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Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

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najaB

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Mindless loyalty is one of the defining features of the party.
As @DynamicSpirit says, the principle of collective responsibility means that as a cabinet minister, even if you disagree with a policy or decision in private, you have to support it in public or resign your post.

This isn't specific to the Tories, nor to the UK.
 
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As @DynamicSpirit says, the principle of collective responsibility means that as a cabinet minister, even if you disagree with a policy or decision in private, you have to support it in public or resign your post.

However, if they had principles, they would keep quiet and not go round trumpeting that actually they had doubts. If you have doubts, you either resign or keep them to yourself, at least until you publish your diaries years later.
 

najaB

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However, if they had principles, they would keep quiet and not go round trumpeting that actually they had doubts. If you have doubts, you either resign or keep them to yourself, at least until you publish your diaries years later.
Criticised for blind loyalty to the party, and criticised for not toeing the line.

Some days you just can't win.
 

SuspectUsual

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Elsewhere, Raab has said he'll resign if the bullying allegations are substantiated....bye bye then ( not that this should be construed as in any way being pre-emptive of his guilt of course )

Of course the outcome depends a lot on who his boss chooses to do the investigation
 

nw1

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It's called collective responsibility. If you're serving as a Government minister, then you're broadly expected to support the Government in public, and voice any concerns or disagreements in private. It's not something that's unique to the Tories - Labour ministers are broadly expected to keep to the same standard when Labour is in Government.

And I'm not happy when Labour do it either, truth be told. I would like to see much more independence of thought in politics across the board. We might actually get decisions more acceptable to all if we did!

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Boris simply went on holiday...there again, Boris has never had any ethics anyway, so nobody could accuse him of such a breach.

Elsewhere, Raab has said he'll resign if the bullying allegations are substantiated....bye bye then ( not that this should be construed as in any way being pre-emptive of his guilt of course )

Bring on the Esher byelection.
 

brad465

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Esther McVey has said unless HS2 is also scrapped she will not support any tax rises in tomorrow's statement:


Former cabinet minister Esther McVey has fired a warning shot at the government over plans to increase taxes in Thursday's Autumn Statement.
The Tory MP told Deputy PM Dominic Raab putting taxes up was the "last thing" a Tory government should be doing.
And she said she would not support such a move while money was being spent on "unnecessary vanity project" HS2.
Mr Raab defended the government's plans as he stood in for Rishi Sunak at Prime Minister's Questions.
He told Ms McVey he understood her opposition to the HS2 high speed rail link, but urged her to wait for Chancellor Jeremy Hunt's statement on Thursday.

Mr Hunt is widely expected to announce £20bn in tax increases and £35bn in spending cuts, in a near total reversal of the measures set out in Liz Truss's mini-budget in September.
Mr Raab rejected calls by the SNP's deputy Westminster leader Kirsten Oswald to apologise to families for the "financial crisis" caused by the mini-budget and the "worst inflation in 42 years".
Labour's deputy leader Angela Rayner attacked Mr Raab over the UK's sluggish economic growth and repeated her party's call to scrap "non dom" tax status for wealthy individuals.
She accused the government of choosing to "protect corporate profits and not household income".
 
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Typhoon

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Now she has been shorn of departmental responsibilities, Lady (to be) Dorries is putting her time to good use:-
Former Culture Secretary Nadine Dorries is writing a book about the political downfall of former PM Boris Johnson.
....
Ms Dorries' literary agent told the BBC the book would be published next autumn and its working title was The Plot.
He said she had already begun writing it.
He described it as "a political whodunnit: murder on the Downing Street express".
Those "who want to know whose fingerprints are on the knife will have to buy the book", he added.

I am assuming it will be filed with the rest of her books, in the fiction section.

Who dunnit? Mr J with the Pork Pies in the Commons/ in interviews/ at the lectern/ on TV/ on the radio. No need to read the book.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63654000
 

Busaholic

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Now she has been shorn of departmental responsibilities, Lady (to be) Dorries is putting her time to good use:-


I am assuming it will be filed with the rest of her books, in the fiction section.

