Elizabeth Line core - last trains access to platforms

[Leisurefirst]

I am familar with the policy at main termini to close doors on trains in advance of departure.
However twice in the last week I have used the Elizabeth Line (or in one case attempted to) and seen access being denied to the platforms minutes before the last train.
Is this an actual policy to deter people running down the escalators etc?
Last night (10/11 tube strike) I arrived at Moorgate two to three minutes before the last Westbound to Paddington according to National Rail Enquiries at 22.29 after having walked some distance from an unfamiliar location.
The gates were pulled to and a member of staff was stopping anybody from entering (before I got there too, there were several people there).
There were no departures on the screens on the ticket hall and I asked them what time the last train was and was told (lied to, I've checked RTT) 22.25.
This was at about 22.27.
Afterwards people then started to exit the station presumably from a train.
(RTT shows there was an Abbey Wood service at 22.28 and the Paddington departed at nearly 22.30).
This resulted in a walk to catch the 205 bus from Liverpool Street which luckily came straight away but not so luckily took 90 minutes to reach Great Portland Street then be diverted because some genius thought it was a good idea to go ahead and resurface Euston/Marylebone Road from 10pm on a strike day. I baled out as it was still stuck just trying to go down the diversion and walked 45 minutes home instead along with numerous women after midnight.
I arrive back at 12.50 rather than the 10.55 or so had I been allowed down to the Elizabeth Line.
Last Saturday I also saw people in front of me being denied access down to the EL who were travelling Eastbound. I was travelling Westbound and from a distance ot looked like the EL was shut full stop.
It was only when I got further towards the escalators I heard him say "no more Eastbound" so mentioned Paddington and was let down.
When I got down there the last Eastbound was just coming in. The people denied access in front of me would easily have gotten the train without running.
At least they could get the tube that night instead.
So... is this an official policy or not please?
Thankfully I am savvy with that part of London. Had I not been or was travelling to Paddington to catch a GWR train home not acceptable at all. Would GWR pay to get somebody home to Oxford for example in this circumstance?

 

[jon81uk]

Generally where there are screens in entrances, tickets halls or the other end of a moving walkway / escalator to the platform, TfL don't show trains that are less than 2-4 (depending on the distance) minutes away, to prevent people rushing down the escalators to catch it.

Not sure if there is "official policy" but it happens in many places. The DLR has screens at entrances that don't show departures less than two minutes away. The new moving walkway at Bank has a screen showing central line departures, this only shows trains more than four minutes away.

 

[Leisurefirst]

Generally where there are screens in entrances, tickets halls or the other end of a moving walkway / escalator to the platform, TfL don't show trains that are less than 2-4 (depending on the distance) minutes away, to prevent people rushing down the escalators to catch it.

Not sure if there is "official policy" but it happens in many places. The DLR has screens at entrances that don't show departures less than two minutes away. The new moving walkway at Bank has a screen showing central line departures, this only shows trains more than four minutes away.

Thought so, thank you.
A simple "the train is due in 2/3 minutes, but please walk carefully down" would suffice rather than telling people the train has gone when it hasn't and sending them on wild goose chases.

 

[BJames]

Elizabeth line at least at Liv St definitely takes their trains off early - think it shows 4 minutes and then takes it off before it gets to three minutes (can't remember if it shows 3 mins or not) - but when the 5 min intervals Abbey Wood-Paddington were on I would see the next train due in 8 mins advertised and know I could make it down in time.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I was on the 22:24 Liverpool Street to Reading last night - there were announcements on the train that Liverpool Street, Tottenham Court Road and Bond Street would close at 22:30 and we would stop at the first two but not the latter. There was nothing about Farringdon though? It's possible you might have been able to catch a later train from Farringdon but I'm not sure.
(Edit just to clarify: it seemed to me that later trains were still running through the core but not stopping at the stations run by LU)

 

[AM9]

I was on the 22:24 Liverpool Street to Reading last night - there were announcements on the train that Liverpool Street, Tottenham Court Road and Bond Street would close at 22:30 and we would stop at the first two but not the latter. There was nothing about Farringdon though? It's possible you might have been able to catch a later train from Farringdon but I'm not sure.
(Edit just to clarify: it seemed to me that later trains were still running through the core but not stopping at the stations run by LU)

As TL runs all night, access from street level wouldn't be stopped, unless if there weren't any TL services around the time of the last XR train, they could temporarily close the gateline, - but of course there's the Met/Circle gateline then.

