Terminal Stations in Steam/Loco Hauled Days

[blue sabre]

Morning all, (or afternoon,evening,g'night depending on when you read this!)
Not sure I have put this in the right place so feel free to move and chastise as you please!

Back in the day, before push pull loco services what would happen when a passenger service arrived at it's terminal - say Kings Cross? Obviously it is stuck in a bay platform with a rake of carriages behind it so therefore unable to scuttle away to a turntable to get back facing the right way at the head of the train. The answer is probably really obvious, and a have a theory on how it may have been done, but if someone could clear it up I'd appreciate it!

Thanks.

 

[Zoe]

Back in the day, before push pull loco services what would happen when a passenger service arrived at it's terminal - say Kings Cross? Obviously it is stuck in a bay platform with a rake of carriages behind it so therefore unable to scuttle away to a turntable to get back facing the right way at the head of the train. The answer is probably really obvious, and a have a theory on how it may have been done, but if someone could clear it up I'd appreciate it!

This wouldn't apply at all stations but many had locomotive release crossovers. If not then a second locomotive could be attached to the front haul the train. This is how it was done at Waterloo in the days of the class 50s.

 

[theblackwatch]

The loco wouldn't stay with the stock. For example, at King's Cross, 55012 would arrive with the 08.05 from Hull, uncouple, 47403 would back onto the rake and return to Leeds with the set. 55012 would then be release, go off to Finsbury Park for fuel or back onto another set of stock. Simple!

 

[dk1]

Most terminals also had a station pilot. Usually a class 03 or 08.

 

[me123]

If you've ever played SimSig King's Cross on the 1985 or 1977 timetables (and probably others as well) you may get an idea of what happens. The train arrives, hauled by loco #1. Another loco (#2) attaches to the other end and takes the train away. #1 is then on its own, and can go out of the station and attach to another rake in another platform (or, as TBW has suggested, go for fuel etc as required).

It was obviously a lot more complex than having DVTs, MUs, and HSTs like we do nowadays, and I presume this took up valuable approach paths to some of the busier terminal stations.

 

[gordonthemoron]

as I live next to a terminus which still has loco hauled trains, I agree with both black watch & dk1. There is also another method though, reversing the train out to the depot with a member of staff at the back in radio contact with the driver

 

[blue sabre]

This wouldn't apply at all stations but many had locomotive release crossovers. If not then a second locomotive could be attached to the front haul the train. This is how it was done at Waterloo in the days of the class 50s.

The loco wouldn't stay with the stock. For example, at King's Cross, 55012 would arrive with the 08.05 from Hull, uncouple, 47403 would back onto the rake and return to Leeds with the set. 55012 would then be release, go off to Finsbury Park for fuel or back onto another set of stock. Simple!

This was what I thought they would do, but it seemed far too sensible, and from reading this forum I've tended to find that the sensible option is not the one usually taken by the railways. (Well in recent times anyway.)

 

[sprinterguy]

Most terminals also had a station pilot. Usually a class 03 or 08.

And before that, at least around my way, a J72 or J71(?) 0-6-0T steam loco.

 

[Welshman]

Depended on the type of service and the terminal station.
For example, with a long-distance service arriving at, say, Kings Cross or Euston, the coaches would be drawn off by the station pilot, and either taken to the carriage sidings for servicing or propelled into another platform, releasing the incoming engine to go for refuelling, watering, turning, etc.

But with shorter suburban services, particularly the "jazz" service from Liverpool St, a fresh train engine would be attached to the "country" end simultaneously as the incoming train engine was being detached at the buffers, and the stock could be back out again on the next service within 10 minutes or so. Then the released engine would wait at the head of the platform to be attached to the next incoming service - the process repeating with each engine stepping back during the cycle.

All calling for nifty operating and the more complicated trackwork of former times!

On some branch lines, this time-consuing procedure was avoided by using "push-pull" trains, where the steam engine stayed at one end, supervised by an experienced fireman, and the driver drove from an adapted coach, rather like an early dvt, at the other end.