Who dunnit? Mr J with the Pork Pies in the Commons/ in interviews/ at the lectern/ on TV/ on the radio. No need to read the book.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63654000
Absolutely no need to buy or even glance at the 'book' as (a) it'll be serialised in the Mail, and (b) all the other papers and their websites will report on that, anything of the remotest interest being in the first part of the serialisation anyway.
 

nw1

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In another illustration of the issues of Tory Britain, I have just tried to book a dental appointment.

Apparently the NHS service has been removed from my practice in the past few months and you now have to go private. Not good. Apparently all the NHS dentists left, and, when I asked the receptionist whether they would likely recruit others, her words were something very similar to "it seems that government policy is to wind down NHS dentistry". And the receptionist is not some kind of radical left-winger, but someone who always comes across very professional.

Nice. It just sums up what the Conservative Party are all about and why I don't trust Sunak one iota. A small-state, make-us-pay-more-than-we-did-before-for-vital-services approach has always been the base Conservative ideology, to my eyes, ever since the poll tax in 1989 which was the moment I became properly politically aware. Brexit of course just made things worse, with the result that the current Conservative Party basically represents the polar opposite to my own political views.

But oh no, the problem, according to the press, is never the Tories and their penny-pinching, small-state, wannabe-Republican politics. It's always someone else.
 
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DustyBin

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In another illustration of the issues of Tory Britain, I have just tried to book a dental appointment.

Apparently the NHS service has been removed from my practice in the past few months and you now have to go private. Not good. Apparently all the NHS dentists left, and, when I asked the receptionist whether they would likely recruit others, her words were something very similar to "it seems that government policy is to wind down NHS dentistry". And the receptionist is not some kind of radical left-winger, but someone who always comes across very professional.

Nice. It just sums up what the Conservative Party are all about and why I don't trust Sunak one iota. A small-state, make-us-pay-more-than-we-did-before-for-vital-services approach has always been the base Conservative ideology, to my eyes, ever since the poll tax in 1989 which was the moment I became properly politically aware. Brexit of course just made things worse, with the result that the current Conservative Party basically represents the polar opposite to my own political views.

But oh no, the problem, according to the press, is never the Tories and their penny-pinching, small-state, wannabe-Republican politics. It's always someone else.

Even as a Tory voter and small C conservative I don't disagree with everything you say; I'm absolutely sick of them as well and I don't trust this lot one bit. It's not as simple as "evil Tories" though. We committed massive self-harm during the pandemic, yet Labour wanted restrictions to go even further. How would they deal with the current mess? They have some ideas (and some good ones IMHO), but they don't have a solution.

Many of the challenges we're facing are reflected around the world, and governments of all flavours are grappling with similar issues. It's true that in the UK we have our own issues following years of incompetent and self-serving leadership (I use the term loosely). However, this has been enabled by an equally useless opposition who've had, and continue to have, little to offer which is why I took no pleasure in the looney left takeover of the Labour party. It was bad for our democracy.

Can you tell I'm politically homeless?!
 

DynamicSpirit

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Even as a Tory voter and small C conservative I don't disagree with everything you say; I'm absolutely sick of them as well and I don't trust this lot one bit. It's not as simple as "evil Tories" though.

Indeed. Without wanting to minimize the problem (being unable to get treatment is an awful situation to face), this this Guardian article ("Half of Britain has no dentist') shows it's not an "evil Tories" problem: It describes much the same situation as today - except it's dated 2004, in the middle of the Labour Government. The shortage of NHS dentists has been here for years, although exacerbated recently particularly by Covid, and over a much longer period by - as far as I can tell - insufficient dentists being trained and more of those dentists choosing to go private. (There is of course also a small matter that, if more people took better care of their own teeth, there wouldn't be as much need for dental treatment in the first place!)

Unfortunately, any reasonable solution to the shortage of dentists is going to require a lot of money, and I don't see many suggestions for where that money should come from. (Personally, I'd be willing to pay a bit more tax to get problems like this fixed, but it seems the Tories get slated just as much when they try to raise taxes. So - what do you do?)
 

