Future of Class 379

[HamworthyGoods]

I never said anything about more trains on the BML. More stock = longer trains = less overcrowding which seems to be an issue on southern at the moment.

And more stock = more cost

Trains maybe busy but is there really any more overcrowding on trains to the south coast than there was pre-covid?

 

[WizCastro197]

I never said anything about more trains on the BML. More stock = longer trains = less overcrowding which seems to be an issue on southern at the moment.

I think you are forgetting that Brighton gets 6tph to London.

I am confused about this Longer Trains thing. Most Brighton services ran as 12 coach so do Gatwick express and Thameslink.

Trains aren't always 12 coaches due to availability of stock, there are other factors at play, eg. Platform Length etc.

 

[AzureOtsu]

I think you are forgetting that Brighton gets 6tph to London.

I am confused about this Longer Trains thing. Most Brighton services ran as 12 coach so do Gatwick express and Thameslink.

Trains aren't always 12 coaches due to availability of stock, there are other factors at play, eg. Platform Length etc.

This is why we have SDO

You also seem to be tunnel visioning on the BML when a lot of the other southern network could do with longer trains. having 4 cars on a Southampton central stopper is woefully inadequate

 

[HamworthyGoods]

In an ideal world the 701s should have been in service long ago but it seems everyone is waiting on limbo for the magical day aslef finally gives the green light on letting the units get introduced into service. I find it very ironic how people seem to deem modification on the 379s a waste of money when we have all these 769s being built on 30 year old trains that haven't seen a day in service on gwr. it seems common sense and the privatised railway don't go hand in hand

The 769s were ordered pre-covid, they wouldn’t have been ordered in a post covid world.

The 769s are also on lease which would require a termination fee to get out of, the 379s are off lease at the natural end of their previous lease period.

 

[AzureOtsu]

387s are not compatible with 377s neither probably will 379s so can't all be in the common pool. Defeats the purpose entirely.

Also Thameslink don't combine units so they have no issues but Southern, in your plan, have many different variants which don't all work together,

But southern seem to have no issues running 387s on the east and west coastways however?

 

[WizCastro197]

This is why we have SDO

You also seem to be tunnel visioning on the BML when a lot of the other southern network could do with longer trains. having 4 cars on a Southampton central stopper is woefully inadequate

Not very train needs to be 12 coach.

Even with your plan, running every train 12 coach will inevitably cause a stock shortage in addition to your statement that 167 units should operate only Coastway leaving on 61 operating all metro and mainline services.

But southern seem to have no issues running 387s on the east and west coastways however

Because 387s only work in single units or paired with another 387 unit. It isn't as simple say coupling a 387 and a 377 like coupling a 377/3 and a 377/4

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I think we are back to the only reason for needing 379s is for service enhancements which given the current funding situation as @Bald Rick has said is simply not going to happen. He is very much in the knowledge when it comes to the current situation. Indeed most TOCs are focussing on how to retain what they already have or make efficiencies not actively working up enhancements.

 

[AzureOtsu]

Not very train needs to be 12 coach.

Even with your plan, running every train 12 coach will inevitably cause a stock shortage in addition to your statement that 167 units should operate only Coastway leaving on 61 operating all metro and mainline services.



Because 387s only work in single units or paired with another 387 unit. It isn't as simple say coupling a 387 and a 377 like coupling a 377/3 and a 377/4

I don't remember ever saying all trains needed to be 12 coaches, nor did I say they would need to have compatibility with 377 units. I was just speculating the benefits of Southern having a pool of only electrostars to operate longer services on their existing routes. with passenger numbers slowly climbing up precautions need to be taken or the public image of the railway will continue to decline.

8 coaches on the Brighton to Southampton central service seems very reasonable.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I don't remember ever saying all trains needed to be 12 coaches, nor did I say they would need to have compatibility with 377 units. I was just speculating the benefits of Southern having a pool of only electrostars to operate longer services on their existing routes. with passenger numbers slowly climbing up precautions need to be taken or the public image of the railway will continue to decline.

8 coaches on the Brighton to Southampton central service seems very reasonable.

Passenger numbers have largely settled since September and the widespread prediction is as the looming recession and cost of living crisis continues to bite they will start to tail off again.

Whilst some TOCs are shuffling capacity around at the moment I don’t believe any are actively looking to overall increase capacity at the present time.

