Back to square one. RMT - RDG talks end.

[Bald Rick]

The DfT can say whatever they like but nobody believes it's true that if there were no strikes there'd be no more cuts, it's an absolutely ridiculous thing to suggest.

I don’t think anyone has suggested that. I certainly haven’t.

 

[66701GBRF]

I'm not sure a general strike is a good idea, it didn't work in 1926 and isn't it technically illegal to have support strikes?

Sympathy strikes are illegal. Coordinated strikes are not as far as I’m aware.

 

[nedchester]

I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't more strike calls but there is a work to rule and/or ban on overtime or rest day working across NR and TOCs.

That would cause chaos on a day basis; it would also highlight understaffing in certain areas.

 

[43066]

That wasn’t my point. My point is simply that for every strike the industry loses money; there’s no more money in the transport opex budget, therefore that money has to be saved somewhere. And that somewhere is going to be by reducing services.

Well the “there’s no more money” argument, and the size of the opex budgets are value judgements. There’s apparently money to give people on benefits a pay rise….

They should try it. End of employment contracts of all strikers and offer to rehire them on substantially worse terms (but still generous, vs other public sector jobs) that would go some way to reducing the bloated costs of England's rail industry (next stops: procurement and rolling stock).

Lovely. Well, since you want that for me as a “striker”, I sincerely wish the same on you…

The amount of “if the NHS can strike why shouldn’t we,” suggests some believe the two are remotely comparable?

There’s your bias against railway staff coming out again...

My mate who works in the NHS has had the easiest couple of years of his career and is still getting a payrise. Why shouldn’t I given that I haven’t had one for three years.

The government paid millions of people to sit on their backsides for months and has now apparently even found money to give scroungers on benefits a payrise, yet apparently tells us with a straight face there’s no money for railway staff?

That is absolutely disgusting.

 

[Iskra]

Honestly there really are some deluded people on here.

Fire and rehire lol yeah good luck with that.

So, assuming no payrise is offered, how do you resolve the situation?

Well both things can't be true at once.

I'm sure the government will try and blame striking workers for the cuts they want to introduce, but look at the appalling timetables some TOCs are running with some places completely cut off and others having had their service decimated, and that was from before any industrial action. The DfT can say whatever they like but nobody believes it's true that if there were no strikes there'd be no more cuts, it's an absolutely ridiculous thing to suggest. As I said in another thread on the subject, when ALL government departments are facing cuts, why is it only transport where the workers are being blamed? The Tories won't be able to isolate rail cuts from the rest of their austerity agenda.

If passenger figures are down on 2019, surely (proportional) cuts are entirely rational? If you are fighting any and all cuts for an industry that has shrunk, you’re unlikely to win much wider sympathy.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not sure a general strike is a good idea, it didn't work in 1926 and isn't it technically illegal to have support strikes?

Whether it is a good idea or not, it is questionable what the impact would be to the day to day lives of most of the population. Only 23% of the U.K. workforce are members of a trade union.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2022 ==

Well the “there’s no more money” argument, and the size of the opex budgets are value judgements. There’s apparently money to give people on benefits a pay rise….

The transport budget and social care budgets are different, as I’m sure you know.

The government paid millions of people to sit on their backsides for months and has now apparently even found money to give scroungers on benefits a payrise

Come on, you‘re better than that.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There’s your bias against railway staff coming out again...

My mate who works in the NHS has had the easiest couple of years of his career and is still getting a payrise. Why shouldn’t I given that I haven’t had one for three years.

The government paid millions of people to sit on their backsides for months and has now apparently even found money to give scroungers on benefits a payrise, yet there’s no money for railway staff?

Actually I was also stating that the two aren't comparable because no one is at physical risk from a rail staff walkout. An NHS one will alarm many people and prompt far more immediate action. At worst, most members of the public see that the railway are striking, think ugh the trains won't run again, grumble a bit and just not travel that day. Lack of NHS staff is a far more scary and urgent issue.

 

[Thirteen]

Whether it is a good idea or not, it is questionable what the impact would be to the day to day lives of most of the population. Only 23% of the U.K. workforce are members of a trade union.

