Future of the Settle to Carlisle, Bentham and Ribble Valley lines

[Bletchleyite]

An expanded Dales Rail service might work. But how many people would be comfortable being tied to a couple of trains if they were on a long walk for example.

The idea of the DalesRail timetable is that the arrival is quite early and the departure quite late to suit long day walks. Padding the time out in the pub or doing other touristy stuff is the way to go if you want a shorter one.

There used to be two DalesRail trains (a later departure from Preston and an earlier departure back, I seem to recall about an hour different) but that one loaded very lightly indeed - most people wanted the full day out, and much later isn't really practical either.

And don't forget, people working compressed hours with longer weekends, retirees, who seem to enjoy the line etc.

Not enough to fill trains and make it even vaguely economic. Just go via Leeds or Bentham, it's not like it's impossible to get there either way, it's just that direct DalesRail services add convenience.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2022 ==

Perhaps four in each direction per day, or roughly one every four hours.

That would be very close to portion working the whole S&C service - you'd not fill it, not anywhere near.

 

[InkyScrolls]

The idea of the DalesRail timetable is that the arrival is quite early and the departure quite late to suit long day walks. Padding the time out in the pub or doing other touristy stuff is the way to go if you want a shorter one.

There used to be two DalesRail trains (a later departure from Preston and an earlier departure back, I seem to recall about an hour different) but that one loaded very lightly indeed - most people wanted the full day out, and much later isn't really practical either.



Not enough to fill trains and make it even vaguely economic. Just go via Leeds or Bentham, it's not like it's impossible to get there either way, it's just that direct DalesRail services add convenience.

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That would be very close to portion working the whole S&C service - you'd not fill it, not anywhere near.

Via Bentham isn't even that much slower in the grand scheme of things.

 

[yorksrob]

The idea of the DalesRail timetable is that the arrival is quite early and the departure quite late to suit long day walks. Padding the time out in the pub is the way to go if you want a shorter one.



Not enough to fill trains and make it even vaguely economic. Just go via Leeds or Bentham, it's not like it's impossible to get there either way, it's just that direct DalesRail services add convenience.

On those days and times there are reasonable numbers of people from Leeds and West Yorkshire. Manc isn't much further in distance.

Also, whilst I'm not averse to the odd detour, both Bentham and Leeds are a very long way round.

Extending some Clitheroe services to connect through the day seems to be a decent compromise to me.

 

[InkyScrolls]

That would be very close to portion working the whole S&C service - you'd not fill it, not anywhere near.

Two in each direction then - early and mid morning northbound, mid and late afternoon southbound.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Two in each direction then - early and mid morning northbound, mid and late afternoon southbound.

When DalesRail operated that, the middle one (later northbound, earlier southbound) was very lightly loaded. People mostly want a full day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2022 ==

Extending some Clitheroe services to connect through the day seems to be a decent compromise to me.

Have you ever used the "winter DalesRail", aka the Lancashire Rambler to Hellifield?

Literally nobody uses it. It runs nearly empty. I'm amazed it's still a thing. People won't risk connections on very low frequency services made at stations where there's no staff to sort you a taxi if it goes wrong, and probably no taxi to have sorted either unless you get one to run from Blackburn or Leeds!

 

[InkyScrolls]

Extending some Clitheroe services to connect through the day seems to be a decent compromise to me.

The issue with that is that anything terminating from the south at Hellifield has to run through to Settle Jct. to reverse, which is inconvenient given the constraints of the current timetable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issue with that is that anything terminating from the south at Hellifield has to run through to Settle Jct. to reverse, which is inconvenient given the constraints of the current timetable.

It's also that nobody would use it. The Lancashire Rambler service demonstrates that. It has to run through to at least Ribblehead or it's pointless.

 

[InkyScrolls]

When DalesRail operated that, the middle one (later northbound, earlier southbound) was very lightly loaded. People mostly want a full day.

Have you ever used the "winter DalesRail", aka the Lancashire Rambler to Hellifield?

Literally nobody uses it. It runs nearly empty. I'm amazed it's still a thing. People won't risk connections on very low frequency services made at stations where there's no staff to sort you a taxi if it goes wrong, and probably no taxi to have sorted either unless you get one to run from Blackburn or Leeds!

I've just seen your message regarding the extra DalesRail above - interesting. Was it full and standing, the more heavily used service? If not then that's probably enough.

As for the winter service to Hellifield - it's almost always replaced by a (rather unnecessarily large!) bus.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2022 ==

It's also that nobody would use it. The Lancashire Rambler service demonstrates that. It has to run through to at least Ribblehead or it's pointless.

