Scotrail HSTs - 4-5 years in

[cf111]

And you want Voyagers or Meridians? A tad ironic!

The Voyagers are four cars long and the Meridians are five/seven carriages long so the 222s would be an improvement as even the shortest set would equal one of the longest HSTs.

I have never seen an issue with luggage storage on the 222s. The Voyagers, yes, but not nearly as often as the 170s which aren't laid out as intercity trains as regards luggage. The door placement on them I can live with .

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd kill for the 222 fleet, or even the 220s but I've no idea what their lease situation is like. I genuinely quite like the Voyagers in general, which isn't a popular opinion I know but they'd be great in Scotland.

They'd be acceptable for 5-10 years while a proper replacement is commissioned if the interiors were sorted out. They don't have to be high density - Coach D on Avanti sets shows how nice they can be.

 

[BRX]

The introduction of the HST for ScotRail has to be the contender for the worst introduction of a train anywhere in the UK ever, with the exception of the APT I’d guess. Transport Scotland should be kept well away from the running of the railway if the utter incompetence and downright ignorance they’ve displayed throughout this project is anything to go by. The numerous occasions they’ve failed to listen to the well placed advice of ScotRail management, delivered in entirely good faith, not for the exact issue they were warned against to come to fruition, is cringeworthy. The only question is whether this behaviour is down to TS themselves and their interpretation of their brief from the Scottish Government, or if the government themselves have a direct hand.

This is before we get to the elephant in the room. As things stand, ASLEF in Scotland have stated that they will instruct drivers not to drive these machines after the third anniversary of Carmont. It seems a bit of a surprise to learn that a contract is being put to tender of WSP given that they are unlikely to be in service for another autumn period. It sounds like there may be some brinkmanship at play here - ScotRail really need to look into another fleet if they don’t want to end up with an emergency timetable next year. Another considerable expense in an already incredibly expensive failure. Next time ScotRail talk about passenger numbers and subsidies when responding to demands they reintroduce services, remember the money thrown at this.

Do any ASLEF drivers work HSTs for GWR or crosscountry or any of the other operators that use HSTs? If the scotrail ones are unsafe then surely the others are too.

 

[43096]

I wonder what would be a cheaper move for ScotRail - pay for modifications to WSP, or hire in 10 class 170 or 158 units every autumn to cover for the inevitable shortages.

Where are you hiring those units in from?

 

[Ex-controller]

Do any ASLEF drivers work HSTs for GWR or crosscountry or any of the other operators that use HSTs? If the scotrail ones are unsafe then surely the others are too.

Yes and I’d presume yes. But as far as I know the deadline has only been issued to ScotRail.

 

[northernbelle]

It was clear to some of us from the outset that HSTs were not the best answer to ScotRail's requirements. I can still remember, when the order was announced, the scepticism of many an experience railway manager.

An order of new DMUs or bi-mode MUs would have long been in full service by now, been more reliable, considerably cheaper to operate and would have had considerable life left in them if/when they were replaced by something longer-term. What we have now is a legacy of life-expired trains with no quick or easy replacement looking likely.

Quite apart from Scotrail's reliance on rebuilding knackered rolling stock (which has been proven to have taken years longer than intended with limited extra lifespan as a result), the unholy rush to get them replaced by IETs on Great Western and packed off to Scotland certainly created a lot of pressure in GW land.

In terms of the future, the only sensible rolling stock becoming available any time soon would appear to be the TfW 158s, East Mids 222s or Avanti 221s but I know a number of TOCs are vying to lay their paws on all three to help standardise their own fleets and reduce costs.

 

[BRX]

I know this might just prompt the repetition of many arguments that have already been had many times over... Perhaps we can keep this thread focused on the situation now rather than discussions about whether the HST project should have happened in the first place.

Just quoting my first post...

 

[hexagon789]

Just quoting my first post...

Will update on today's actual situation as regards availability tomorrow.

Kudos for trying to keep the thread on point, but I think it was bound to slide into the old 'should we have had HSTs to begin with' story.

That's what closed the original ScotRail HST thread!

Anyway, if the thread can remain open purely for current updates, I'm happy to continue posting availability and failure figures plus any other relevant updates.

 

[BRX]

Will update on today's actual situation as regards availability tomorrow.

Kudos for trying to keep the thread on point, but I think it was bound to slide into the old 'should we have had HSTs to begin with' story.

That's what closed the original ScotRail HST thread!

Anyway, if the thread can remain open purely for current updates, I'm happy to continue posting availability and failure figures plus any other relevant updates.

Thanks - please do!

 

[irish_rail]

Do any ASLEF drivers work HSTs for GWR or crosscountry or any of the other operators that use HSTs? If the scotrail ones are unsafe then surely the others are too.