The real risk is how much goodwill can the public have if they can't get to work because the public transport was on strikes for days on end or having routine appointments postponed indefinitely.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The government paid millions of people to sit on their backsides for months and has now apparently even found money to give scroungers on benefits a payrise, yet apparently tells us with a straight face there’s no money for railway staff?

That is absolutely disgusting.

The IRONY of you saying it's disgusting to deny rail staff a pay rise in the same sentence of you calling those on benefits "scroungers." Particularly hurtful to those on this forum who claim disability benefits (and I know there are some members that are, so they may see this) because they've got a condition that doesn't allow them to work like you and I can.

This is what I mean when I say that these arguments over strikes bring out some real unpleasantness.

 

[Iskra]

Well the “there’s no more money” argument, and the size of the opex budgets are value judgements. There’s apparently money to give people on benefits a pay rise….



Lovely. Well, since you want that for me as a “striker”, I sincerely wish the same on you…



There’s your bias against railway staff coming out again...

My mate who works in the NHS has had the easiest couple of years of his career and is still getting a payrise. Why shouldn’t I given that I haven’t had one for three years.

The government paid millions of people to sit on their backsides for months and has now apparently even found money to give scroungers on benefits a payrise, yet apparently tells us with a straight face there’s no money for railway staff?

That is absolutely disgusting.

It’s interesting how the left-wing solidarity rhetoric goes out of the window when it comes to pay-rises. Benefits exist for a reason, those are some of the poorest in our society at a time of increasing hardship.

 

[bramling]

So, assuming no payrise is offered, how do you resolve the situation?

What I suspect will happen is the government will attempt to ride this out, throwing in a few nasty quips about evil union barons along the way, in the hope that staff find themselves bled dry by the repeated loss of pay.

In order for that to work there would have to be some attempt to prevent staff being able to replace the income lost on strike days with rest day working.

Then there’s the point that riding it out becomes politically untenable, though I think this government has already reached the point of being pretty untenable even to substantial elements of its core vote (notwithstanding Sunak’s effort to buy off pensioners and benefit claimants).

The wild card is it may be something completely external that ends all this, another government catastrophe from which pressure for a general election becomes too much to bear and the government implodes. People remain fuming about the Truss/Kwarteng debacle, so patience is already wafer thin.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2022 ==

The IRONY of you saying it's disgusting to deny rail staff a pay rise in the same sentence of you calling those on benefits "scroungers." Particularly hurtful to those on this forum who claim disability benefits (and I know there are some members that are, so they may see this) because they've got a condition that doesn't allow them to work like you and I can.

He hasn’t called everyone on benefits “benefits scroungers”, but we all know not everyone claiming benefits has a disability, so I find the original point entirely fair.

It is worth remembering that recipients of benefits are broadly one of the groups who have tended to be insulated from much of the Covid hardship over the last 3 years.

 

[Iskra]

What I suspect will happen is the government will attempt to ride this out, throwing in a few nasty quips about evil union barons along the way, in the hope that staff find themselves bled dry by the repeated loss of pay.

In order for that to work there would have to be some attempt to prevent staff being able to replace the income lost on strike days with rest day working.

Then there’s the point that riding it out becomes politically untenable, though I think this government has already reached the point of being pretty untenable even to substantial elements of its core vote (notwithstanding Sunak’s effort to buy off pensioners and benefit claimants).

The wild card is it may be something completely external that ends all this, another government catastrophe from which pressure for a general election becomes too much to bear and the government implodes. People remain fuming about the Truss/Kwarteng debacle, so patience is already wafer thin.

Thank you for your interesting and thought-provoking answer.

 

[All Line Rover]

It’s interesting how the left-wing solidarity rhetoric goes out of the window when it comes to pay-rises. Benefits exist for a reason, those are some of the poorest in our society at a time of increasing hardship.

Isn't Universal Credit £90 a week or something, on average? Not a particularly relevant point to raise in a thread discussing employment conditions in the rail sector!

 

[43066]

because no one is at physical risk from a rail staff walkout. An NHS one will alarm many people and prompt far more immediate action.