 

[gdj]

379 020,029, loco haul Ilford to Worksop Wednesday 16/11/22

5Q87​

12:35​

Ilford EMUD

Worksop Down Yard

 

[Mikey C]

Passenger numbers have largely settled since September and the widespread prediction is as the looming recession and cost of living crisis continues to bite they will start to tail off again.

Whilst some TOCs are shuffling capacity around at the moment I don’t believe any are actively looking to overall increase capacity at the present time.

But with the downturn we're also seeing employers starting to get stricter with employees and insisting more start returning to the office.

 

[CBlue]

This is rapidly turning into the 442 debacle all over again. @AsureOtsu I admire you conviction that "simply" putting conductor shoes and changing the class number on 30 trains will magically make a TOC want them...but it won't as no-one is signing off that conversion cost. Instead you seem to be driving the argument in circles -its less speculative and more "silly"!

 

[Southern Dvr]

379 020,029, loco haul Ilford to Worksop Wednesday 16/11/22

5Q87​

12:35​

Ilford EMUD

Worksop Down Yard

These being the ‘good’ ones that were moved down from Crown Point?

Won’t be in such good condition if they’re going to be at Worksop for any time. The end is nigh.

This is rapidly turning into the 442 debacle all over again. @AsureOtsu I admire you conviction that "simply" putting conductor shoes and changing the class number on 30 trains will magically make a TOC want them...but it won't as no-one is signing off that conversion cost. Instead you seem to be driving the argument in circles -it’s less speculative and more "silly"!

I agree.

If the 379s (I’ll say that yet again for effect) IF THE 379s were going anywhere it would be where there’s a need for AC ONLY EMUs. If nobody can afford them in current state who is going to afford to convert them to DC??

You’ve got to accept at some point that these units that could have been very useful to a TOC will not see passengers again. The DfT is very much to blame. I’m sure various TOCs in an ideal world would have snapped them up if the price was right and the money was there. However it’s not & the DfT won’t allow them to.

When they go in the big train shredder then you can only hope there is a real fanfare of negative publicity.

 

[43102EMR]

When they go in the big train shredder then you can only hope there is a real fanfare of negative publicity.

Again, there’s no guarantee that’s what’s going to happen - yes it’s a strong possibility, but let’s wait and see what happens.

Also, not one of the Crown Point ones - 003, 018, 023 and 024 were the ones from Norwich.

 

[AzureOtsu]

This is rapidly turning into the 442 debacle all over again.

I find that extremely ironic and irrelevant considering the 442s are 20 years older than the 379s and lack the flexibility of the electrostar platform.

When they go in the big train shredder then you can only hope there is a real fanfare of negative publicity.

I agree that after this wider rolling stock debacle that seems to be going on in our network it should enlighten a wake-up call to the general public about the actions of the DFT

 

[WizCastro197]

I find that extremely ironic and irrelevant considering the 442s are 20 years older than the 379s and lack the flexibility of the electrostar platform.


I agree that after this wider rolling stock debacle that seems to be going on in our network it should enlighten a wake-up call to the general public about the actions of the DFT

Sorry how exactly is this irrelevant. Apart from age.

Please enlighten me about the flexibility of the electrostar platform, they don't seem to be flexible as we are in this situation?

They can't work together across variants so aren't really flexible at all.


379s have a software based on a different operating system to other Electrostars and are AC only.


If they were all DC and AC all had same software base and could work with each other across class numbers then that would be flexible. But they don’t hence why we are here.

 

[JonathanH]

I agree that after this wider rolling stock debacle that seems to be going on in our network it should enlighten a wake-up call to the general public about the actions of the DFT

Huh? All the DfT are doing is recognising that there is less demand (and more importantly revenue) than there used to be.

 

[jackot]

I find that extremely ironic and irrelevant considering the 442s are 20 years older than the 379s and lack the flexibility of the electrostar platform.

The Electrostar platform can be as flexible as you like, but if no TOCs want/can afford them, then they are useless. Sure, they are newer and have lots of common parts with other fleets compared to say the 442s did, but there is still no demand for used EMUs with very high leasing costs at the moment - whether they are 'flexible' or 'have lots of life left in them' is irrelevant. As I've said before, I'm sure GTR would love to have some nice 379s for Great Northern or Southern, but if the money is not there then that's that I'm afraid.

