return to 90s working conditions isn't a great sell and have been holding their ground.

I agree with this, but do not think it should be the sole reason for withholding them from service only all the while the same conditions are given to drivers on Transport for Wales, Northern, London Northwestern Railway and - if Sprinters have the same conditions as 319s which I reckon they will - ScotRail, EMR and GWR's West drivers as well.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2022 ==

There is reportedly some analysis being done about a GWR fleet replacement plan with new rolling stock due around the end of the decade.

Yes, I heard this and very much look forward to seeing what is specified/tendered and later procured.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is reportedly some analysis being done about a GWR fleet replacement plan with new rolling stock due around the end of the decade.

There's apparently an article in this month's Modern Railways about it, but I haven't got that far through it yet.

 

[JonathanH]

do not think it should be the sole reason for withholding them from service only all the while the same conditions are given to drivers on Transport for Wales, Northern, London Northwestern Railway

The big difference is that 319s / 769s are being / due to be withdrawn on those routes, whereas on GWR 769s would be being introduced. Indeed, it seems possible that TfW 769s and LNR 319s will already be out of service before the earliest date GWR could introduce 769s.

[To be pedantic, there is no published withdrawal plan for Northern 769s, but LNR 319s, TfW 769s and Northern 319s are all confirmed for withdrawal.]

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

To be pedantic, there is no published withdrawal plan for Northern 769s

This makes what you said earlier in the post therefore irrelevant, as the point is while other driving staff are subject to the same conditions it seems unfair that they're made to put up with it while others aren't. Sprinters also have no (in the short term) withdrawal plan other than at Transport for Wales.

 

[JonathanH]

This makes what you said earlier in the post therefore irrelevant, as the point is while other driving staff are subject to the same conditions it seems unfair that they're made to put up with it while others aren't. Sprinters also have no (in the short term) withdrawal plan other than at Transport for Wales.

But that is just 'race to the bottom' stuff. Why should GWR drivers have to put up with unacceptable working conditions just because some other drivers have to?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

But that is just 'race to the bottom' stuff. Why should GWR drivers have to put up with unacceptable working conditions just because some other drivers have to?

I don't for one minute think that anyone should have to put up with unacceptable working conditions, but if the 150s are worked by the West team without complaint and the 15x and 769s are worked by Northern and ScotRail without complaint, then you wonder if it's right that this should be the only barrier preventing entry to service if no one has really complained before. Sure, they've been used to 165s, but EMR seemed to have no problem giving unrefurbished 360s to paying customers that have been used to Meridians and HSTs. I won't dispute this too heavily though for fear of being accused of starting more ASLEF debates.

But - I do want to know... IS this currently the only reason for them not entering service? As far as I was aware there were physical and software issues with the trains, not just demands from drivers.

 

[Ribbleman]

The three fleets of 769s subtly different. The TfW batch of eight (should be nine) are purely DEMUs, don't have pantographs and weren't delivered with the electrical collection devices operational.

The Northern 769s operate from 25kV OLE and their MAN diesels.

The GWR 769s should collect 750V DC via shoes, and 25kV from the OLE where obtainable, as well as their diesels.

This means that a lot of work would need to be done to the Northern and TfW fleets to use them from Reading including cabs, air cooling and connectional equipment, probably ASDO and making the DC gear operational - including relocating the shoe beams to the inner bogies - per the 769/9s.

AIUI the TfW fleet are planned to stand down in May 2023 when the Stadlers and CAFs replace them, but have no idea if Northern have a stand down plan for their 769s in the coming years. If so, I presume it would return to straight diesels

A member of Northern’s management told me that there is nothing currently available to replace their 8 x 769s and that, in any case they will be paying Porterbrook for them until 2025 when the leases expire.

 

[Southern Dvr]

More likely, as 165s approach the end of their natural life in a few years time, panic will ensue, but only after the DfT, under pressure from the Treasury, will have royally cocked up what to do, yet again.

More likely DfT will just close the line to passenger traffic. This is not a government who cares for public transport.