Apologies to Zoe, theblackwatch, dk1,me123, gordonthemoron & sprinterguy.
You're all faster typists than me!

 

[blue sabre]

If you've ever played SimSig King's Cross on the 1985 or 1977 timetables (and probably others as well) you may get an idea of what happens. The train arrives, hauled by loco #1. Another loco (#2) attaches to the other end and takes the train away. #1 is then on its own, and can go out of the station and attach to another rake in another platform (or, as TBW has suggested, go for fuel etc as required).

It was obviously a lot more complex than having DVTs, MUs, and HSTs like we do nowadays, and I presume this took up valuable approach paths to some of the busier terminal stations.

I did that game, can't say I was very successful at it!

 

[jopsuk]

as well as loco-release loops (there are still some stations with the vestiges of these where the space hasn't been reclaimed for extra or wider platforms) there were loco sheds nearby, carriage sidings and turntables. If a coaching rake wasn't going out again soon it may be towed by a station pilot (shunter locomotive- there's a reason why there were so many of these built) to the carriage sidings.

Loco release loops meant reduced useable length of the platform- the incoming train had to stop so that the carriages were clear of the points, then the loco had to have enough room beyond the points to pull in to before reversing. There are still working loco-release facilities at some stations- for instance, Great Yarmouth has facilities for the summer special drags.

 

[dk1]

Back in the 1970s Great Yarmouth's 03 was kept busy with the 5 loco-hauled sets that terminated each evening/started each morning. Also there was the newspaper plus 2 parcels trains. During the day & as required it would also shunt the goods yard.

Summer Saturdays where something else though. Too too much work for the poor pilot to cope so many trains would push-back to the carriage sidings to run-round. If the trains wasnt more than 11 coaches it could stop short & run-round in platforms 2/3. Trouble was there was often a train occuping all 4 platforms so this wasnt always possible.

 

[LexyBoy]

Something I noticed recently at Paris Gare du Nord (where a good proportion of suburban stock is loco-hauled, though mostly push/pull) was that the detached loco at the station end followed the train out of the station - only a few tens of metres behind. Didn't see where it went - I guess to wait for the next train - but by the exit of the station was probably doing 20-30 mph.

Was this practise common here? Is special signalling required or is it just assumed that the light loco could stop much faster than the train if there was any need to stop?

 

[John Webb]

The 'old-fashioned' engine release cross-over and the 'running round' way of doing things is viewable on most of our heritage railway lines, of course.

 

[gordonthemoron]

lexyboy, they do that in Munich too, looks dodgy

 

[Welshman]

Something I noticed recently at Paris Gare du Nord (where a good proportion of suburban stock is loco-hauled, though mostly push/pull) was that the detached loco at the station end followed the train out of the station - only a few tens of metres behind. Didn't see where it went - I guess to wait for the next train - but by the exit of the station was probably doing 20-30 mph.

Was this practise common here? Is special signalling required or is it just assumed that the light loco could stop much faster than the train if there was any need to stop?

I certainly remember the incoming engine following the train up to the starting signal, so presumably there must have been some local regulation allowing two trains in the one section.
Also at stations at the foot of a steep gradient, such as the old Bradford Exchange, the incoming engine would bank the outgoing train.

 

[me123]

I did that game, can't say I was very successful at it!

Neither timetable is particularly easy! But I understand it's a fairly accurate representation of how things worked.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . the detached loco at the station end followed the train out of the station - only a few tens of metres behind. Didn't see where it went - I guess to wait for the next train - but by the exit of the station was probably doing 20-30 mph.

Was this practise common here? Is special signalling required or is it just assumed that the light loco could stop much faster than the train if there was any need to stop?

This was very common practice.
The detached locomotive (which had hauled a train into a terminal platform, would move off immediately behind the departing train, under permissive working and using 'calling on' signals. Skilled and prepared drivers would avoid delays by setting off as close to the departing train as possible.
The light locomotive would of course come to rest further out, while the departing train continued, this allowed the route to be set for the light loco to enter a yard for fuelling, turning or completing its duties.