Yet the government want to make it much harder for railway staff to strike, but not to impose such restrictions on NHS staff. Go figure.

The IRONY of you saying it's disgusting to deny rail staff a pay rise in the same sentence of you calling those on benefits "scroungers." Particularly hurtful to those on this forum who claim disability benefits (and I know there are some members that are, so they may see this) because they've got a condition that doesn't allow them to work like you and I can.

This is what I mean when I say that these arguments over strikes bring out some real unpleasantness.

I don’t need sanctimonious lectures on disabilities from the likes of you, I can assure you. I also never said everyone on benefits is a scrounger.

I couldn’t care less if you think it’s unpleasant - you’ll notice upthread someone openly wished myself and colleagues to be fired and rehired but I guess that’s okay….

In going to bow out of this for now before I really lose my rag.

 

[All Line Rover]

It is worth remembering that recipients of benefits are broadly one of the groups who have tended to be insulated from much of the Covid hardship over the last 3 years.

Wtf? What evidence do you have to support that proposition?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2022 ==

Yet the government want to make it much harder for railway staff to strike, but not to impose such restrictions on NHS staff. Go figure.

NHS staff are, generally, highly skilled workers who have the potential to relocate, should they wish, to other countries which offer better employment terms to their healthcare workers. These are not comparable industries.

I couldn’t care less if you think it’s unpleasant - you’ll notice upthread someone openly wished myself and colleagues to be fired and rehired but I guess that’s okay….

In going to bow out of this for now before I really lose my rag.

I think there's a significant difference between re-employing someone in the wealthiest decile of society earning (say) £65k on a new contract offering £50k, and denying an increase of £10 a week to someone in the poorest decile of society at a time when inflation is hovering around 10% and, for essentials such as food and energy, around 25%. But your view on the matter looks to be crystal clear, going by your posts.

 

[lammergeier]

So, assuming no payrise is offered, how do you resolve the situation?

If passenger figures are down on 2019, surely (proportional) cuts are entirely rational? If you are fighting any and all cuts for an industry that has shrunk, you’re unlikely to win much wider sympathy.

We have already had cuts. Any further cuts cannot seriously be justified on passenger numbers grounds when we are leaving people behind on a regular basis and services are full and standing routinely. I think the recent ORR stats are suggesting passenger numbers are over 90% of pre-covid, and we certainly aren't running 90% of services.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

NHS staff are, generally, highly skilled workers who have the potential to relocate, should they wish, to other countries which offer better employment terms to their healthcare workers. These are not comparable industries.

This was the point I was (respectfully) trying to make. It's like apples and oranges.
The NHS is not something that anyone can afford to risk causing significant damage to.

 

[Towers]

I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't more strike calls but there is a work to rule and/or ban on overtime or rest day working across NR and TOCs.

That would cause chaos on a day basis; it would also highlight understaffing in certain areas.

I would imagine that's a high risk strategy; plenty of rail staff work overtime routinely and in the current climate losing that is a much bigger ask than occasional strike days which can be recovered by working overtime. Can't see that lasting for the next six months.

 

[the sniper]

NHS staff are, generally, highly skilled workers who have the potential to relocate, should they wish, to other countries which offer better employment terms to their healthcare workers. These are not comparable industries.

Is this an argument for or against them striking or just a backhanded opportunity to say railway workers are low skilled...?

Nothing makes me support striking more than reading this forum.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think the recent ORR stats are suggesting passenger numbers are over 90% of pre-covid, and we certainly aren't running 90% of services.

Passenger numbers are in the 80s%, and certainly not over 90% compared to Pre covid. The service level meanwhile is over 90% on weekdays (and going up by a couple of % in 3 weeks), whilst at weekends the service level is as near as makes no difference at Pre covid levels. the % of capacity is higher than this, as we run, on average, longer trains now than Pre Covid.

These are national figures; there are some ups and downs locally.

 

[Iskra]

We have already had cuts. Any further cuts cannot seriously be justified on passenger numbers grounds when we are leaving people behind on a regular basis and services are full and standing routinely. I think the recent ORR stats are suggesting passenger numbers are over 90% of pre-covid, and we certainly aren't running 90% of services.

