Future of the Settle to Carlisle, Bentham and Ribble Valley lines

[InkyScrolls]

To me it has to be a direct train from Manchester or Preston to at least Ribblehead or it's worthless.

Preston to Ribblehead is probably more doable, or even Appleby, simply because it's less of a long journey.

 

[yorksrob]

Preston to Ribblehead is probably more doable, or even Appleby, simply because it's less of a long journey.

Is that where the bigger market is though !

 

[Bletchleyite]

Manchester to Settle (operationally Ribblehead) would work, if they're prepared to stump up for running the extra distance.

Given the bridge-gawper and walker's demand for Ribblehead, might as well serve it.

The demand for Dent and places north of that is going to be quite a bit less - the main walker demand is the Three Peaks, which you want to start at either Horton or Ribblehead.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2022 ==

Preston to Ribblehead is probably more doable, or even Appleby, simply because it's less of a long journey.

Ah yes, forgot Appleby, that's a nice day out.

I think we can be sure that the number of Manchester-Armathwaite, Lazonby or Langwathby tickets sold is going to be near 0 if it isn't actually 0 though, and Manchester-Carlisle can be done via the WCML. (One of the three is basically at the edge of Penrith, so anyone wanting it would go to Penrith).

 

[yorksrob]

Given the bridge-gawper and walker's demand for Ribblehead, might as well serve it.

The demand for Dent and places north of that is going to be quite a bit less - the main walker demand is the Three Peaks, which you want to start at either Horton or Ribblehead.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2022 ==



Ah yes, forgot Appleby, that's a nice day out.

I think we can be sure that the number of Manchester-Armathwaite, Lazonby or Langwathby tickets sold is going to be near 0 if it isn't actually 0 though, and Manchester-Carlisle can be done via the WCML.

Yes, agree. Lots do go to/from Ribblehead.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Given the bridge-gawper and walker's demand for Ribblehead, might as well serve it.

The demand for Dent and places north of that is going to be quite a bit less - the main walker demand is the Three Peaks, which you want to start at either Horton or Ribblehead.

Ah yes, forgot Appleby, that's a nice day out.

I think we can be sure that the number of Manchester-Armathwaite, Lazonby or Langwathby tickets sold is going to be near 0 if it isn't actually 0 though, and Manchester-Carlisle can be done via the WCML. (One of the three is basically at the edge of Penrith, so anyone wanting it would go to Penrith).

Some brief calculations I've done suggest that Preston to Ribblehead would take about 90 mins, and to Appleby would be around 130 mins. Doable for a day out and there's no point running north of there for the reasons you've given. Dent, Garsdale and Kirkby Stephen are all popular with walkers too.

 

[yorksrob]

Appleby is very easy for turnarounds, as disruption has shown.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Appleby is very easy for turnarounds, as disruption has shown.

Indeed; it can be done in as little as ten minutes, including booting all the passengers off.

 

[30907]

There is an hourly Manchester-Blackburn which could be extended (using one extra unit, so maximum 3 return workings to Ribblehead/Appleby). The middle trip would hardly be worth it in practice.
Assuming it was crewed throughout from NW depots (unlike the summer Dalesrail) it would be as economical as the present winter service.
This assumes staff relations have recovered and details like who crews it and where they take their break can be sorted (not sure it could be RHD!).

 

[InkyScrolls]

There is an hourly Manchester-Blackburn which could be extended (using one extra unit, so maximum 3 return workings to Ribblehead/Appleby). The middle trip would hardly be worth it in practice.
Assuming it was crewed throughout from NW depots (unlike the summer Dalesrail) it would be as economical as the present winter service.
This assumes staff relations have recovered and details like who crews it and where they take their break can be sorted (not sure it could be RHD!).

Approximate timings for such a service would be would be:-

Northbound

• (Ex. Rochdale xx17)
• Clitheroe d. xx55
• Hellifield d. xx18
• Long Preston d. xx21
• Settle d. xx27
• Horton-in-Ribblesdale d. xx34
• Ribblehead d. xx41
• Dent d. xx51
• Garsdale d. xx56
• Kirkby Stephen d. xx08
• Appleby a. xx22 (2 mins allowance)

Southbound

• Appleby d. xx09
• Kirkby Stephen d. xx21
• Garsdale d. xx33
• Dent d. xx45
• Ribblehead d. xx55
• Horton-in-Ribblesdale d. xx01
• Settle d. xx09
• Long Preston d. xx15
• Hellifield d. xx18
• Clitheroe a. xx41 (2 mins allowance before usual xx43 departure)
• (To Rochdale, arr. xx02)

Not quite long enough at Appleby for the crew to have an official break, given disposal, walking time, train prep, etc., even were there a union-approved location at the station.

