Future of Class 379

[HamworthyGoods]

more 387s with shoes would greatly benefit southern

I’m not quite sure what for though?
There’s already plans to dispense with 313s once the cascade of 707s to South Eastern happen.

There is no funding for additional capacity or additional services on existing services.

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Southern don't seem to (are not allowed to) need extra 387s.

Precisely!

 

[D365]

In fact, what's stopping them being made third rail capable and keeping everything else the same (so still the same class)?

Somebody needs to pay for it.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Somebody needs to pay for it.

Exactly, most TOCs at the moment are having battles to retain what they already have not gain extra trains!

 

[RobShipway]

As I believe was suggested earlier on in this thread, if the class 379's where given third rail shoes and also given battery capability, the class 379 units could make it such that all class 171 units with Southern could go to EMR and Southern would have a fleet of all Electrostar trains.

But I have to agree, that there is no money for these sort of changes at the moment. Whether that will change before the need to scrap the class 379's, who knows.

 

[Southern Dvr]

As I believe was suggested earlier on in this thread, if the class 379's where given third rail shoes and also given battery capability, the class 379 units could make it such that all class 171 units with Southern could go to EMR and Southern would have a fleet of all Electrostar trains.

But I have to agree, that there is no money for these sort of changes at the moment. Whether that will change before the need to scrap the class 379's, who knows.

This comment is not directed at anybody in particular, just at all who seem to think 379s are going to solve the stock shortage problems.

The theme on this thread recurs and recurs…….THERE IS NO MONEY.

If there is not enough money to put them pretty much straight into service in their current form then where would the money to make all these modifications come from?

The 379s are excellent units that would be a very useful to any regional or suburban TOC that has OHLE.

However.

The leasco doesn’t appear to be dropping the asking price and DfT don’t appear to be allowing any TOCs to spend money on stock acquisition.

What the Leasco might want to do is play the politics here. Take your worst unit, send it for scrap. Ensure there’s plenty of pictures taken and ensure they get seen by the relevant parties.

“10 year old train scrapped whilst passengers stand” etc…

 

[dk1]

Exactly, most TOCs at the moment are having battles to retain what they already have not gain extra trains!

Are any TOCs actually battling to retain stock?

 

[Southern Dvr]

Are any TOCs actually battling to retain stock?

GWR & XC HSTs possibly.

 

[dk1]

GWR & XC HSTs possibly.

I think that’s just down to cost & how ancient they are isn’t it? They’ll be replaced with something else anyway.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Are any TOCs actually battling to retain stock?

Yes, through the Annual Business Plan process for next financial year all TOCs are having to find ways of saving costs - don’t forget a high cost is leasing trains.

As others have eluded to on this forum the budget for next year for TOCs will be at best the same as this year which means real term cuts because of inflation and increasing energy costs. Jeremy Hunt has made this quite clear within his statements these rising costs will have to be dealt with within this years budget profile. That’s before any further spending/budget cuts are announced this week.

People should not estimate what a financial black hole this puts the railway in, reducing train fleets is one way of saving money. You will have seen @Bald Rick make reference on here to how challenging things are at the moment.

 

[ashkeba]

The theme on this thread recurs and recurs…….THERE IS NO MONEY.

There is money, but no lessons were learned from austerity and there is no sign that DfT will spend it or the Treasury will give it them, so effectively the same thing.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Yes, through the Annual Business Plan process for next financial year all TOCs are having to find ways of saving costs - don’t forget a high cost is leasing trains.

As others have eluded to on this forum the budget for next year for TOCs will be at best the same as this year which means real term cuts because of inflation and increasing energy costs. Jeremy Hunt has made this quite clear within his statements these rising costs will have to be dealt with within this years budget profile. That’s before any further spending/budget cuts are announced this week.

People should not estimate what a financial black hole this puts the railway in, reducing train fleets is one way of saving money. You will have seen @Bald Rick make reference on here to how challenging things are at the moment.