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I haven't watched the statement live, but apparently the Government benches have largely been silent during the Statement, which is not a good sign for them:


It wasn't a very Tory statement, to be honest. It was a bit more just-left-of-centre. I'd have expected it from e.g. Gordon Brown under Blair.

Tax the rich a bit*, windfall taxes, slightly restrained public spending, still build HS2, NPR and EWR is basically it.

* I'm slightly surprised the change to the 45% rate bands wasn't taken as an opportunity to remove the rather silly staircasing of the personal allowance, which means that within a certain range of incomes if you get a pay rise you get almost nothing to show for it. A lower 45% band but keeping the full personal allowance makes more sense. It seems odd to clobber a specific band of upper middle income for what is in effect a super-tax.
 

Typhoon

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Can you tell I'm politically homeless?!
I don't think you are alone by a long way. I am not a natural Conservative voter but have voted blue on occasions. The chances of that happening again diminished massively in September 2019 when Johnson booted out many of their MPs for whom politics is rather more than chanting three-word slogans and rolling out inaccurate stats or unachievable goals (target date - well past the next election). Unfortunately, having seen that the Conservative membership is perfectly capable of electing a clueless and incompetent idealogue once, I don't trust them not to do so again, and they have quite a number to choose from.
I couldn't stand Corbyn as Labour leader, mainly because of his supporters. I am prepared to vote Labour while Starmer is in charge mainly because I reckon he will try and steer a moderate path, I just wish I was more impressed with his front bench; but only if we have a moderate candidate. LibDems - for goodness sake try and find some candidates with fire in their belly, they are like the political equivalent of The Good Life.

An aside, were the members for South West Norfolk and Spelthorne in their places today? How about the member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip - or is he on holiday again? They should have been forced to listen as this mess is largely down to them.
 

Bletchleyite

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The minimum wage rise is good and bad I'd say. Good because the poorest need more money. Bad because it'll drive some small businesses to the wall, or they'll need to cut hours to pay for it. Not sure what I'd have done there. I think I'd probably have avoided a rise but done a tax allowance tweak to give people on the minimum wage the equivalent in reduced taxation, possibly funded by dropping the 40% band down a bit.
 

brad465

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I don't think you are alone by a long way. I am not a natural Conservative voter but have voted blue on occasions. The chances of that happening again diminished massively in September 2019 when Johnson booted out many of their MPs for whom politics is rather more than chanting three-word slogans and rolling out inaccurate stats or unachievable goals (target date - well past the next election). Unfortunately, having seen that the Conservative membership is perfectly capable of electing a clueless and incompetent idealogue once, I don't trust them not to do so again, and they have quite a number to choose from.
I couldn't stand Corbyn as Labour leader, mainly because of his supporters. I am prepared to vote Labour while Starmer is in charge mainly because I reckon he will try and steer a moderate path, I just wish I was more impressed with his front bench; but only if we have a moderate candidate. LibDems - for goodness sake try and find some candidates with fire in their belly, they are like the political equivalent of The Good Life.
If as predicted Labour gain a large number of seats at the next election then by default they should have more talent available, part of the problem was some prospective leaders/shadow cabinet members lost their seats in 2019, limiting Starmer's options. There also seem to be efforts to stop some Corbynites standing as candidates which may help with options in future too.
 

jfollows

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An aside, were the members for South West Norfolk and Spelthorne in their places today? How about the member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip - or is he on holiday again? They should have been forced to listen as this mess is largely down to them.
The BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-63591754) reported Theresa May & Boris Johnson were present but no sign of Liz Truss.
 

Kite159

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The minimum wage rise is good and bad I'd say. Good because the poorest need more money. Bad because it'll drive some small businesses to the wall, or they'll need to cut hours to pay for it. Not sure what I'd have done there. I think I'd probably have avoided a rise but done a tax allowance tweak to give people on the minimum wage the equivalent in reduced taxation, possibly funded by dropping the 40% band down a bit.
Agreed, using my workplace for example when someone on minimum wage leaves they either don't get replaced (with the work spread to the remaining staff) or the replacement is hired on less hours (35 hours instead of 37.5 hours).