There’s a lot to pick out of this really, I’m not sure it’s all as simple as just blaming ‘cuts’ for all the railways current woes.

I’d argue that we are still running a pre-Covid service in a Post-Covid world, which is no longer fit for purpose or passenger demand.

Weekends are disrupted disproportionately. Industrial relations issues are accentuating this. But ultimately, the cause is outdated contracts that aren’t fit for purpose.

The ‘service cuts’ have not been well-managed so certain areas have unfortunately received a disproportionate impact on demand vs capacity matching.

Covid created a training back log which is draining resources further in order to try fix it, but choking the railway in the short term while providing little tangible improvement at this point.

 

[Chingy]

Freightliner have AIUI accepted circa 7% no strings. That’s the kind of offer that would settle the dispute industry wide. Still a cut in real terms, of course.

Freightliner have formally proposed an offer of 7.76% across all driving grades, however no offer has been formally accepted yet, nor will it until mid January 2023, once a postal referendum has been concluded. ASLEF members at FL might yet reject the offer, although it has been recommended for acceptance.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Freightliner have formally proposed an offer of 7.76% across all driving grades, however no offer has been formally accepted yet, nor will it until mid January 2023, once a postal referendum has been concluded. ASLEF members at FL might yet reject the offer, although it has been recommended for acceptance.

Am I right in thinking ASLEF tend to be more reasonable/willing to compromise than RMT these days?

 

[the sniper]

Am I right in thinking ASLEF tend to be more reasonable/willing to compromise than RMT these days?

Neither are 'reasonable'/stupid enough to see 2% as being a sensible offer, if that's what you mean.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Passenger numbers are in the 80s%, and certainly not over 90% compared to Pre covid. The service level meanwhile is over 90% on weekdays (and going up by a couple of % in 3 weeks), whilst at weekends the service level is as near as makes no difference at Pre covid levels. the % of capacity is higher than this, as we run, on average, longer trains now than Pre Covid.

These are national figures; there are some ups and downs locally.

Sorry I find it hard to believe that nationally we are running over 90% of services. Given that a number of operators are running vastly reduced services, Avanti, Northern, TPE, WMR, Chiltern, XC have routes barely over 50% of pre-Covid levels. This would seem to imply some operators are running almost 100%
Or are the figures massively skewed by some TfL routes - in particular that new one?

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I think strikes on 23-24 Dec are guaranteed now, plus probably 31 Dec-1 Jan. If travelling and not owning a car, now would be the time to book coach travel.

Cheaper as well, no doubt National Express and Megabus will be very popular and I bet some coaches will be hired in!

 

[D365]

The amount of “if the NHS can strike why shouldn’t we,” suggests some believe the two are remotely comparable?

Who is saying this?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2022 ==

Neither are 'reasonable'/stupid enough to see 2% as being a sensible offer, if that's what you mean.

Wow, to think somebody was being serious when they proposed this.

 

[Bevan Price]

We have already had cuts. Any further cuts cannot seriously be justified on passenger numbers grounds when we are leaving people behind on a regular basis and services are full and standing routinely. I think the recent ORR stats are suggesting passenger numbers are over 90% of pre-covid, and we certainly aren't running 90% of services.

You need to realise that the Treasury, and its puppet, DfT, care s*d all about overcrowding, cancellations and people "left behind", especially away from London. It would take several prominent tory MPs to create a big fuss before they slightly eased that policy.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Am I right in thinking ASLEF tend to be more reasonable/willing to compromise than RMT these days?

Both are about the same in terms of reasonableness. The RMT love their rhetoric but they're actually pretty reasonable negotiators.

As in any negotiation the union high-ball and the employer low-ball. What's different this time is the government seem pretty determined to stick to their low-ball.

We've just accepted 6% in the civil service here, and an offer in that ballpark would show a genuine intent to negotiate.

FWIW I think this lot are delivering a pub covers band version of Thatcherism, and see "sticking it to the union" as an intrinsic part of that.

 

[matthewjohnson]

I saw the dreaded stock photo of someone looking at a departure board was back on the BBC front page and my heart sank.