Common sense says the railways will have to save money. Indeed that is the case for everyone / everything. It really is. How much the railways have to save depends on how much less subsidy they get which depends on how much demand there is from society for rail services. Given the railways are giving the impression of being a hungry overgrown child I fear there might not be much goodwill to justify subsidy.

As you say @Bald Rick (who seems to know his stuff) does not seem optimistic about prospects - perhaps worried is a better word.

There is money, but no lessons were learned from austerity and there is no sign that DfT will spend it or the Treasury will give it them, so effectively the same thing.

I really do not think there is any money. Rather more there is debt. Can you allude to this money you speak of ?.

 

[WizCastro197]

As I believe was suggested earlier on in this thread, if the class 379's where given third rail shoes and also given battery capability, the class 379 units could make it such that all class 171 units with Southern could go to EMR and Southern would have a fleet of all Electrostar trains.

But I have to agree, that there is no money for these sort of changes at the moment. Whether that will change before the need to scrap the class 379's, who knows.

No point replacing 171s they are good for the routes they operate for example where some stations have extremely short platforms.

I honestly think with the whole 379 situation if a company is fine with stock etc then nothing should change, stick with what works. I really wouldn't try and replace everything just for appearance of having whole electrostar fleet.


If Southern really wanted to do this, I highly doubt they would take on 379s, more so stick with their current fleet. But there isn't any money as you said for any modifications which heavily prevent them from being introduced to the south.


I do think the problem obviously lies with how 379s were originally constructed, eg only single mode of power, immediately eliminates most of the south, lack of compatibility with other electrostars. But I suppose in the end Bombardier and GA at the time made/ordered the units with the prospect that they would be in service with Greater Anglia until they ran out the clock.

 

[Trainbike46]

Is there any chance the 379s could end up with southeastern, given they issued a tender for secondhand trains as well as new? There isn't enough 379s, but it might work either combined with other stock or through a cascade of 387s. I'm sure their owners are looking at ways to make it work somehow

 

[WizCastro197]

Is there any chance the 379s could end up with southeastern, given they issued a tender for secondhand trains as well as new? There isn't enough 379s, but it might work either combined with other stock or through a cascade of 387s. I'm sure their owners are looking at ways to make it work somehow

No compatibility again, only singular mode. Southeastern want trains already equipped with 750 DC shoes. Isn't going to work out.

 

[Carlisle]

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This also allowed many of the off peak services to be switched to DOO operation with the 317s

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The 317s never ran DOO on LTS lines. By the time the new platform equipment was commissioned they’d been replaced by the 357s

 

[AzureOtsu]

This comment is not directed at anybody in particular, just at all who seem to think 379s are going to solve the stock shortage problems.

The theme on this thread recurs and recurs…….THERE IS NO MONEY.

If there is not enough money to put them pretty much straight into service in their current form then where would the money to make all these modifications come from?

The 379s are excellent units that would be a very useful to any regional or suburban TOC that has OHLE.

However.

The leasco doesn’t appear to be dropping the asking price and DfT don’t appear to be allowing any TOCs to spend money on stock acquisition.

What the Leasco might want to do is play the politics here. Take your worst unit, send it for scrap. Ensure there’s plenty of pictures taken and ensure they get seen by the relevant parties.

“10 year old train scrapped whilst passengers stand” etc…

Even if they go to GN i doubt it would cost an arm an a leg to update the software for inter compatibility with 387s and paint new numbers on the front, even so, aren't there a bunch of redundant electrostar third rail shoes laying around from the GWR and GN 387s for the scenario of them potentially moving down south? considering the modular design of the electrostar I don't think it would be too difficult to stick them on the 379s if need be

 

[JonathanH]

I don't think it would be too difficult to stick them on the 379s if need be

Is it really as simple as just putting on conductor shoes?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Even if they go to GN i doubt it would cost an arm an a leg to update the software for inter compatibility with 387s and paint new numbers on the front, even so, aren't there a bunch of redundant electrostar third rail shoes laying around from the GWR and GN 387s for the scenario of them potentially moving down south? considering the modular design of the electrostar I don't think it would be too difficult to stick them on the 379s if need be

But why does GN need them? No need to spend any money leave the 379s where they are.