 

[43102EMR]

Huh? All the DfT are doing is recognising that there is less demand (and more importantly revenue) than there used to be.

The railways are almost at 100% of pre-pandemic usage - the only thing slowing this down is the ongoing union disputes which the government refuse to resolve.

 

[WizCastro197]

The railways are almost at 100% of pre-pandemic usage - the only thing slowing this down is the ongoing union disputes which the government refuse to resolve.

Almost 100% of Off Peak usage not Peak.

 

[Trainbike46]

Almost 100% of Off Peak usage not Peak.

Passenger numbers are reported of the total usage, so we're almost back to the same overall usage.

However, the recovery at peak times & london commuter land have been slower than elsewhere. In many other places passenger numbers now exceed pre-pandemic numbers, especially off-peak and at weekends. Unfortunately the 379s would primarily be useful in london commuter land, and there stock requirements are determined by peak passenger numbers - which are still lower

 

[AzureOtsu]

Sorry how exactly is this irrelevant. Apart from age.

Please enlighten me about the flexibility of the electrostar platform, they don't seem to be flexible as we are in this situation?

They can't work together across variants so aren't really flexible at all.

What I'm trying to argue is that the electrostar designs differ very little in each other and just like DC electrostars have provision for AC conversion, AC electrostars have the same for dc. From a logistical standpoint it makes sense for them to be built to a standardised design where TOCs can cherry pick the specifications. looking at a cab of a 379 it's virtually identical to a 377/375 even down to there being space left for a DC control system underneath the AC control system. Non AC 377/375s have only a DC control system fitted with dual voltage electrostars having both. If you look at the images of the cabs you will see what I mean.

 

[zwk500]

Passenger numbers are reported of the total usage, so we're almost back to the same overall usage.

But one passenger does not pay the same as another, so the important metric is revenue which is still lagging behind.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The DfT is very much to blame. I’m sure various TOCs in an ideal world would have snapped them up if the price was right and the money was there. However it’s not & the DfT won’t allow them to.

There’s many at DfT equally as fed up, they are acting under instruction from the treasury.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Nov 2022 ==

Almost 100% of Off Peak usage not Peak.

Correct, in London and South East (which was the cash cow that funded the railways) ridership in the peak is still way down, in some cases still nearly 50% down.

But one passenger does not pay the same as another, so the important metric is revenue which is still lagging behind.

Indeed, revenue which funds the entire railway is still drastically down on pre-covid due to the loss of the railways bread and butter. The only solution to the funding model if people wish to run more trains is either fares rises or higher taxes.

 

[Skimble19]

Also, not one of the Crown Point ones - 003, 018, 023 and 024 were the ones from Norwich.

Where were these ones stored prior to this?

 

[43102EMR]

Where were these ones stored prior to this?

Harwich Parkeston

 

[Mikey C]

But then it's not as if new train procurement has stopped entirely, with Southeastern after a replacement for the Networkers.

The 379s obviously couldn't be a direct replacement for them, but I'm sure someone at the DfT will be thinking that some sort of swap and rejig might mean 30 fewer new trains being needed.

 

[MattRat]

But then it's not as if new train procurement has stopped entirely, with Southeastern after a replacement for the Networkers.

The 379s obviously couldn't be a direct replacement for them, but I'm sure someone at the DfT will be thinking that some sort of swap and rejig might mean 30 fewer new trains being needed.

You'd think so, but the DFT seems to operate under second by second decision making. And right this second, no need for them so bye bye. Who cares if they'd be needed in say, 2023, that's a whole year away!

Of course this actually ends up being more expensive in the long run, but that's future DFTs problem.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

But then it's not as if new train procurement has stopped entirely, with Southeastern after a replacement for the Networkers.

The 379s obviously couldn't be a direct replacement for them, but I'm sure someone at the DfT will be thinking that some sort of swap and rejig might mean 30 fewer new trains being needed.

However manufactures tend to go for minimum numbers or discount for bulk so there may actually be no saving buying slightly less new but having to spend money adapting and bringing back into traffic a decommissioned fleet. It’s a difficult one to evaluate.

 

[43096]

Passenger numbers are reported of the total usage, so we're almost back to the same overall usage.

Passenger numbers isn’t the relevant metric when DfT and the Treasury look at it. Revenue is king, and that’s still well below pre-pandemic levels. I wouldn’t be surprised to see fares tweaked to extract more revenue from off-peak passengers.