 

[Parjon]

If you can't catch a train from the platform at 22:28 they shouldn't have a timetable saying the train leaves at 22:28.

I know how many minutes it takes for me to walk down to certain platforms from certain locations, and time my departures accordingly. Arriving quite calmly 2 or 3 minutes before a departure is due to leave.

 

[Paul Kelly]

If you can't catch a train from the platform at 22:28 they shouldn't have a timetable saying the train leaves at 22:28.

I know how many minutes it takes for me to walk down to certain platforms from certain locations, and time my departures accordingly. Arriving quite calmly 2 or 3 minutes before a departure is due to leave.

I would hazard a guess that's it's cock-up more than conspiracy here - someone was told that the station closed at 22:30, and simply removed all calls from schedules after that time.

 

[JonathanH]

As TL runs all night, access from street level wouldn't be stopped, unless if there weren't any TL services around the time of the last XR train, they could temporarily close the gateline, - but of course there's the Met/Circle gateline then.

Thameslink doesn't run from Farringdon all night, only St Pancras and Blackfriars.

 

[thomalex]

Great service tonight heading from Liverpool Street to Ealing Broadway. Very busy as you’d expect but nice short dwell times, including Paddington, was just like the tube so presumably was making up some time but should ideally always be like this.

Love the way the train rockets out of tunnels and onto Ealing when everything’s working correctly.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Last night was my first time on EL since through running began. Was actually really surprised at how many stayed on at Paddington.

 

[AM9]

Thameslink doesn't run from Farringdon all night, only St Pancras and Blackfriars.

OK I didn't know that Farringdon was skipped in the small hours, but the current M-F timetable shows that the last Thameslink trains to stop at Farringdon is at 00:26 in both directions. That is way past the last two Crossrail Trains at 22:25 & 22:26, so access to the Crossrail platforms for the last train would be available from both TL platforms and the Cowcross Street entrance.

 

[mrmartin]

OK I didn't know that Farringdon was skipped in the small hours, but the current M-F timetable shows that the last Thameslink trains to stop at Farringdon is at 00:26 in both directions. That is way past the last two Crossrail Trains at 22:25 & 22:26, so access to the Crossrail platforms for the last train would be available from both TL platforms and the Cowcross Street entrance.

Elizabeth line runs way later now with the 2nd phase. Last westbound departure to Pad at 0026, eastbound to shenfield at 0030.

 

[ModernRailways]

I am familar with the policy at main termini to close doors on trains in advance of departure.
However twice in the last week I have used the Elizabeth Line (or in one case attempted to) and seen access being denied to the platforms minutes before the last train.
Is this an actual policy to deter people running down the escalators etc?
Last night (10/11 tube strike) I arrived at Moorgate two to three minutes before the last Westbound to Paddington according to National Rail Enquiries at 22.29 after having walked some distance from an unfamiliar location.
The gates were pulled to and a member of staff was stopping anybody from entering (before I got there too, there were several people there).
There were no departures on the screens on the ticket hall and I asked them what time the last train was and was told (lied to, I've checked RTT) 22.25.
This was at about 22.27.
Afterwards people then started to exit the station presumably from a train.
(RTT shows there was an Abbey Wood service at 22.28 and the Paddington departed at nearly 22.30).
This resulted in a walk to catch the 205 bus from Liverpool Street which luckily came straight away but not so luckily took 90 minutes to reach Great Portland Street then be diverted because some genius thought it was a good idea to go ahead and resurface Euston/Marylebone Road from 10pm on a strike day. I baled out as it was still stuck just trying to go down the diversion and walked 45 minutes home instead along with numerous women after midnight.
I arrive back at 12.50 rather than the 10.55 or so had I been allowed down to the Elizabeth Line.
Last Saturday I also saw people in front of me being denied access down to the EL who were travelling Eastbound. I was travelling Westbound and from a distance ot looked like the EL was shut full stop.
It was only when I got further towards the escalators I heard him say "no more Eastbound" so mentioned Paddington and was let down.
When I got down there the last Eastbound was just coming in. The people denied access in front of me would easily have gotten the train without running.
At least they could get the tube that night instead.
So... is this an official policy or not please?
Thankfully I am savvy with that part of London. Had I not been or was travelling to Paddington to catch a GWR train home not acceptable at all. Would GWR pay to get somebody home to Oxford for example in this circumstance?