GWR drivers have more sense it seems! Give me a HST cab over a sprinter in a collision any day!

 

[Bletchleyite]

GWR drivers have more sense it seems! Give me a HST cab over a sprinter in a collision any day!

It's not really HST vs. Sprinter, though, any long term replacement is likely to be brand new or much more recent. It's HST vs 222, or vs. 80x, or 175, or vs. 68/Mk5a DBSO, or whatever.

 

[Bikeman78]

It's not really HST vs. Sprinter, though, any long term replacement is likely to be brand new or much more recent. It's HST vs 222, or vs. 80x, or 175, or vs. 68/Mk5a DBSO, or whatever.

If the HSTs go in the bin next August, then it will be 158s or 170s that replace them. I don't really understand ASLEF's position. If they are concerned about HSTs then it should apply nationwide. The events at Carmont could have happened anywhere. For that matter, it could have involved any type of train. The chances of a similar incident affecting an HST before the proposed withdrawal date of 2030ish are tiny.

 

[MattRat]

I think that ScotRail needs to face the reality that the HST programme has been a total disaster and start to find a replacement pronto.
The main issue is the power cars. They keep failing, cost a fortune to maintain, lack of shore supply means that engines are kept running 24hrs a day. The fact that ScotRail opted for the cheapest 'bronze' maintenance package from MTU means that they are not allowed to shut both engines down as this will result in a cold start which is forbidden, speaks volumes about Transport Scotland and their cost cutting.
ScotRail needs get bi mode locomotives like the 69 and DVTs. Convert the mk3s or get some mk4s.
The HST cannot go on for another 6 years.

I think they'll double down and scrape up any extra HSTs they can, likely starting with XC when the extra Voyagers arrive.

 

[Mzzzs]

I don't see how Scotrail saw a long-term future with hst over 5 years maybe 10 at a push.
looks like they were thinking short term, not long term.
Loco-hauled stock would have much better when the line is electrified just replace the loco from diesel to electric.

 

[scotraildriver]

In defence, as a driver of Scotrail HSTs, I think engineering have done a decent job. The power cars in MUCH better condition than when they arrived, all having been internally repainted, lots of parts replaced, data alchemist monitoring installed and from my own point of view never had a failure. However the work done by Wabtec was of poor quality and continues to cause issues ( substandard corrosion repairs, faulty inverters, leaking roofs). Logistically it wasn't properly thought through. Scotrail's wheel lathe is on the wrong side of the wrong city, lack of shore supplies and depots which were all set up to service 3 or 6 car DMU formations , and removing the WSP upgrade was a poor political decision. But we are where we are and it certainly doesn't look like they are going anywhere soon. Looking forward the catering equipment is being recommissioned and 15 5 car sets are diagrammed from December. Here's hoping.

 

[43096]

In defence, as a driver of Scotrail HSTs, I think engineering have done a decent job. The power cars in MUCH better condition than when they arrived, all having been internally repainted, lots of parts replaced, data alchemist monitoring installed and from my own point of view never had a failure.

The data alchemist mod was started by GWR before they transferred.

 

[PG]

Looking forward the catering equipment is being recommissioned and 15 5 car sets are diagrammed from December. Here's hoping.

Thanks for the update from the coal face, much appreciated.

 

[class377fcc12]

GWR drivers have more sense it seems! Give me a HST cab over a sprinter in a collision any day!

Really? At least a Sprinter cab has some metal in it above the solebar...

 

[Cowley]

From here on rather than rehashing the old arguments about whether Scotrail should have taken the HSTs on in the first place, let’s stick to the subject of how things are going now please.

Thanks everyone

 

[hexagon789]

Availability update:

Thurs 17th - 9, weather issues/flooding
Fri 18th - 8, withdrawn early due to weather/flooding
Sat 19th - 6 plus 1 ECS, weather issues/flooding

The prevailing weather conditions in the coming days, likely means only a couple of sets will be out for a period.

Updated Mon 21st.

 

[BRX]

Must have struck lucky as I'm on one from inverness to Edinburgh just now.

This time instead of 100% of the vestibule doors stuck open, it's more like 50%.

No catering again (have noticed a couple of people peering through the windows into the mini buffet section to see if there's any action).

But it's comfortably busy and the ambience (save for the awful lighting) is good. I'll take this over a DMU any day.

 

[hexagon789]

Must have struck lucky as I'm on one from inverness to Edinburgh just now.

This time instead of 100% of the vestibule doors stuck open, it's more like 50%.

No catering again (have noticed a couple of people peering through the windows into the mini buffet section to see if there's any action).