For some food businesses it will increase the rate of bringing in self service machines to decrease the wage bill
 

najaB

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For some food businesses it will increase the rate of bringing in self service machines to decrease the wage bill
An ideological question that may not fit in this thread, but one has to ask if the loss of a job that is easily filled by a machine is actually a bad thing for society overall? Employment for the sake of employment rather than because the job increases net economic value is a feature of centrally-planned economies.
 

DustyBin

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The minimum wage rise is good and bad I'd say. Good because the poorest need more money. Bad because it'll drive some small businesses to the wall, or they'll need to cut hours to pay for it. Not sure what I'd have done there. I think I'd probably have avoided a rise but done a tax allowance tweak to give people on the minimum wage the equivalent in reduced taxation, possibly funded by dropping the 40% band down a bit.

I actually had a conversation a restaurant owner yesterday who is going to have to cut hours to survive (cleaners and waiting staff were mentioned specifically - low earners to begin with). People will be pushed towards Universal Credit which is the last thing we need. Your tax tweak isn't a bad idea but I wouldn't want to see it paid for by lowering the higher rate threshold. Not for purely selfish reasons (I won't lie, it does come into it to a degree!) but because many people at the lower end of the band are being squeezed already. Plus (and you could argue this is ideological) I think we need to be careful that we don't penalise hard work and introduce further obstacles to social mobility.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

An ideological question that may not fit in this thread, but one has to ask if the loss of a job that is easily filled by a machine is actually a bad thing for society overall? Employment for the sake of employment rather than because the job increases net economic value is a feature of centrally-planned economies.

My first thought is what happens to the people who find themselves unemployed? Incidentally I think it's a very good question, and one we're likely to face in the not-too-distant future.
 

nw1

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An ideological question that may not fit in this thread, but one has to ask if the loss of a job that is easily filled by a machine is actually a bad thing for society overall? Employment for the sake of employment rather than because the job increases net economic value is a feature of centrally-planned economies.

I would argue yes. It is causing the loss of jobs, and while it might be seen as acceptable to the government if profits increase, I would argue that such mechanisation of jobs is a bad thing.

Additionally, it's not that customer friendly either. I have encountered mechanisation of this nature in eating places I frequent recently, and the software is frequently buggy with poor usability, and wait times for food are longer overall.

Likewise in Boots. They've mechanised and queue times have increased. Loss of jobs too. Win-win for the company, lose-lose for customers and employees.

It worries me the way society has gone since Covid, it really does. Sky-high prices. An NHS in a terrible state. Loss of train and bus services. Unreliable public transport (long walks home in the rain on at least two occasions recently due to non-existent buses, and this is on a main corridor in an urban area). Loss of rights via Brexit (unrelated, admittedly). And increased mechanisation and less personal service. There's little good at all about today's society compared to what has gone before, and while a Labour government will be somewhat better, I'm not sure we will ever fully recover. Not in my lifetime anyhow.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It wasn't a very Tory statement, to be honest. It was a bit more just-left-of-centre. I'd have expected it from e.g. Gordon Brown under Blair.

Tax the rich a bit*, windfall taxes, slightly restrained public spending, still build HS2, NPR and EWR is basically it.

* I'm slightly surprised the change to the 45% rate bands wasn't taken as an opportunity to remove the rather silly staircasing of the personal allowance, which means that within a certain range of incomes if you get a pay rise you get almost nothing to show for it. A lower 45% band but keeping the full personal allowance makes more sense. It seems odd to clobber a specific band of upper middle income for what is in effect a super-tax.

Was expecting much more savage spending cuts, so that's something. Perhaps they realised that their popularity would tank further if they tried that, and that even the likes of Hunt could potentially lose his seat (came close to happening on one occasion during the Blair years).
 
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edwin_m

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One of the major problems facing the UK economy is shortage of labour, so it's not really surprising if employers are replacing some jobs by mechanisation. The UK has also fallen behind other countries in productivity, which suggests we've been employing more people to do less work than those countries. However, if the economy tanks as it did in 2008 then unemployment might increase and/or productivity might increase less, as companies choose not to invest in more mechanisation.
 