 

[Towers]

I don't for one minute think that anyone should have to put up with unacceptable working conditions, but if the 150s are worked by the West team without complaint and the 15x and 769s are worked by Northern and ScotRail without complaint, then you wonder if it's right that this should be the only barrier preventing entry to service if no one has really complained before. Sure, they've been used to 165s, but EMR seemed to have no problem giving unrefurbished 360s to paying customers that have been used to Meridians and HSTs. I won't dispute this too heavily though for fear of being accused of starting more ASLEF debates.

In fairness the cabs of 15x are very different to a 319/769, so the same issues don't exist. We've also had posts in the past from drivers describing how their TOC has received cascaded stock and told crews that the cab aircon won't be maintained going forwards, so perhaps we can infer that Aslef's local reps have different requirements in some places than they do in others?

 

[Greybeard33]

A member of Northern’s management told me that there is nothing currently available to replace their 8 x 769s and that, in any case they will be paying Porterbrook for them until 2025 when the leases expire.

The Manchester Task Force has provisionally proposed a timetable recast in 2025 that would see EMUs replacing 769s on the newly electrified routes from Manchester to Stalybridge via Ashton and to Wigan via Bolton.

https://democracy.transportforthenorth.com/documents/s5505/Manchester%20Task%20Force.pdf

 

[Deepgreen]

It appears that 769935 is running in service today between Gatwick and Reading (p15, thence to depot). Am I wrong?

 

[30909]

It appears that 769935 is running in service today between Gatwick and Reading. Am I wrong?View attachment 124485

I think you may be incorrect, it is described as Unadvertised Express, its an STP with 1Z45 identity and Driver Only Opperated, perhaps it's a first of GWR driver training runs?

 

[AM9]

I think you may be incorrect, it is described as Unadvertised Express, its an STP with 1Z45 identity and Driver Only Opperated, perhaps it's a first of GWR driver training runs?

The comment: "Pathed as a Diesel locomotive, trailing load 769 tonnes at 100mph" looks a bit suspicious, - I know that is a timing load but what running on the NDL could have that large a training load running at 100mph?

 

[JonathanH]

The comment: "Pathed as a Diesel locomotive, trailing load 769 tonnes at 100mph" looks a bit suspicious, - I know that is a timing load but what running on the NDL could have that large a training load running at 100mph?

That just means it is pathed as a class 769, not that a diesel locomotive or trailing load is involved, nor indeed that it will go 100mph, on a route where the prevailing limit is 70mph. Just a feature of how the NR feed describes 769 timings.

All of the GWR workings on the North Downs Line have been timed in this way for some years now.

 

[FGW_DID]

Not Driver training, those would still run as ECS. Believe todays run was for the MD / Execs and possibly some invited guests.

There’s some testing coming up this week (or next) which should see an 8 car 769 out and about.

 

[geoffk]

I think I've guessed the GWR stand-down plan.

3tph between Reading and Gatwick is now a mirage, while expansion plans further west are stalled (at best). Meanwhile, the local bit of ASLEF has been diligent in pointing out that the idea of asking drivers to return to 90s working conditions isn't a great sell and have been holding their ground.

If I see a 769 in passenger service at my local North Downs Line station I won't eat my hat, but I would be very, very surprised.

The key question for the North Down Line is, what comes next? The 165s will die eventually.

More likely, as 165s approach the end of their natural life in a few years time, panic will ensue, but only after the DfT, under pressure from the Treasury, will have royally cocked up what to do, yet again.

Or third rail and transfer to Southern (or South-Eastern)? Presumably the Govt can over-rule any ORR objection to more third rail.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Not Driver training, those would still run as ECS. Believe todays run was for the MD / Execs and possibly some invited guests.

There’s some testing coming up this week (or next) which should see an 8 car 769 out and about.

Ooh nice... is this some progress then?

 

[Deepgreen]

The comment: "Pathed as a Diesel locomotive, trailing load 769 tonnes at 100mph" looks a bit suspicious, - I know that is a timing load but what running on the NDL could have that large a training load running at 100mph?

