Could 221142 & 221143 go to CrossCountry?

[anamyd]

When will they be going to CrossCountry?

 

[JonathanH]

When will they be going to CrossCountry?

No one knows. There has been no announcement.

 

[fgwrich]

No one knows. There has been no announcement.

In a roundabout way, I can still see these heading to XC. If Laira ultimately decides that it doesn’t want to continue maintaining the XC HST fleet, XC will likely be in need to replace them with something else. XC HSTs binned off, Ex VWC Voyagers to replace them. It all needs DfT authorisation, but the Laira situation might make them more attractive now.

 

[JonathanH]

Equally XC getting no increase in stock to replace its HSTs is also possible.

There really isn't any point in speculating about enhancements (ie rolling stock increases) given the railway circumstances and the very apparent desire to control railway spending. It would appear than any business case to enhance services would need to show it could be done at no cost to the Treasury.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It all needs DfT authorisation, but the Laira situation might make them more attractive now.

What’s far more attractive to the DfT I’m sure is taking the XC HSTs out of traffic without bringing in any replacements.

Privately owned rolling stock which is off lease isn’t really the DfT’s concern.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

When will they be going to CrossCountry?

No one has said they are...

 

[DannyMich2018]

Maybe the 221s could be reformed so XCs 221136 and 221140 can go back to 5 coaches with the 2 off lease 221142 and 143 going back to their original 4 car formation.with 221144 having its correct 4th coach too.

 

[DanNCL]

As I’ve mentioned in another thread the only option for XC to keep their HSTs if they’re forced to leave Laira is to use Heaton as the home base, which would require a major rework of the HST and Voyager diagrams that simply isn’t likely to happen.

Does XC serve a large number of marginal constituencies? That could influence the government’s decision as to whether XC will get the West Coast 221s or not?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

As I’ve mentioned in another thread the only option for XC to keep their HSTs if they’re forced to leave Laira is to use Heaton as the home base, which would require a major rework of the HST and Voyager diagrams that simply isn’t likely to happen.

Does XC serve a large number of marginal constituencies? That could influence the government’s decision as to whether XC will get the West Coast 221s or not?

They could also use Long Rock or possibly even St Philips Marsh if desired but again would require a rework of diagrams

 

[Starmill]

They could if the price comes down. Or if CrossCountry suddenly start earning more money from somewhere.

 

[DanNCL]

They could also use Long Rock or possibly even St Philips Marsh if desired but again would require a rework of diagrams

Do either have the space available?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Do either have the space available?

Now GWR HSTs are going yes.

 

[secretsquirels]

Heaton don’t have HST knowledge anymore

 

[43096]

Heaton don’t have HST knowledge anymore

Heaton had long since lost HST knowledge when Grand Central based their sets there, too...

 

[DanNCL]

Heaton don’t have HST knowledge anymore

Heaton still handles the NMT.

 

[Starmill]

Long Rock is also very unlikely because it would tie XC into serving Penzance. No guarantee of this continuing has been given.

Either way the CrossCountry HST fleet still clearly only has a few years of life left. Same as the GWR sets and the Chiltern locomotive hauled sets.

 

[D365]

Heaton still handles the NMT.

I was only aware of the NR & Colas Class 43s being based at Derby RTC.

 

[DanNCL]

I was only aware of the NR & Colas Class 43s being based at Derby RTC.

Indeed they are based at Derby RTC - the post I was replying to said that Heaton doesn't sign them anymore, I was making the point that someone there must sign them for the frequent visits that the NMT continues to make there.

 

[secretsquirels]

Heaton have absolutely nothing to do with the NMT. It comes in, is stabled by the NMT driver, and stays exactly in situ until the NMT driver comes back to prep it for departure. Never looked at, never fuelled, never touched.

 

[SeanG]

I am all for using the HSTs as much as possible - indeed I often time a trip to use one over a voyager.

