What is a timetable?

[MisterSheeps]

Recent travel difficulties (TOCs, stock, staff, infrastructure), since Covid, make me wonder what a published (public) railway timetable actually is. I worked supporting systems for a university timetabling department; we strived for best practice accuracy while admitting it was subject to vagaries; and exhorted staff & students to regularly check the website. In railway terms, the public biannual passenger timetable obviously isn't a legal contract, but, given NR daily modify the effective working timetable, would a public granularity of more updates than twice a year make more sense? Why not monthly? Given the move away from printed timetables, it would maybe engender more public confidence that what is purported to be offered stands a reasonable chance of actually transpiring.

 

[JonathanH]

It is an interesting question, but you have to have a base timetable from which to start, and the base level of timetable doesn't need to change that frequently. Indeed, sometimes it doesn't at the existing timetable reviews. At other reviews times will be adjusted slightly to reflect lessons learnt from actual operation.

From that base level of timetable, it seems reasonable that times need to be adjusted for engineering work and the other issues you raise.

In the Redhill area where I live, the base level of service at the weekend has six through trains to London each hour. Engineering work typically means that not all of the service groups can run so the operator runs the services which are feasible. That doesn't invalidate a base timetable as it indicates which services could run and they select the ones which they are able to run, but it still has some link to what is in the base timetable. The point is that engineering work in different locations means a different timetable each week, every month wouldn't do it.

Clearly that is relevant to the Brighton line and may not be to other routes. However, I don't think it is a granular case of a monthly timetable rather than twice a year changes.

 

[zwk500]

At the moment, NR does have a legal contract with the Train operating company to produce a timetable that lasts six months. It's in a document called the Network Code, which IIRC is available on NRs website. The 6 monthly interval is part of an agreement with European railways. It is part of the things under discussion with Brexit/GBR, not sure what the current status is.
Rewriting a timetable takes several years. Changing the base timetable (which has to include freight and departmental moves) every month is not within NR or the TOCs current planning capacities.

 

[MisterSheeps]

the base level of service at the weekend has six through trains to London each hour

That is effectively a turn up & go service where passengers don't need to know the timetable minutiae, only have a reasonable belief they won't wait too long. Is very different from, say, Avanti or TPE, to Scotland. The travelling public are not great at timetables, hence why regular interval services are helpful

The 6 monthly interval is part of an agreement with European railways.

maybe, but even under BR there were summer & winter timetables, sensibly as years ago people almost hibernated between October & March, so a winter reduction means you wouldn't provide excess capacity.
There's a tradeoff between long term planning and public confidence, but the more disruptions, the less usefull the timetable is.

 

[JonathanH]

That is effectively a turn up & go service where passengers don't need to know the timetable minutiae, only have a reasonable belief they won't wait too long. Is very different from, say, Avanti or TPE, to Scotland. The travelling public are not great at timetables, hence why regular interval services are helpful

Indeed, but it is almost always cut to 4tph, and sometimes 2tph at the weekend depending on what engineering work is happening.

With regard to Avanti, recent weeks have seen Trent Valley closures and industrial action with the result of services from Manchester and Liverpool having been diverted via Birmingham, in some cases stopping. I'm not sure that it would have been helpful for that timetable to apply more generally on weekends when a more complete service could run, just for standardisation over a particular period.

The travelling public look at their phone or computer and assess whether a journey is possible with reference to what the journey planner says.

There's a tradeoff between long term planning and public confidence, but the more disruptions, the less usefull the timetable is.

Indeed, the timetable has become a base against which the deliverable timetable is defined.

 

[507020]

Basically this year, the definition of a timetable has become utterly meaningless, especially on a certain Avanti West Coast. The amount of services cancelled after midnight before which are no longer considered part of the timetable that day is just ridiculous for anyone making any attempt to use the railway.

From that base level of timetable, it seems reasonable that times need to be adjusted for engineering work and the other issues you raise.