However, 'calling on' is a hazardous manoeuvre; with signalling showing 'proceed' for two movements on the same track at the same time and with poor visibility from the reversing locomotive, there were incidents.

 

[matchmaker]

Something I noticed recently at Paris Gare du Nord (where a good proportion of suburban stock is loco-hauled, though mostly push/pull) was that the detached loco at the station end followed the train out of the station - only a few tens of metres behind. Didn't see where it went - I guess to wait for the next train - but by the exit of the station was probably doing 20-30 mph.

Was this practise common here? Is special signalling required or is it just assumed that the light loco could stop much faster than the train if there was any need to stop?

At Glasgow Queen Street the detached loco was often used to bank the departing train up Cowlairs Incline. It then went to Eastfield for fuelling/servicing.

 

[route:oxford]

At Glasgow Queen Street the detached loco was often used to bank the departing train up Cowlairs Incline. It then went to Eastfield for fuelling/servicing.

Sometimes servics were hauled up the Cowlairs incline, with a reversal on the West Highland line(?) junction.

On the odd occasion the DMUs were banked up the Cowlairs incline too. I recall being on a heavily loaded 3 car unit (usually 6 car for that service) that couldn't make it up the incline, we limped back and made a second "charge", also unsuccesful. We were then banked up the incline - I think by a 37, but not sure.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Stepping back of locos tended to be more common at the busy London termini, wheras at the other end locos would normally just run around. Frequency was a bit part of it, as it dictates how long a stepped back loco will have to wait for it's next duty, as does the business of the station (as running around requires either a loop or use of the adjacent platform road). Most major termini still have facilities to run locos around their stock, particularly if loco haulage was still used when the last resignalling took place (and even with push pull, running around is useful if there is a problem with the DVT). When it comes to odd loco hauled services where run around facilities are not provided, then normally the stock will be removed by another loco to a depot or sidings where it can run around.

 

[Statto]

At Lime Street on Loco hauled trains, the Loco would be decoupled from the train, the Loco woud wait for the Train to depart, then run into a siding, wait for another Loco hauled train to arrive, then depart from the siding & attatch itself onto the train.

I'm not sure how Steam engines turned around though.

 

[Tomnick]

This was very common practice.
The detached locomotive (which had hauled a train into a terminal platform, would move off immediately behind the departing train, under permissive working and using 'calling on' signals. Skilled and prepared drivers would avoid delays by setting off as close to the departing train as possible.
The light locomotive would of course come to rest further out, while the departing train continued, this allowed the route to be set for the light loco to enter a yard for fuelling, turning or completing its duties.

However, 'calling on' is a hazardous manoeuvre; with signalling showing 'proceed' for two movements on the same track at the same time and with poor visibility from the reversing locomotive, there were incidents.

It was very common for the 'incoming' loco to follow a departing train up to the platform starter and wait there until it once again cleared (usually for a different route). Not sure I've ever heard of the loco being signalled permissively over subsequent signal sections though.

 

[greg tingey]

Liverpool Street in steam days .....
N-7 brings train of quint-arts in, uncouples.
Another N-7 runs in from short holding road at platform ends, couples up to same set ...
Train pulls out again.
All in less than 10 minutes.

First N-7 shuffles up platform road to holding road, waits for next in bound ,,, etc, ALL DAY!

 

[50041]

Most terminals also had a station pilot. Usually a class 03 or 08

Not a terminal but happy memories of a station pilot (and a couple of BRUTEs) at Newcastle:

http://englishelectric.zenfolio.com/p1012715457/e3226c24e

 

[RichmondCommu]

Stepping back of locos tended to be more common at the busy London termini, wheras at the other end locos would normally just run around. Frequency was a bit part of it, as it dictates how long a stepped back loco will have to wait for it's next duty, as does the business of the station (as running around requires either a loop or use of the adjacent platform road). Most major termini still have facilities to run locos around their stock, particularly if loco haulage was still used when the last resignalling took place (and even with push pull, running around is useful if there is a problem with the DVT). When it comes to odd loco hauled services where run around facilities are not provided, then normally the stock will be removed by another loco to a depot or sidings where it can run around.