 

[Mamorin]

GN does not need the 379s anymore, GN only needed the 379s for the internal cascade plan earlier this year that never happened.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

GN does not need the 379s anymore, GN only needed the 379s for the internal cascade plan earlier this year that never happened.

Indeed this thread seems to be going round in circles trying to find a use for a fleet of trains clearly nobody needs!

 

[WizCastro197]

Even if they go to GN i doubt it would cost an arm an a leg to update the software for inter compatibility with 387s and paint new numbers on the front, even so, aren't there a bunch of redundant electrostar third rail shoes laying around from the GWR and GN 387s for the scenario of them potentially moving down south? considering the modular design of the electrostar I don't think it would be too difficult to stick them on the 379s if need be

It isn't that simple? It is quite obvious that it isn't.

Just 'sticking' on a conductor shoe isn't going to power the whole train, several systems need to be in place to make sure power is fed properly.

Again time and money which make them unattractive.



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GN does not need the 379s anymore, GN only needed the 379s for the internal cascade plan earlier this year that never happened.

This cascade plan seems to flying around many threads of which I can no longer remember.

 

[AzureOtsu]

Is it really as simple as just putting on conductor shoes?

Probably about as simple as sticking pantograph equipment on any 4XX or 3XX DC only unit built since privatisation, that is why they have pantograph wells despite being DC only units.

Whilst the bogies don't initially look like they support DC shoes, it's within my understanding that some DC electrostars are having their bogies replaced during their midlife refurbishment which under the right circumstances could be extended to the 379s to add third rail compatibility to the bogies.

what I'm saying is purely speculative but in an ideal scenario these units could potentially replace the 387s on Gatwick express, leaving the 387s to operate southern metro routes and move all 377/1s & 377/4s to the south coast.

It seems far too wasteful to scrap units that are of a very common subclass to the most numerous type of emu in the country, remember the outcry of the 365s being scrapped even through they were nearing the end of their operational life having outdated software and little flexibility on the network. these units are much newer and still have a lot of potential.

people need to stop whining about their only fate being a one way trip to Sims and start thinking about genuine solutions that can solve the impending stock shortage on the south coast once the 313s are withdrawn.

 

[WizCastro197]

Probably about as simple as sticking pantograph equipment on any 4XX or 3XX DC only unit built since privatisation, that is why they have pantograph wells despite being DC only units.

Whilst the bogies don't initially look like they support DC shoes, it's within my understanding that some DC electrostars are having their bogies replaced during their midlife refurbishment which under the right circumstances could be extended to the 379s to add third rail compatibility to the bogies.

what I'm saying is purely speculative but in an ideal scenario these units could potentially replace the 387s on Gatwick express, leaving the 387s to operate southern metro routes and move all 377/1s & 377/4s to the south coast.

It seems far too wasteful to scrap units that are of a very common subclass to the most numerous type of emu in the country, remember the outcry of the 365s being scrapped even through they were nearing the end of their operational life having outdated software and little flexibility on the network. these units are much newer and still have a lot of potential.

people need to stop whining about their only fate being a one way trip to Sims and start thinking about genuine solutions that can solve the impending stock shortage on the south coast once the 313s are withdrawn.

379s won't fix the issue of stock shortage.

As many have stated over and over and over and over and over again, there money isn't there to modify trains like that. If they need to be put in service, which at the moment it seems as if they don't, then I am sure no TOC will be willing to be make such modifications and would rather trains be put straight into traffic.


Southern have already received some 387s from Gatwick Express which do operate on Coastway freeing up 377s for other services. 377/3s have now appeared quite regularly on West Coastway routes. Southern already have an internal plan to fix shortage which hasn't even come yet.

You must be joking right? All 377/1/4s operate Coastway services? Hang on, what do we get? only the /2s? There sure aren't many to operate all mainline services and /6/7s can't operate all as well.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

people need to stop whining about their only fate being a one way trip to Sims and start thinking about genuine solutions that can solve the impending stock shortage on the south coast once the 313s are withdrawn.