In the Redhill area where I live, the base level of service at the weekend has six through trains to London each hour. Engineering work typically means that not all of the service groups can run so the operator runs the services which are feasible. That doesn't invalidate a base timetable as it indicates which services could run and they select the ones which they are able to run, but it still has some link to what is in the base timetable. The point is that engineering work in different locations means a different timetable each week, every month wouldn't do it.

Clearly that is relevant to the Brighton line and may not be to other routes.

In the Redhill area, I noticed one day this year, after a strike when Southern were operating a Sunday timetable but GWR were not (or vice versa, I can’t remember which) the platform at Reigate was actually booked to be occupied by both a Turbo and an Electrostar simultaneously, which is not possible within the capabilities of the infrastructure for obvious reasons.

I will have to try and elevate to the role of timetable planner in future to try and resolve some of these inadequacies myself!

 

[Western Lord]

A timetable, what is it?
It's a big book with train times, but that's not important right now.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

A timetable, what is it?

It's a big book with train times, but that's not important right now.

And would probably be filed nowadays in the 'Fiction' section if if was still available at your local reference library.

 

[geoffk]

Since 1958, when my interest in railways began, we always had a stable timetable which changed twice a year with a fixed end date (for most of that period, a summer and winter timetable), unlike buses, where timetables were usually issued "until further notice". We had a big book or series of smaller books, then leaflets, but all of these gave you some confidence that what was printed would actually turn up, barring a major incident. All this has gone now and we have trains arbitrarily removed from the timetable the night before, something previously unheard of. The wide range of digital information has made this practice so easy and it's no wonder that the rail industry and its masters at the DfT/Treasury don't want to see printed timetables return.

 

[TheSel]

Recent travel difficulties (TOCs, stock, staff, infrastructure), since Covid, make me wonder what a published (public) railway timetable actually is.

It is a means of evaluating how late your train is. Little else.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Basically this year, the definition of a timetable has become utterly meaningless, especially on a certain Avanti West Coast. The amount of services cancelled after midnight before which are no longer considered part of the timetable that day is just ridiculous for anyone making any attempt to use the railway.

In the Redhill area, I noticed one day this year, after a strike when Southern were operating a Sunday timetable but GWR were not (or vice versa, I can’t remember which) the platform at Reigate was actually booked to be occupied by both a Turbo and an Electrostar simultaneously, which is not possible within the capabilities of the infrastructure for obvious reasons.

I will have to try and elevate to the role of timetable planner in future to try and resolve some of these inadequacies myself!

That's because there was no time to fix the clash. Everyone knows its impossible.

 

[zwk500]

I will have to try and elevate to the role of timetable planner in future to try and resolve some of these inadequacies myself!

Well, an extra pair of hands would help them try and get through the mountainous backlog of work atm.

 

[Minstral25]

In the Redhill area, I noticed one day this year, after a strike when Southern were operating a Sunday timetable but GWR were not (or vice versa, I can’t remember which) the platform at Reigate was actually booked to be occupied by both a Turbo and an Electrostar simultaneously, which is not possible within the capabilities of the infrastructure for obvious reasons.

I will have to try and elevate to the role of timetable planner in future to try and resolve some of these inadequacies myself!

Good luck - normally GTR/GWR have the advantage in Redhill area that @JonathanH points out the clashes to them

 

[30907]

Since 1958, when my interest in railways began, we always had a stable timetable which changed twice a year with a fixed end date (for most of that period, a summer and winter timetable), unlike buses, where timetables were usually issued "until further notice". We had a big book or series of smaller books, then leaflets, but all of these gave you some confidence that what was printed would actually turn up, barring a major incident.

...or a work to rule ("action short of a strike" now), or an unofficial dispute, or staff shortages (the latter were routine in the late 70s/early 80s on the SR, to the point that some larger employers would routinely ring the SR telephone enquiries to check if they needed to send staff home early.