 

[wilbers]

47 minutes between arriving and departing using those times. How long is a minimum official break? 30 minutes? leaving 17 minutes for the other things.

 

[InkyScrolls]

47 minutes between arriving and departing using those times. How long is a minimum official break? 30 minutes? leaving 17 minutes for the other things.

30 mins, plus ten mins (I believe - it may be something more precise, like eight) for walking to and from place of break, plus five mins to dispose the unit, five to prep the unit, and the five mins (at least) that it takes to take the unit into Appleby sidings and back out again - which adds up to approximately 55 mins as an absolute minimum.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd happily sit and eat my butties parked up at Ribblehead. It's lovely.

 

[wilbers]

so timings are quite close, but not quite there - so for that to be viable its either higher linespeed on part of the route, or skip at least 2 stations - out of those past Clitheroe the candidates are Long Preston, Dent, Garsdale.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2022 ==

I'd happily sit and eat my butties parked up at Ribblehead. It's lovely.

Oddly enough, the only time I went to Ribblehead and had a good walk there I went by car as I happened to be coming back from somewhere and it wasn't much of a detour to go there. All the times I've been through it on a train, I've carried on to somewhere else (Skipton and beyond on the way out, and Langwathby on the way back (apart from once when I went from Appleby instead which is only a little further to drive to than Langwathby)).

 

[InkyScrolls]

So timings are quite close, but not quite there - so for that to be viable its either higher linespeed on part of the route, or skip at least 2 stations - out of those past Clitheroe the candidates are Long Preston, Dent, Garsdale.

Even skipping all three wouldn't give you the time you need - you only gain about two mins per station.

 

[wilbers]

Even skipping all three wouldn't give you the time you need - you only gain about two mins per station.

two minutes in each direction though, so could set off from Appleby 4 or 6 minutes later?

 

[InkyScrolls]

two minutes in each direction though, so could set off from Appleby 4 or 6 minutes later?

Of course - I'd forgotten the return journey! In that case skipping all three would just about make it viable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2022 ==

With that in mind, the following timings would be doable:-

Northbound

• (Ex. Rochdale xx17)
• Clitheroe d. xx55
• Hellifield d. xx18
• Settle d. xx25
• Horton-in-Ribblesdale d. xx32
• Ribblehead d. xx39
• Kirkby Stephen d. xx02
• Appleby a. xx16 (2 mins allowance)

Southbound

• Appleby d. xx15
• Kirkby Stephen d. xx27
• Ribblehead d. xx57
• Horton-in-Ribblesdale d. xx03
• Settle d. xx11
• Hellifield d. xx18
• Clitheroe a. xx41 (2 mins allowance before usual xx43 departure)
• (To Rochdale, arr. xx02)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2022 ==

As it happens there is a Network Rail depot at Appleby complete with toilet and kitchen facilities, so if they were prepared to share then it wouldn't even be that difficult to provide an official train crew break location there.

 

[Bevan Price]

Surely Scotby would be far better potentially served on the Tyne Valley line anyway? More trains that could stop there (although the chances of it getting built are pretty tiny I'd wager)

With 2/3 buses per day (Mon.-Fri. only)** and one extra on TuThO,##, Scotby can barely support a bus service, never mind a station.

** - Reay's service 75

Rural and Town bus services

Local Bus and Shuttle Service in Cumbria

www.reays.co.uk

##- Telfords 680

Bus timetables

Bus-timetables, download and keep your copy handy.

telfordscoaches.com

 

[zwk500]

As it happens there is a Network Rail depot at Appleby complete with toilet and kitchen facilities, so if they were prepared to share then it wouldn't even be that difficult to provide an official train crew break location there.

Is that NR? I thought there was only a heritage organisation at Appleby.

 

[InkyScrolls]

With 2/3 buses per day (Mon.-Fri. only) and one extra on TuThu, Scotby can barely support a bus service, never mind a station.

Ah, I see. So we should close Wetheral station as well then. What about Cononley, should we close that? After all, the village only has one bus in each direction, weekdays only. Should we close every station that doesn't serve a village with lots of bus routes?

What if I live in Scotby and want to get to Newcastle? The 75 bus isn't going to help much.

Is that NR? I thought there was only a heritage organisation at Appleby.

