Standing on buses on a route usually operated by coaches

[roadierway77]

Apologies for the rather long winded title, this question is rather hard to describe.

I travel regularly between Fife and Edinburgh and standing is not allowed on the coaches that operate these routes (Plaxton Panther LEs and Plaxton Elites). However, what are the exact regulations on standing passengers when regular buses (i.e. non-coaches) operate on these routes?

It's not too uncommon to see single or double deckers on routes such as the X55 from Dunfermline to Edinburgh, but I'm confused about whether standing is allowed or not on these buses. I've seen both single and double decker buses with standing passengers on this route, such as during one of the rail strikes last month when I saw a couple of E400s packed to the brim, yet today my journey from Edinburgh to Dunfermline was using a E200MMC and the driver wasn't allowing passengers to stand. Buses on the X55 can get very fast on the A90 and Forth Road Bridge but as I've said I've seen passengers standing on these buses before and I'm sure Lothian Country's 43 allows standing on the A90 section. Was today on the X55 a case of the driver being wrong, or is it simply at the driver's discretion whether standing is allowed or not?

 

[Flying Snail]

It is down to the occupancy rating of the individual vehicle, if it is rated for X number of standees then the route it is on is irrelevant.

BTW it is possible for coaches to have standees, while not common I have seen and driven some (Plaxton primas in the latter), the only obvious difference was hand grabs on the luggage rack.

 

[Stan Drews]

Every bus and coach has a maximum seating/standing capacity, which must be displayed prominently inside the vehicle. The authorised capacity is set as part of the build process, and is nothing to do with the individual operator.

The vast majority of coaches do not permit standing passengers, although back in the day of the standard Stagecoach spec Volvo B10M/Plaxton Interurban they were authorised for 8 standing.

 

[Flying Snail]

I can understand that driver's reluctance. Personally speaking I didn't like having standees in general, most of the routes I drove had long sections of fast straight roads. People would tend to relax their grip after long periods of not needing to hold tight and even a gentle braking had the potential to knock someone over.

 

[mb88]

Funny you should ask this as I noticed myself the other day an E200 MMC on one of the Fife services displaying ‘Bus Full’ with no standing passengers. I could be wrong, but isn’t it due to them going on a motorway? I’m sure I was told way back when I was going through my PCV training that standing passengers are not allowed on a motorway. This would explain why they are allowed on the 43 as it turns off for Dalmeny before the A90 becomes the M90.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Funny you should ask this as I noticed myself the other day an E200 MMC on one of the Fife services displaying ‘Bus Full’ with no standing passengers. I could be wrong, but isn’t it due to them going on a motorway? I’m sure I was told way back when I was going through my PCV training that standing passengers are not allowed on a motorway. This would explain why they are allowed on the 43 as it turns off for Dalmeny before the A90 becomes the M90.

I suspect your PCV trainer was giving a recommendation rather than stating a law.
By the way, the A90 stays just that (not transitioning to M90) beyond Dolphington , where the 43 turns off. Also, Stagecoach and First ran the 40/A and X4 along this section with standees. Pretty sure the X55 doesn't run on any motorway in either Edinburgh or Fife.
The 747 runs on motorway and I can't imagine standing being prohibited on that service.

 

[roadierway77]

Thanks for the replies. I can't remember how many standing passengers an E200MMC can hold but it can certainly hold a few.

Pretty sure the X55 doesn't run on any motorway in either Edinburgh or Fife.
The 747 runs on motorway and I can't imagine standing being prohibited on that service.

The X55 does run on the M90 for a very short section between Ferrytoll and Admiralty Road, Rosyth, which could explain why standing passengers are not allowed, but again during the rail strikes passengers were standing on this section and yes, as far as I'm aware standing is permitted on the 747 which travels on the M90 for most of its route.

I can understand that driver's reluctance. Personally speaking I didn't like having standees in general, most of the routes I drove had long sections of fast straight roads. People would tend to relax their grip after long periods of not needing to hold tight and even a gentle braking had the potential to knock someone over.

Oh yes definitely, I certainly wouldn't like to stand with how aggressive the braking and acceleration can be on the X55, I imagine there may be some health and safety-related arguments against standing passengers on a route like the X55. However if the bus can take standing passengers, and runs full leaving passengers behind, like my bus today, it seems a little odd to forbid standing, though I can also understand why. I was lucky that one person got off at the stop I wanted on at!

 

[GusB]

It is down to the occupancy rating of the individual vehicle, if it is rated for X number of standees then the route it is on is irrelevant.

BTW it is possible for coaches to have standees, while not common I have seen and driven some (Plaxton primas in the latter), the only obvious difference was hand grabs on the luggage rack.

It was certainly possible when Stagecoach introduced the B10M/Plaxton Premier Interurban combination. I think the capacity signs indicated that 8 standees were permitted.

(I'm having to pause for a moment to digest the fact that it was 30-odd years ago now!)

 

[computerSaysNo]

What's the thinking with running E200MMCs on the likes of the X55 rather than a coach?