I was more focused on the fact that it was operated by 769935 - a specific unit being given - and that it was a 1Zxx working, indicating it not being ECS or training. The "769 tonnes" nonsense has been a standard thing on the route for ages now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2022 ==

I think you may be incorrect, it is described as Unadvertised Express, its an STP with 1Z45 identity and Driver Only Opperated, perhaps it's a first of GWR driver training runs?

They do not carry 1xxx headcodes, but 3xxx. 1xxx implies passenger-carrying.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2022 ==

Not Driver training, those would still run as ECS. Believe todays run was for the MD / Execs and possibly some invited guests.

There’s some testing coming up this week (or next) which should see an 8 car 769 out and about.

8 cars on the NDL (or just the GWML)?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2022 ==

Ooh nice... is this some progress then?

Perhaps - hoping so, or it could have been to show the top brass where so much of their money has disappeared to and to break the news to them in transit!

 

[cactustwirly]

I don't for one minute think that anyone should have to put up with unacceptable working conditions, but if the 150s are worked by the West team without complaint and the 15x and 769s are worked by Northern and ScotRail without complaint, then you wonder if it's right that this should be the only barrier preventing entry to service if no one has really complained before. Sure, they've been used to 165s, but EMR seemed to have no problem giving unrefurbished 360s to paying customers that have been used to Meridians and HSTs. I won't dispute this too heavily though for fear of being accused of starting more ASLEF debates.

But - I do want to know... IS this currently the only reason for them not entering service? As far as I was aware there were physical and software issues with the trains, not just demands from drivers.

It would be a very easy way for GWR to save costs by ditching the 769s and keeping the 165s at Reading

 

[JonathanH]

1xxx implies passenger-carrying.

Indeed, but those passengers don't have to be 'normal' fare-paying passengers. I imagine 'invited guests' can't be carried on 3xxx and 5xxx services.

 

[Benjwri]

Indeed, but those passengers don't have to be 'normal' fare-paying passengers. I imagine 'invited guests' can't be carried on 3xxx and 5xxx services.

1 headcode will also avoid delays an ECS might face. I would imagine the invited guests wouldn't be very happy sitting in a siding for half an hour.

 

[FGW_DID]

8 cars on the NDL (or just the GWML)?

no other details known at the moment.

 

[Deepgreen]

Indeed, but those passengers don't have to be 'normal' fare-paying passengers. I imagine 'invited guests' can't be carried on 3xxx and 5xxx services.

Absolutely, hence my interest being piqued by this run. I wondered whether it would have been a trial run for passenger assessment (less likely) or a VIP one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Nov 2022 ==

no other details known at the moment.

OK, thanks.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It would be a very easy way for GWR to save costs by ditching the 769s and keeping the 165s at Reading

Mmm, as you've told me before.

 

[RPI]

It would be a very easy way for GWR to save costs by ditching the 769s and keeping the 165s at Reading

Not really, the West desperately needs the extra units, Devon and Cornwall are one of the few areas where actual passenger numbers are exceeding pre-covid

 

[Deepgreen]

Not really, the West desperately needs the extra units, Devon and Cornwall are one of the few areas where actual passenger numbers are exceeding pre-covid

While apparently about to withdraw the 'Castle' HSTs.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

While apparently about to withdraw the 'Castle' HSTs.

This might not be GWR's decision, rather the DfTs - and - the fact that GWR have overcrowded services does not change the fact these are approximately fifty year old trains, absolutely knackered, with questionable health and safety and expensive to run - plus, when the ordered 769s finally enter service, said overcrowding issue will be resolved anyway.

 

[RPI]

While apparently about to withdraw the 'Castle' HSTs.

Precisely

 

[Deepgreen]

This might not be GWR's decision, rather the DfTs - and - the fact that GWR have overcrowded services does not change the fact these are approximately fifty year old trains, absolutely knackered, with questionable health and safety and expensive to run - plus, when the ordered 769s finally enter service, said overcrowding issue will be resolved anyway.

I agree, but I suspect the west's capacity issues will not be resolved by 769s (or 165s) with reliability looking like it will be low, judging by performance thus far and with other operators.