Which would actually be easier to path, especially given the proximity of Ribblehead to the southernmost loop on the line at Blea Moor (where there are already some booked reversals).

 

[yorksrob]

When DalesRail operated that, the middle one (later northbound, earlier southbound) was very lightly loaded. People mostly want a full day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2022 ==



Have you ever used the "winter DalesRail", aka the Lancashire Rambler to Hellifield?

Literally nobody uses it. It runs nearly empty. I'm amazed it's still a thing. People won't risk connections on very low frequency services made at stations where there's no staff to sort you a taxi if it goes wrong, and probably no taxi to have sorted either unless you get one to run from Blackburn or Leeds!

I've never done, but then again I'm based in Yorkshire so why would I when I have a frequent(ish) daily service.

From what I understand, it doesn't start in Manchester so must miss out a big chunk of the population, there's one trip a day, which is quite restrictive and it runs on Sunday, which isn't a lot of people's day "out".

You need something frequent(ish) to attract leisure business.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've just seen your message regarding the extra DalesRail above - interesting. Was it full and standing, the more heavily used service? If not then that's probably enough.

The early to late service was never full and standing, no. Generally speaking it was busy so far as regional services go, but not so busy that people didn't get their choice of seating with a few seats spare.

Also if I recall the main service ran as 4-car but the additional one as 2.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2022 ==

I've never done, but then again I'm based in Yorkshire so why would I when I have a frequent(ish) daily service.

From what I understand, it doesn't start in Manchester so must miss out a big chunk of the population, there's one trip a day, which is quite restrictive and it runs on Sunday, which isn't a lot of people's day "out".

You need something frequent(ish) to attract leisure business.

And direct, which means if it doesn't run onto the S&C it won't be well used. If people won't change at Blackburn, they definitely won't change at Hellifield!

 

[yorksrob]

It's also that nobody would use it. The Lancashire Rambler service demonstrates that. It has to run through to at least Ribblehead or it's pointless.

You'd have to give me more details as it doesn't come up when I google it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You'd have to give me more details as it doesn't come up when I google it.

Doesn't seem to have a website any more, but there are some winter Sunday Blackburn (I think) to Hellifield services in the timetable, often RRBs but when they run they're not busy either.

Edit: here they are: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...22-12-18/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

0812 Blackpool N-Hellifield
1526 Preston-Hellifield

1030 Hellifield-Preston
1734 Hellifield-Blackpool N

Pretty sure it was the latter one I used, no way would I have made Hellifield for 1030. It was one man, dog, bicycle, driver and guard. The weather wasn't great, but the weather never *is* great in the Dales in winter.

I suspect one issue is that the latter return is too *early* for a day hike - the regular DalesRail runs an hour earlier and doesn't involve a connection which loses more time.

 

[yorksrob]

Doesn't seem to have a website any more, but there are some winter Sunday Blackburn (I think) to Hellifield services in the timetable, often RRBs but when they run they're not busy either.

I would suggest that winter Sundays aren't the prime leisure opportunity and it sounds like two changes are required, rather than a single well timed connection at Hellifield. Like I say, frequent (at least by S&C standards) and reliable is what people will want.

 

[zwk500]

I've never done, but then again I'm based in Yorkshire so why would I when I have a frequent(ish) daily service.

From what I understand, it doesn't start in Manchester so must miss out a big chunk of the population, there's one trip a day, which is quite restrictive and it runs on Sunday, which isn't a lot of people's day "out".

You need something frequent(ish) to attract leisure business.

I think part of the issue is that the direct route between Manchester and Blackburn is via the single line through Darwen, which means operationally it's a huge performance risk to start running trains from too far away over it. The alternative route out to the WCML and then right at Farington Jn is then quite far out of the way for a train that will already take a long time.

 

[InkyScrolls]

The early to late service was never full and standing, no. Generally speaking it was busy so far as regional services go, but not so busy that people didn't get their choice of seating with a few seats spare.

Also if I recall the main service ran as 4-car but the additional one as 2.

And direct, which means if it doesn't run onto the S&C it won't be well used. If people won't change at Blackburn, they definitely won't change at Hellifield!

For current traffic then a single return trip would likely continue to be adequate, but to/from Manchester and on a Saturday would seem to make sounder business sense.

Having changed at Hellifield once when travelling from Barrow to Kirkby Stephen - I certainly wouldn't recommend, especially if the shop is shut!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2022 ==

You'd have to give me more details as it doesn't come up when I google it.

It's called 'DalesRail' now.

 

[yorksrob]

I think part of the issue is that the direct route between Manchester and Blackburn is via the single line through Darwen, which means operationally it's a huge performance risk to start running trains from too far away over it. The alternative route out to the WCML and then right at Farington Jn is then quite far out of the way for a train that will already take a long time.