There isn’t an impending stock shortage on the South Coast however.

313s are hanging on with a reduced number of diagrams until the final 10 class 707s get released from SWR to South Eastern by the introduction of class 701s, that then releases enough 377s back to Southern to dispense with the 313s.

No extra rolling stock needed.

 

[AzureOtsu]

379s won't fix the issue of stock shortage.

Southern have already received some 387s from Gatwick Express which do operate on Coastway freeing up 377s for other services. 377/3s have now appeared quite regularly on West Coastway routes.

You must be joking right? All 377/1/4s operate Coastway services? Hang on, what do we get? only the /2s? There sure aren't many to operate all mainline services and /6/7s can't operate all as well.

did you not read the part of my proposal that stated that 387s could operate metro routes alongside 377/6s and 377/7s with 379s taking up full GEX operation.

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There isn’t an impending stock shortage on the South Coast however.

313s are hanging on with a reduced number of diagrams until the final 10 class 707s get released from SWR by the introduction of class 701s, that then releases enough 377s back to Southern to dispense with the 313s.

No extra rolling stock needed.

If southern are unable to run a direct Brighton to victoria service, there is a problem in my eyes.

In an ideal world the 701s should have been in service long ago but it seems everyone is waiting on limbo for the magical day aslef finally gives the green light on letting the units get introduced into service. I find it very ironic how people seem to deem modification on the 379s a waste of money when we have all these 769s being built on 30 year old trains that haven't seen a day in service on gwr. it seems common sense and the privatised railway don't go hand in hand

 

[WizCastro197]

did you not read the part of my proposal that stated that 387s could operate metro routes alongside 377/6s and 377/7s with 379s taking up full GEX operation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Nov 2022 ==


If southern are unable to run a direct Brighton to victoria service, there is a problem in my eyes.

The lack of a Victoria to Brighton service has nothing to do with stock.

I don't think you realise how many metro services are operated by /1 and 4/s. 61 units working in place of 167 is sure going to go down well?

There aren't many /6 or /7s and Reigate, Horsham and Dorking services aren't metro neither are Cat/tatt services.

 

[AzureOtsu]

The lack of a Victoria to Brighton service has nothing to do with stock.

I don't think you realise how many metro services are operated by /1 and 4/s

There aren't many /6 or /7s and Reigate, Horsham and Dorking services aren't metro neither are Cat/tatt services.

I am aware of this but my previous proposal was to upgrade 379s to have compatability with 387s so GTR could have a common fleet of all electrostars that can run all duties similar to how Thameslink operate all services with class 700s

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If southern are unable to run a direct Brighton to victoria service, there is a problem in my eyes.

That’s not down to a stock shortage nit the service specification. The paths which used to run to Brighton have been used to run the East and West Coastway services as separate trains instead of portion working at Haywards Heath.

What you’re on about is using 379s to create a service enhancement which in the current climbs won’t be funded as it’s very difficult to justify Brighton needs more than 6tph to London. There’s very few cities that have this level of frequency to London.

 

[AzureOtsu]

That’s not down to a stock shortage nit the service specification. The paths which used to run to Brighton have been used to run the East and West Coastway services as separate trains instead of portion working at Haywards Heath.

What you’re on about is using 379s to create a service enhancement which in the current climbs won’t be funded as it’s very difficult to justify Brighton needs more than 6tph to London. There’s very few cities that have this level of frequency to London.

I never said anything about more trains on the BML. More stock = longer trains = less overcrowding which seems to be an issue on southern at the moment.

The south east of England is very dense in population compared to the rest of the country, to compare it to other cities further away from the capital that lack similar rail infrastructure is unfair.

 

[WizCastro197]

I am aware of this but my previous proposal was to upgrade 379s to have compatability with 387s so GTR could have a common fleet of all electrostars that can run all duties similar to how Thameslink operate all services with class 700s

387s are not compatible with 377s neither probably will 379s so can't all be in the common pool. Defeats the purpose entirely.

Also Thameslink don't combine units so they have no issues but Southern, in your plan, have many different variants which don't all work together,