 

[bussnapperwm]

Funny you should ask this as I noticed myself the other day an E200 MMC on one of the Fife services displaying ‘Bus Full’ with no standing passengers. I could be wrong, but isn’t it due to them going on a motorway? I’m sure I was told way back when I was going through my PCV training that standing passengers are not allowed on a motorway. This would explain why they are allowed on the 43 as it turns off for Dalmeny before the A90 becomes the M90.

If thats the case then Arriva and National Express West Midlands must be doing things majorly wrong on their Birmingham to Sutton Coldfield express routes (the ones that run via the A38(M)) as they used to be (pre COVID) full and standing most trips.

That's not the only route I've been on that's had standees on the motorway... the X1A in Glasgow when I caught it once was full and standing on a Enviro300.

 

[GusB]

Before we all get too excited, here's what gov.uk says:

Urban buses on motorways

www.gov.uk

General requirements
Buses that have been approved or certified to carry standing passengers in accordance with national or European construction rules are not restricted on which roads they can use.

Additionally, the Motorway Traffic (England and Wales) Regulations 1982(SI 1982 No. 1163) and The Motorways Traffic (Scotland) Regulations 1995 (SI 1995 No.2507) (S.183) permit buses to use motorways but they are not allowed to stop and pick up passengers on such roads.

Since 1 October 2001, seat belts have been required to be installed in all new buses other than those specifically designed for urban use with standing passengers. An exemption is permitted for these vehicles because they are typically used for short journeys, in both time and distance, undertaken at moderate speeds on urban routes. Although we are aware that vehicles equipped with seat belts are used by some operators for urban fare paying services, ultimately, it is for the operator to choose the type of vehicle used to provide a service.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It was certainly possible when Stagecoach introduced the B10M/Plaxton Premier Interurban combination. I think the capacity signs indicated that 8 standees were permitted.

The coaches Arriva used on the 685 (some Volvo/Plaxton combination, I forget the model) were also rated for 8 standees.

Coaches can be rated for standees, and if they are then people can stand. If they're not, they can't.

And as you point out, there is no law saying people can't stand on a motorway, although sensible drivers won't allow standing if the journey involves a lot of high-speed running (e.g. most drivers won't allow standing on the Boro-Newcastle X10, even though the A19 isn't a motorway).

 

[Geordie driver]

Buses have limiters fitted. Unless you count 62 mph as "very fast"?

They can barely keep up with the flow on 70mph roads.

I have driven many full standing loads on dual carriageways at 60 mph.

Buses remain so safe due to the high standards of driving, hence why we don't need seatbelts on local services.

You are safer on the bus without a seat belt than you are with the average car driver with a seat belt.

It wouldn't occur to me to refuse a passenger standing if it was lawful.

Not sure the company would be too happy with it either.

 

[LiviCrazy]

Back when First in West Lothian had the coaches for the X15/X14 (Glasgow motorway services) they occasionally ventured onto other routes (they were never good at vehicle allocation). Can remember frequently having to stand on the coaches holding the overhead luggage racks on the 27/28 (West Lothian to Edinburgh services mainly along A roads and through towns).

 

[318266]

The coaches Arriva used on the 685 (some Volvo/Plaxton combination, I forget the model) were also rated for 8 standees.

Were they not the DAF Plaxton Primas?

 

[roadierway77]

Buses have limiters fitted. Unless you count 62 mph as "very fast"?

I wouldn't consider 62 very fast for a coach but relatively, 60mph is fast for the E200MMCs in Fife - except for the airport-spec vehicles that operate services to Edinburgh Airport, they will most often not get over 40mph, especially the ones based at Dunfermline depot which will usually operate urban routes or semi-rural routes with low speed limits and/or a high density of towns/villages and thus don't really get a chance to get up to high speed.

I don't personally relish the idea of standing on a bus going 60mph but honestly I wouldn't care too much if I had to do it and I know it's safe, and with a route such as the X55, these stretches aren't very long. And I would certainly prefer standing on a bus than waiting another half an hour in the cold and rain, hoping that the next service isn't full!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The coaches Arriva used on the 685 (some Volvo/Plaxton combination, I forget the model) were also rated for 8 standees.

Coaches can be rated for standees, and if they are then people can stand. If they're not, they can't.

And as you point out, there is no law saying people can't stand on a motorway, although sensible drivers won't allow standing if the journey involves a lot of high-speed running (e.g. most drivers won't allow standing on the Boro-Newcastle X10, even though the A19 isn't a motorway).

This really should not be up to the driver, but rather company policy within the law, as inconsistency of approach causes issues when one driver allows it and the other doesn't, and the latter leaves people behind from the last bus.

Such policy should be clearly publicised.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

This really should not be up to the driver, but rather company policy within the law, as inconsistency of approach causes issues when one driver allows it and the other doesn't, and the latter leaves people behind from the last bus.

Such policy should be clearly publicised.