However, one has to admit at nearly 50 years old and now as non standard stock their race is run. If it is cheaper, which I am sure it will be, to have a uniform fleet of voyagers then I would advocate that it is probably for the best that their work is turned over to voyagers and they make their way to Booths, or better still preservation.

 

[Kite159]

I can see them eventually heading to XC to bin off the HSTs when the DfT make up their minds.

I dare say an extra 5 voyagers (hopefully more if they get all of them to allow more services to be doubled up more of the time) will cost less in maintenance than the HST sets, yet along in training costs.

 

[JonathanH]

I can see them eventually heading to XC to bin off the HSTs when the DfT make up their minds.

HST withdrawal could be achieved without the need for any Voyagers from Avanti. As has been mentioned in a number of threads there is no indication that either the DfT or the Treasury are interested in service enhancements, and a clear indication that they want costs reduced.

 

[Kite159]

HST withdrawal could be achieved without the need for any Voyagers from Avanti. As has been mentioned in a number of threads there is no indication that either the DfT or the Treasury are interested in service enhancements, and a clear indication that they want costs reduced.

Knowing the DfT the HSTs will get withdrawn with no replacements so more XC services on the reduced timetable will run as single units causing more severe overcrowding on some routes (Oxford - Banbury etc)

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Knowing the DfT the HSTs will get withdrawn with no replacements so more XC services on the reduced timetable will run as single units causing more severe overcrowding on some routes (Oxford - Banbury etc)

Which can then be managed by changing the availability of the cheapest advance purchase tickets thus ensuring there is no worse crowding than present and also better aligning revenue with costs. A win win for treasury, the same revenue for less cost.

 

[Kite159]

Which can then be managed by changing the availability of the cheapest advance purchase tickets thus ensuring there is no worse crowding than present and also better aligning revenue with costs. A win win for treasury, the same revenue for less cost.

Depends if those trains will remain overcrowded even without advance fares on offer. With all the passengers on flexible tickets.

Ie Reading to Oxford in the evening when GWR don't stop at Reading forcing not only passengers for Oxford & Banbury+ further north but any passengers for stations towards the Cotswold line.

 

[JonathanH]

Of the 58 XC Voyagers, RTT suggests that 8 (220001/05/07/11/19/29/32/221128) aren't allocated today, although some of the others appear to be working empty stuff.

I thought that 53 were diagrammed pre-March 2020 so it seems that if only 50 are working today there is some slack in the diagrams to bin off the HSTs without needing 221142 and 221143 (or any other Avanti Voyagers).

 

[TheBigD]

Of the 58 XC Voyagers, RTT suggests that 8 (220001/05/07/11/19/29/32/221128) aren't allocated today, although some of the others appear to be working empty stuff.

I thought that 53 were diagrammed pre-March 2020 so it seems that if only 50 are working today there is some slack in the diagrams to bin off the HSTs without needing 221142 and 221143 (or any other Avanti Voyagers).

Isn't 220019 long term out of traffic after hitting a tree near Kenilworth a while back?

 

[irish_rail]

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== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Nov 2022 ==

Depends if those trains will remain overcrowded even without advance fares on offer. With all the passengers on flexible tickets.

Ie Reading to Oxford in the evening when GWR don't stop at Reading forcing not only passengers for Oxford & Banbury+ further north but any passengers for stations towards the Cotswold line.

Spare a thought for users of the Birmingham to Plymouth line. Frequently overcrowded 4 or 5 car sets and not just for half hour either. Hour after hour. Any spare sets are desperately needed on the Ne SW axis.

 

[D365]

Any spare sets are desperately needed on the Ne SW axis.

Agree entirely, but whether they will show up is another story.

 

[IanXC]

I have a feeling this will be one where the DfT takes a wider industry view. If they agree to the 20 Avanti Voyagers moving to XC (100 vehicles, but passenger capacity circa 80 due to driving cabs?), scrap the HSTs (40 vehicles), then release some portion of the 170 fleet to allow for other TOCs to withdraw aging expensive to maintain stock elsewhere....

Far too logical I suppose.