But it's comfortably busy and the ambience (save for the awful lighting) is good. I'll take this over a DMU any day.

The only I7C train booked with catering on a Sunday is the 1033 Aberdeen-Glasgow QS.

 

[Wyrleybart]

It appears Scotrail is not taking the ASLEF threat seriously. There are some mods which can be done to HSTs to make them safer, such as changes to the cab fitment and the big one is fitting bogie retention straps so they don’t go flying off.

I wonder how many times an ASLEF driver has been injured or inconvenienced by the lack of bogie straps on a HST power car. Obviously more than zero, to raise the argument, but if you pitch a 67 ton power car off the side of a bridge, the difference between bogie straps and none is somewhat irrelevant I would say.

Overall though Scotrail did a deal with Angel Trains to accept 26 sets, around half of which were supposed to be five cars. Sadly Carmont reduced that to 25 sets, but if the 5th car trailers have been parked up all summer 2022, why should summer 2023 be any different ? They will be a year mouldier and wheels bogies journals brakes etc as well as electrics, electrics, HVAC and doors will not have been used regularly.

I am impressed with the Scottish electrification ethic, but existing fleets !!!! Oh dear

 

[XAM2175]

I can't help but be disappointed about the whole HST debacle here. I felt very optimistic when they were first announced in 2014 that they would
transform the Intercity experience here in Scotland. It's a shame that the project hasn't lived up to expectations.

I felt similar to you then and do so now. It's very obvious that there have been many mistakes and silly choices made in delivering the project, and that's leaving aside the questionable wisdom of going for them in the first place. At the same time though, I still have a hint of begrudging admiration for the programme's intent - precisely because it did offer the potential of delivering a transformed experience.

As it happens I made a Glasgow-Perth return journey last week, by HST both ways. Yes, the lighting is far too cold and horrifically bright, and some of the vestibule doors are stuck open, and the non-PRM lavs are microscopic, and not specifying upgraded WSP was stupid... but the set was clean and well-presented, and the standard-class seats are entirely decent, and there was space aplenty for the considerable number of passengers aboard and the ambience was preferable to that of a 158 or 170 by no small amount.

I know they're never going to be anywhere near perfect, and I wholeheartedly approve of plans to find a proper long-term successor, but I can't agree with the notion that the project should be entirely abandoned at this point - with all the attendant overheads - in favour of some other fleet that would in effect be just another short-term successor.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I can't help but be disappointed about the whole HST debacle here. I felt very optimistic when they were first announced in 2014 that they would transform the Intercity experience here in Scotland. It's a shame that the project hasn't lived up to expectations.

You look at an Azuma parked next to a faded 43 power car at Edinburgh and it's laughable when you consider HSTs were introduced to the routes at roughly the same time 800s came into use, advertised as the same sort of Intercity product. While an upgrade from 170s, they are crappy and embarrassing compared to brand new trains that GWR, LNER, TPE, Hull Trains, GA and Lumo - and soon EMR & Avanti - all use for journeys of similar (or generally shorter in GA and Hull Trains' case) lengths (I don't care what you think of Fainsa Sophias by the way ), and even the substantially older 390, 180, 22x, etc used by Avanti, XC, EMR and GC make the HSTs look dated. And these were marketed by Abellio as something utterly revolutionary.

Scotland deserves better, frankly.

 

[BRX]

What they look like on the outside is not really what matters.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

What they look like on the outside is not really what matters.

That's not even the start of it.

 

[BRX]

Sort out the lighting and vestibule doors and they easily provide a superior passenger environment than a Pendolino, an Azuma with current seating layout or any long distance DMU.

 

[scotraildriver]

Sort out the lighting and vestibule doors and they easily provide a superior passenger environment than a Pendolino, an Azuma with current seating layout or any long distance DMU.

The vestibule doors are undergoing modification and will work properly soon. The new design fitted by Wabtec at refurbishment, much like everything else, didn't work properly. But Scotrail engineering have manufactured a solution and it's currently being implemented . The lights won't be changed, but a fair few sets have standard class vehicles that were converted from 1st class in a previous life, and retain the 1st class dimmable lighting. Seek them out, they're quite obvious.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The vestibule doors are undergoing modification and will work properly soon. The new design fitted by Wabtec at refurbishment, much like everything else, didn't work properly. But Scotrail engineering have manufactured a solution and it's currently being implemented . The lights won't be changed, but a fair few sets have standard class vehicles that were converted from 1st class in a previous life, and retain the 1st class dimmable lighting. Seek them out, they're quite obvious.

It's a shame ScotRail won't entertain just swapping the tubes for LED tubes in a less nasty colour temperature given the huge sums spent on the rest of it.