Driver should have discretion as at the end of the day he is the one that can end up in court

 

[overthewater]

Driver should have discretion as at the end of the day he is the one that can end up in court

if that is the case, the driver shouldn't be driving.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Driver should have discretion as at the end of the day he is the one that can end up in court

No law is broken by carrying standing passengers within the specification of the vehicle, thus no, he couldn't end up in court by so doing.

If sued after an accident, the company's third party insurance policy would cover any costs provided the driver had acted within its terms (which would be expressed as company policy), so not that either.

 

[PG]

if that is the case, the driver shouldn't be driving.

The standing capacity may allow X number of standees but if I, as a driver, can't fit anymore passengers on board without obstructing my view of the entrance ie they'd be standing on the platform then I would refuse boarding even if I have less than X standees. Otherwise were I to have an accident I'd potentially be in court and the prosecution would highlight that my vision was restricted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The standing capacity may allow X number of standees but if I, as a driver, can't fit anymore passengers on board without obstructing my view of the entrance ie they'd be standing on the platform then I would refuse boarding even if I have less than X standees. Otherwise were I to have an accident I'd potentially be in court and the prosecution would highlight that my vision was restricted.

Agreed. But that is rather different from carrying standees at all on a road where they are permitted and in a vehicle where they are permitted without obstructing your ability to drive.

 

[PG]

Agreed. But that is rather different from carrying standees at all on a road where they are permitted and in a vehicle where they are permitted without obstructing your ability to drive.

True. I was more pointing out that, on some buses, you'd struggle to actually fit the plated number of standees in the available floor space. I believe the calculation of the number of standees permitted is weight related.

 

[Bletchleyite]

True. I was more pointing out that, on some buses, you'd struggle to actually fit the plated number of standees in the available floor space. I believe the calculation of the number of standees permitted is weight related.

Agreed. These days the figure tends to be in excess of a crush load.

 

[Busaholic]

Before we all get too excited, here's what gov.uk says:

Urban buses on motorways

www.gov.uk

We have a situation where a bus (or coach) with maximum standees could be using a 'smart' motorway, breaks down and has no hard shoulder to retreat to, even if it could have done so, and gets ploughed into by an HGV. Sorry, I know it sounds unlucky/improbable but, Sod's Law says, like Grenfell, it will happen sometime. Of course, even without standing passengers, that would be a terrible incident, but I'd guarantee that the fact of standing passengers would be a huge focus afterwards, particularly in countries which would never countenance such dereliction of duty, imo.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We have a situation where a bus (or coach) with maximum standees could be using a 'smart' motorway, breaks down and has no hard shoulder to retreat to, even if it could have done so, and gets ploughed into by an HGV. Sorry, I know it sounds unlucky/improbable but, Sod's Law says, like Grenfell, it will happen sometime. Of course, even without standing passengers, that would be a terrible incident, but I'd guarantee that the fact of standing passengers would be a huge focus afterwards, particularly in countries which would never countenance such dereliction of duty, imo.

What are the rules on this in e.g. Germany?

I don't think standees are particularly relevant there, though. A double decker fully seated coach would contain more passengers and be slower to evacuate than a SWB Optare Solo with the full permitted standing load, and the wisdom on motorways is to evacuate. And as soon as you start evacuation people will be standing without belts on, so you've not got that in favour of the coach either.

 

[roadierway77]

It's an interesting debate because from what I can tell from the above posts, there doesn't seem to be any rules or regulations in the UK on a maximum speed for allowing standing passengers. Thus I can understand the reluctance of some drivers, but it does lead to conflicting attitudes where one driver might allow standing passengers on the motorway at 60mph and one may not.

With my example of Edinburgh - Fife buses, a partial solution would be higher frequencies and/or more capacious buses so that buses aren't running full, but 1, obviously the national driver shortage does not allow that currently and 2, Stagecoach don't really have enough vehicles to provide higher capacity buses on services such as the X55, and services already run every 15 minutes on this route in peak times. And of course it doesn't answer the question of if there should be a maximum allowed speed for standing passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's an interesting debate because from what I can tell from the above posts, there doesn't seem to be any rules or regulations in the UK on a maximum speed for allowing standing passengers. Thus I can understand the reluctance of some drivers, but it does lead to conflicting attitudes where one driver might allow standing passengers on the motorway at 60mph and one may not.

As I said above it strikes me that this is clearly a matter for company policy, to be determined collectively including the Unions. Letting drivers decide is a recipe for passenger conflict and thus e.g. assaults.

 

[overthewater]

The standing capacity may allow X number of standees but if I, as a driver, can't fit anymore passengers on board without obstructing my view of the entrance ie they'd be standing on the platform then I would refuse boarding even if I have less than X standees. Otherwise were I to have an accident I'd potentially be in court and the prosecution would highlight that my vision was restricted.

It was more to do with the fact if A driver took NO standing passengers.

 

[PG]

Further to the motorway diversion - - I found this explanation which may explain how the misapprehension over standing passengers came about.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/buses-on-motorways-with-standees.164099/post-3452983