Yes, I can see that would be an issue, but probably less than going further than Hellifield would be.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I think part of the issue is that the direct route between Manchester and Blackburn is via the single line through Darwen, which means operationally it's a huge performance risk to start running trains from too far away over it. The alternative route out to the WCML and then right at Farington Jn is then quite far out of the way for a train that will already take a long time.

Perhaps a well timed connection at Blackburn would be preferable, that being the case.

 

[yorksrob]

It's called 'DalesRail' now.

I understood that to be the one going from Blackpool up the S&C.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2022 ==

Perhaps a well timed connection at Blackburn would be preferable, that being the case.

But what to, if there isn't anything running between Hellifield and Clitheroe ?

 

[InkyScrolls]

I understood that to be the one going from Blackpool up the S&C.

But what to, if there isn't anything running between Hellifield and Clitheroe ?

My mistake - so it is.

I'm suggesting there be a service from Blackburn to the S&C, timed to connect with a service from Manchester, rather than a through service, to avoid the Darwen single line bottleneck.

 

[yorksrob]

My mistake - so it is.

I'm suggesting there be a service from Blackburn to the S&C, timed to connect with a service from Manchester, rather than a through service, to avoid the Darwen single line bottleneck.

That would presumably involve either a much longer diagram from Blackburn to Carlisle, but wouldn't get any more passengers than extending the Clitheroe to Hellifield as there would still be a change of trains.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Wouldn't changing at Blackburn be preferable to Hellifield, however?

 

[yorksrob]

Wouldn't changing at Blackburn be preferable to Hellifield, however?

If it's a reasonable connection (i.e not hours on end where you'd want to leave the station), Hellifield is as pleasant a place to wait. Nice countryside, interesting architecture, good cafe when open. Blackburn can seem a bit urban and windswept.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it's a reasonable connection (i.e not hours on end where you'd want to leave the station), Hellifield is as pleasant a place to wait. Nice countryside, interesting architecture, good cafe when open. Blackburn can seem a bit urban and windswept.

No staff to help when it goes wrong - a big offputter. Not even any taxis. If you're stuck you're totally stuck.

 

[InkyScrolls]

If your train from Hellifield is cancelled, however, it's rather a long wait till the next one! Blackburn is better for return services.

 

[yorksrob]

No staff to help when it goes wrong - a big offputter. Not even any taxis. If you're stuck you're totally stuck.

Perhaps an argument for keeping the cafe open during travelling hours.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps an argument for keeping the cafe open during travelling hours.

The cafe might know a taxi number but isn't going to get involved in doing the railway's job for it.

If you're about to argue for staffing a booking office at Hellifield, then we're really entering cloud cuckoo land.

 

[InkyScrolls]

The cafe might know a taxi number but isn't going to get involved in doing the railway's job for it.

If you're about to argue for staffing a booking office at Hellifield, then we're really entering cloud cuckoo land.

Despite the appearance of size Hellifield only creates approx. 32k journeys per (regular) year, on par with Gargrave.

 

[yorksrob]

The cafe might know a taxi number but isn't going to get involved in doing the railway's job for it.

If you're about to argue for staffing a booking office at Hellifield, then we're really entering cloud cuckoo land.

Well, the opposing argument seems to have gone from:

"There won't be enough people to change at Hellifield to justify extending the service" to:

"There will be enough people changing at Blackburn if they run a train from there and Carlisle" which seems somewhat optimistic.

Realistically, either people are prepared to change or not. Blackburn or Hellifield won't make that much difference.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Despite the appearance of size Hellifield only creates approx. 32k journeys per (regular) year, on par with Gargrave.

It's a bit of a mini Canfranc. Used to have operational importance, now doesn't. Serves a tiny (but pleasant) village.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2022 ==

Well, the opposing argument seems to have gone from:

"There won't be enough people to change at Hellifield to justify extending the service" to:

"There will be enough people changing at Blackburn if they run a train from there and Carlisle" which seems somewhat optimistic.

Realistically, either people are prepared to change or not. Blackburn or Hellifield won't make that much difference.

To me it has to be a direct train from Manchester or Preston to at least Ribblehead or it's worthless.

 

[yorksrob]

It's a bit of a mini Canfranc. Used to have operational importance, now doesn't. Serves a tiny (but pleasant) village.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2022 ==



To me it has to be a direct train from Manchester or Preston to at least Ribblehead or it's worthless.

Manchester to Settle (operationally Ribblehead) would work, if they're prepared to stump up for running the extra distance.