All this has gone now and we have trains arbitrarily removed from the timetable the night before, something previously unheard of.

Agreed - they should be cancelled not simply disappear.

PS the first timetable I remember is 1959, so you just beat me!

 

[MisterSheeps]

but that's not important right now.

well, the sort of thing that NRE coughs out, I would say, is not a timetable, is an itinerary. Which is fine for Joe Public going A to C, but no use for planning multi leg journeys, which needs a timetable. To give an example, years ago several friends & I were heading for St Gervais (French Alps). Various delays, until we got stranded at Bourg en Bresse. Consulting the timetable (framed leafed metal thing with all the region's line timetables; Indicateur Chaix) revealed a route through the Jura to Bellegarde, to get the train we had missed.
What mystifies me is, if the continentals could publish and display a credible accurate timetable 46 years ago in the essentially pre computer age, why can't that be done now, via the web, or printed display?

 

[507020]

And would probably be filed nowadays in the 'Fiction' section if if was still available at your local reference library.

My local library has been closed and was demolished in 2013, as were the next 2 nearest, except that one was a listed building which now lies derelict.

That's because there was no time to fix the clash. Everyone knows its impossible.

A clash like that shouldn’t be allowed to be timetabled in the first place. I can only imagine the chaos if it had happened at a bigger station!

Well, an extra pair of hands would help them try and get through the mountainous backlog of work atm.

I’d just do a full recast myself and judging by recent events it would end up being implemented due to the lack of an alternative.

 

[zwk500]

well, the sort of thing that NRE coughs out, I would say, is not a timetable, is an itinerary. Which is fine for Joe Public going A to C, but no use for planning multi leg journeys, which needs a timetable. To give an example, years ago several friends & I were heading for St Gervais (French Alps). Various delays, until we got stranded at Bourg en Bresse. Consulting the timetable (framed leafed metal thing with all the region's line timetables; Indicateur Chaix) revealed a route through the Jura to Bellegarde, to get the train we had missed.
What mystifies me is, if the continentals could publish and display a credible accurate timetable 46 years ago in the essentially pre computer age, why can't that be done now, via the web, or printed display?

NRE is set up precisely to deliver an itinerary, because that's what people want. NR do publish the timetables in PDF https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/the-timetable/electronic-national-rail-timetable/

 

[WAB]

I will have to try and elevate to the role of timetable planner in future to try and resolve some of these inadequacies myself!

GTR are always short of STP planners, so now's the time to step up lol

 

[Taunton]

In the Redhill area, I noticed one day this year, after a strike when Southern were operating a Sunday timetable but GWR were not (or vice versa, I can’t remember which) the platform at Reigate was actually booked to be occupied by both a Turbo and an Electrostar simultaneously, which is not possible within the capabilities of the infrastructure for obvious reasons.

Some years ago, when the Bakerloo Underground still ran up the BR DC line to Watford, weekend works between Willesden and Wembley needed a bus shuttle between those points, with both Underground and BR trains terminating either side. Shortly before, the works were cancelled. BR reinstated the normal timetable, but the Underground said they did not have sufficient time to change their timetable and crewing. So the BR trains worked through, but were significantly delayed by the Underground trains terminating and shunting at those points. The Underground replacement bus ran, but without any passengers all day, because it was always quicker to just wait for the following BR train a few minutes behind.

Back to timetable presentation. I do regret the current trend to do without, replacing it with a computer enquiry of between which two stations, when do you want to start, etc, and then just showing one or two trains. There are all sorts of elements that can only be seen in a proper timetable, which should be able to be produced by the same computer just as readily. I suspect those programming the information system maybe have insufficient skills to understand a traditional timetable, and thus consider nobody else can either.

Network Rail some years ago were bursting to discontinue the traditional national timetable, and had to be reminded multiple times not to do so. I see recently they have subcontracted its production out to an independent company.