DelayRepay

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I actually had a conversation a restaurant owner yesterday who is going to have to cut hours to survive (cleaners and waiting staff were mentioned specifically - low earners to begin with). People will be pushed towards Universal Credit which is the last thing we need. Your tax tweak isn't a bad idea but I wouldn't want to see it paid for by lowering the higher rate threshold. Not for purely selfish reasons (I won't lie, it does come into it to a degree!) but because many people at the lower end of the band are being squeezed already. Plus (and you could argue this is ideological) I think we need to be careful that we don't penalise hard work and introduce further obstacles to social mobility.
My solution to this would be to raise the minimum wage, but compensate small business owners somehow by a change to their own taxes. Maybe a reduction on the Employers National Insurance rate for firms with less than 100 employees? Bigger companies can probably afford the increase so any 'compensation' for higher wage bills should be targeted at small businesses.

I also wonder if it's time to think about reintroducing the 10p tax rate band somewhere? There needs to be a balance between protecting low earners, and people contributing to the cost of public services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It worries me the way society has gone since Covid, it really does. Sky-high prices. An NHS in a terrible state. Loss of train and bus services. Unreliable public transport (long walks home in the rain on at least two occasions recently due to non-existent buses, and this is on a main corridor in an urban area). Loss of rights via Brexit (unrelated, admittedly). And increased mechanisation and less personal service. There's little good at all about today's society compared to what has gone before, and while a Labour government will be somewhat better, I'm not sure we will ever fully recover. Not in my lifetime anyhow.

I don't disagree with the general problems. Personally I am not opposed to mechanisation in general. It has always happened and it always will yet we do not have widespread unemployment; new jobs appear to replace the old ones. People do need to be prepared to change and learn new skills, though.

As a customer, I find some mechanisation more convenient. In a shop if I just have a few items I am happy to self-serve. Where I object is when the service is poor and there's no other option. E.g. many organisations removing helplines or hiding the numbers and expecting customers to deal with a 'chatbot' which, unless your question is very simple, probably won't be able to help. But businesses will respond to consumer demand. Are people willing to pay a bit more for a company who have humans available to answer the phone? I think I am, but only for certain services.
 

najaB

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I would argue yes. It is causing the loss of jobs, and while it might be seen as acceptable to the government if profits increase, I would argue that such mechanisation of jobs is a bad thing.
But they are, by definition, poor value jobs.
 

jfollows

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An aside, were the members for South West Norfolk and Spelthorne in their places today? How about the member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip - or is he on holiday again? They should have been forced to listen as this mess is largely down to them.
Alex Wickham from Bloomberg (https://twitter.com/alexwickham) reports that Liz Truss was having lunch away from the Commons:
Liz Truss was missing from the Commons today Instead she had lunch with a friend at the Harry’s Bar private members’ club in Mayfair "One of the most elegant and sophisticated clubs in London... an atmosphere of relaxed luxury"
 

nw1

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I don't disagree with the general problems. Personally I am not opposed to mechanisation in general. It has always happened and it always will yet we do not have widespread unemployment; new jobs appear to replace the old ones. People do need to be prepared to change and learn new skills, though.
I think it's the sheer rapidity of the change since Covid though that's the issue. People I suspect can deal with change more readily if it's more gradual. Things have gone too far, too fast.
As a customer, I find some mechanisation more convenient. In a shop if I just have a few items I am happy to self-serve.
I don't mind it, and use it if I have to (e.g. no staff around), but I am worried about its impact on jobs.
Where I object is when the service is poor and there's no other option. E.g. many organisations removing helplines or hiding the numbers and expecting customers to deal with a 'chatbot' which, unless your question is very simple, probably won't be able to help.
Yes, one of my pet hates, companies hiding themselves behind walls and making it difficult to get through to a real person. Strangely I find small businesses, who one would think would be more financially stretched and thus more likely to be forced to cut costs, are the ones who can be bothered to provide a personal service and ready, accessible help. My ISP for instance, who are small, rather expensive, but good.

But businesses will respond to consumer demand. Are people willing to pay a bit more for a company who have humans available to answer the phone? I think I am, but only for certain services.
True: see above for an example.
 
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