There is a NR depot there as well.

 

[lachlan]

With 2/3 buses per day (Mon.-Fri. only)** and one extra on TuThO,##, Scotby can barely support a bus service, never mind a station.

** - Reay's service 75

Rural and Town bus services

Local Bus and Shuttle Service in Cumbria

www.reays.co.uk

##- Telfords 680

Bus timetables

Bus-timetables, download and keep your copy handy.

telfordscoaches.com

There is a half-hourly bus service that calls at stops on the dual carriageway north of the village, but no safe place to cross the road. A bridge or underpass may be just as beneficial as a new station.

 

[zwk500]

There is a half-hourly bus service that calls at stops on the dual carriageway north of the village, but no safe place to cross the road. A bridge or underpass may be just as beneficial as a new station.

Would sending the Bus down Park road not be a better solution? Gets it closer to the village and the road is much easier to cross.

Also, if you were building a station in Scotby, wouldn't it be better situated on the Tyne valley line? Not that it really justifies a station on either line.

 

[30907]

Approximate timings for such a service would be would be:-

Northbound

• (Ex. Rochdale xx17)
• Clitheroe d. xx55
• Hellifield d. xx18
• Long Preston d. xx21
• Settle d. xx27
• Horton-in-Ribblesdale d. xx34
• Ribblehead d. xx41
• Dent d. xx51
• Garsdale d. xx56
• Kirkby Stephen d. xx08
• Appleby a. xx22 (2 mins allowance)

Southbound

• Appleby d. xx09
• Kirkby Stephen d. xx21
• Garsdale d. xx33
• Dent d. xx45
• Ribblehead d. xx55
• Horton-in-Ribblesdale d. xx01
• Settle d. xx09
• Long Preston d. xx15
• Hellifield d. xx18
• Clitheroe a. xx21 (2 mins allowance before usual xx43 departure)
• (To Rochdale, arr. xx02)

Not quite long enough at Appleby for the crew to have an official break, given disposal, walking time, train prep, etc., even were there a union-approved location at the station.

The standard time ex CLH is xx23 not 43 so you would need either a 27min layover at Appleby without PNB (which means relieving at Blackburn, which I think would be allowable) or 87min with break.
So you could have a 3-hourly or 4-hourly cycle if pathing through Helliifield permitted (or 2-hourly turning back at Blea Moor).
That would still be generous provision for the day-trippers and walkers who would be 95% of the market.

What about Cononley, should we close that? After all, the village only has one bus in each direction, weekdays only.

Those with long memories will know that Cononley had a half-hourly bus service (the 666, which caused some amusement and the occasional half-serious question to the then Vicar) until a couple of years after electrification - the train took all the traffic except for those who wanted the Co-op at Crosshills. Not a good example.

 

[InkyScrolls]

The standard time ex CLH is xx23 not 43 so you would need either a 27min layover at Appleby without PNB (which means relieving at Blackburn, which I think would be allowable) or 87min with break.

Thank you - not sure where I got xx43 from. A 27 min layover at Appleby with a crew change at Blackburn would easily be doable within time constraints.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Permanent population of RHD is two - the owners of the pub. The station is there purely for the benefit of walkers (and the pub!).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Nov 2022 ==


I think my data was out of date for Appleby; it's larger than my figures suggested! Even so Scotby is easily among the larger settlements along the S&C.

Maybe so, but in terms of how much rail could attract traffic from Scotby, I'd say it's a miniscule percentage of what is, in any case, a small number.

Two miles is too far for most people to walk (these days at least);

Agreed. That's why, I suspect, by far the majority of journeys going outside Scotby are to the Carlisle area, by car. Note, area, not Carlisle Citadel station.

are you suggesting that any station within two miles of its prime destination is pointless? How far does it have to be to be worthy?

It depends on real travel patterns and service. If you are on a metro service, and in a high density population area, it might easily be worth having two stations at a mile apart, or even less. But the S&C is absolutely not a metro service. If it were (say three trains per hour) and IF there were platforms ready at Scotby, it might just make sense to reopen the station. But I'd suggest building a new station for the potential traffic from those of the 2,500 people regularly travelling to Carlisle - even if other locations justified a metro service - would still be economic madness.