Are there any termini left in London which have this facility? I'm not aware of any but would love to be proved wrong!

 

[Poolie]

And before that, at least around my way, a J72 or J71(?) 0-6-0T steam loco.

Location Birmingham???? Surely you mean 68723 and 68736 ! Traveling up from London in the late 50's early 60's I would stick my head out of the window and look for one of these two as we came into Newcastle. The A4's were the stars of the East Coast, but to see the NER liveried J72's unfashionably working away was what the every day railway was about......................and as for J27's and Q6's....................

 

[sprinterguy]

Location Birmingham???? Surely you mean 68723 and 68736 ! Traveling up from London in the late 50's early 60's I would stick my head out of the window and look for one of these two as we came into Newcastle. The A4's were the stars of the East Coast, but to see the NER liveried J72's unfashionably working away was what the every day railway was about......................and as for J27's and Q6's....................

Yeah, I was referring to my original “round my way”, of Newcastle, rather than my established current home of Brum!

 

[matchmaker]

Sometimes servics were hauled up the Cowlairs incline, with a reversal on the West Highland line(?) junction.

On the odd occasion the DMUs were banked up the Cowlairs incline too. I recall being on a heavily loaded 3 car unit (usually 6 car for that service) that couldn't make it up the incline, we limped back and made a second "charge", also unsuccesful. We were then banked up the incline - I think by a 37, but not sure.

There were (in the 1969 ScR Sectional Appendix) rules about the number of working engines before a DMU could start up Cowlairs. If there were not enough working, the unit had to be banked.

Present day 156/158/170 make it look so easy!

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Something I noticed recently at Paris Gare du Nord (where a good proportion of suburban stock is loco-hauled, though mostly push/pull) was that the detached loco at the station end followed the train out of the station - only a few tens of metres behind. Didn't see where it went - I guess to wait for the next train - but by the exit of the station was probably doing 20-30 mph.

Was this practise common here? Is special signalling required or is it just assumed that the light loco could stop much faster than the train if there was any need to stop?

This was regularly carried out at termini here. It was known as "Station yard working" and a local instruction would be in existance which would be worded along the lines of "Locomotives off inbound trains may follow the outbound service as far as the starting signal". Common sense would dictate that if this hadn't happened then the signalman's permision would have to be sought before the loco dropped down to the starter. At a terminus like King's Cross in the seventies there would have to be some nifty loco diagramming due to the amount of drivers from different depots working in with many not signing all of the loco classes arriving. King's Cross and Hitchin blokes didn't sign 37s, Cambridge and Hitchin blokes didn't sign 40/46/55s. The same was true to a lesser extent at Liverpool Street where Kings Lynn blokes didn't sign 47s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This was very common practice.
The detached locomotive (which had hauled a train into a terminal platform, would move off immediately behind the departing train, under permissive working and using 'calling on' signals. Skilled and prepared drivers would avoid delays by setting off as close to the departing train as possible.
The light locomotive would of course come to rest further out, while the departing train continued, this allowed the route to be set for the light loco to enter a yard for fuelling, turning or completing its duties.

However, 'calling on' is a hazardous manoeuvre; with signalling showing 'proceed' for two movements on the same track at the same time and with poor visibility from the reversing locomotive, there were incidents.

No "calling-on" signals from the buffer stops. The driver would - providing local instructions allowed - simply follow the train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At Lime Street on Loco hauled trains, the Loco would be decoupled from the train, the Loco woud wait for the Train to depart, then run into a siding, wait for another Loco hauled train to arrive, then depart from the siding & attatch itself onto the train.

I'm not sure how Steam engines turned around though.

Off to the depot and turn. On the left of the tunnel looking to-wards gasworks tunnel from the platform ends at Kings Cross it may seem difficult to realise but there was a loco yard there with a 70' turntable. Liverpool Street also had a turntable but I think that that was a 60' one.