As it stands, ie given the present service levels, how many people do you think would leave their car at home and walk to the reopened Scotby station (even on the Newcastle line) - say 10 mins - pay the fare, catch the train for the 5-7 min run into Carlisle - and then walk another 10 -15 minutes to where they want to go? I'd say not even 10%. Remember, there is a huge gap between the first train into Carlisle (at the relatively early hour of c 07.55) and the next train, the 07.47 ex Leeds. The morning service is barely attractive from K Stephen, Appleby etc, but it'd be FAR less attractive from Scotby.

Regarding passengers to Leeds, I'm not sure what your point is.

A passenger travelling from Appleby to Leeds (and beyond, eg Doncaster, Sheffield etc) will be paying a considerably higher fare than half a dozen going from Scotby to Carlisle, don't you think? (You are a conductor guard, aren't you?)

Passenger numbers are lower at the moment but not as low as you might expect (based on my own experience of working the line).

I'm very happy to hear your assessment on passenger numbers, given the current state of things.

As for the 0730 from Settle - it's unfortunate but a necessary consequence of the lack of ability for Carlisle crews and units to head south.

Yes, I understand. And it's good that an 07.20 RRB is provided. My point is, however, that Settle is by far the most important station on the line, and the key traffic is - from what I both assume and read on here - the morning commuter traffic in the Leeds direction. (I suppose some goes to Skipton-Keighley-Bradford too - you probably know far better than most about the breakdown.) So this is very precious traffic indeed when it comes to justifying the line's existence. (And why I advocate making any additional service on the line an 08.30 departure from Settle to Leeds - to plug that awful 2.5 hr gap.)

This is a section of the Midland Main Line we’re talking about though.

It really isn't, is it? It may have been built as such - and worked as such until c 1962 - but from then on the Midland route's weaknesses, ie speed restrictions versus the alternative WCML and ECML came into play big time - even accounting for electrification of the WCML. By 1967, nobody caught the Thames-Clyde from St Pancras to Glasgow except the odd rail enthusiast. (There may have been a few catch the sleeper - but that was when the slow schedule was an advantage to someone wanting kip.)

It is no different in nature to the section south of Kettering

No different? About as similar as chalk and blue moon cheese.

and should be treated as such. Leeds - Skipton - Carlisle - Glasgow traffic could make good use of the line without taking up capacity on the ECML or east-west routes.

Personally, I think more effort could be put into attracting Leeds - Glasgow traffic, especially if you could path some trains Nottingham - Sheffield - Leeds - Motherwell - Glasgow. Maybe four trains a day if 90 mph DMUs. But there is no way Leeds - Carlisle could or should be treated "the same way" as the MML south of Kettering.

To my pleasant surprise (as the forum seems to have missed this), they have the choice of an RRB to Long Preston at 0720 or an additional train which starts from Appleby at 0725 (off the first down).

I certainly missed it. Or rather, I see there is an RRB, but I still miss any 07.25 train on RTT trains.

There is an 07.27 on Saturdays - but that is normal, from Ribblehead, because the first up train off Carlisle is much later than on a weekday.

Are you sure you've not looked at a Saturday to find this mysterious 07.25?

 

[InkyScrolls]

To be sure, Scotby would provide limited traffic, but it's still by far the most likely to cover its own costs of any potential station on the line.

It would be quite easy to plug the morning gap from Settle with a departure at, say, 0656 from Carlisle, for which the path through to Leeds is available.

As it happens the 0824, 1340 (which could be 1324 if made a 'stopper'), 1618 and 1824 services ex Carlisle, plus the 0920, 1318, 1518 and 1819 departures ex Leeds interface very well with the hourly Northern services to/from Nottingham, so integrating them as through services would be comparatively simple.

 

[30907]

The 0725 (SX) Appleby-Leeds:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G90229/2022-11-16/detailed#allox_id=0
More-or-less in your 0830 timing!

 

[InkyScrolls]

The 0725 (SX) Appleby-Leeds:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G90229/2022-11-16/detailed#allox_id=0
More-or-less in your 0830 timing!

So it would seem! If that ran normally then the 1949 Leeds - Ribblehead could run through to Carlisle (a. 2230), providing the 'opposite' working for unit balancing.

 

[30907]

So it would seem! If that ran normally then the 1949 Leeds - Ribblehead could run through to Carlisle (a. 2230), providing the 'opposite' working for unit balancing.

But you've then taken a unit away from the Leeds end in the morning peak - so adding to the total requirement.
ATM it is provided for by removing the early Carlisle which arrives Leeds 0830-ish.

 

[Elecman]

I'd happily sit and eat my butties parked up at Ribblehead. It's lovely.

I often have!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I often have!

Jealous!