I've noticed this to be a common theme on the new Crossrail stations and last night for you was no exception. They close the stations and make them essentially 'exit only', instead they could simply keep the stations open and then once the last trains have departed, they close the station, announcing trains have all departed and to leave the station.
I have a feeling that this is simply due to the staff being mostly new and they've been trained in this way - a very similar situation happens in Hong Kong and has caught me out numerous times albeit not recently, they stop allowing people in 5 minutes before the last train.
If the last train is timetabled at 22:28 then I should be able to enter the station up until that time, and possibly for a couple of minutes after to account for any possible delays. If I miss the last train oh well, I'll go get a bus, but at least give me the opportunity to miss it, don't just tell me it's left when in reality it's still at the previous station.
The best thing to do is to make a complaint to TfL, show times of trains and the time you were denied access to the station. Outline what you have to us and that it meant you got home almost 2 hours later and also request compensation for the trouble, they've refunded me 3 trips now due to this.

 

[tomuk]

I have a feeling that this is simply due to the staff being mostly new and they've been trained in this way - a very similar situation happens in Hong Kong and has caught me out numerous times albeit not recently, they stop allowing people in 5 minutes before the last train.

Well who has the concession for running the Elizabeth Line? MTR Corporation of Hong Kong.

 

[Mojo]

Generally where there are screens in entrances, tickets halls or the other end of a moving walkway / escalator to the platform, TfL don't show trains that are less than 2-4 (depending on the distance) minutes away, to prevent people rushing down the escalators to catch it.

There is no one design of “TfL” screen and they all behave differently. The screens installed by TubeLines at the Jubilee, Northern, and Piccadilly line stations for instance display the trains on the ticket hall display right up until they come into the platform; and once it’s on the approach it will still display destination, just with no time. The Metronet displays and also the more modern monitors drop the entire train at a time which seems locally configured for each station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2022 ==

OK I didn't know that Farringdon was skipped in the small hours, but the current M-F timetable shows that the last Thameslink trains to stop at Farringdon is at 00:26 in both directions. That is way past the last two Crossrail Trains at 22:25 & 22:26, so access to the Crossrail platforms for the last train would be available from both TL platforms and the Cowcross Street entrance.

Farringdon is still subject to minimum staffing levels and if there are not adequate LUL staff avaliable then either the whole, or part of, the station would have to close with trains non-stopping. It was originally expected that TLRailUK trains would have to non-stop Farringdon after 22.30 with Crossrail continuing to 00.30, however additional staff were found to keep both sections operating to 00.30.

 

[AM9]

Elizabeth line runs way later now with the 2nd phase. Last westbound departure to Pad at 0026, eastbound to shenfield at 0030.

@Paul Kelly was posting about the situation at 22:30 which my suggestion was in response to.

 

[Mojo]

I was on the 22:24 Liverpool Street to Reading last night - there were announcements on the train that Liverpool Street, Tottenham Court Road and Bond Street would close at 22:30 and we would stop at the first two but not the latter. There was nothing about Farringdon though? It's possible you might have been able to catch a later train from Farringdon but I'm not sure.
(Edit just to clarify: it seemed to me that later trains were still running through the core but not stopping at the stations run by LU)

Farringdon & Whitechapel were open until 00.30.

 

[hkstudent]

On Thursday, after 2200, Liverpool Street and, TCR and Bond Street EL were closed due to lack of staff or licensed ambassador, thus the denial of entry.
Should OP have walked to Farringdon, the station was open till 0030, with the service hours of both TL and EL extended.

But as always, on strike days, don't travel on last minutes as staff level may not sustain till the last hours especially on those LU linked stations.

 

[Paul Kelly]

That is way past the last two Crossrail Trains at 22:25 & 22:26

My point was that I don't think those were the last two trains to stop at Farringdon; I think trains called much later than that and the published timetable was misleading. This seems to be confimed by Mojo and hkstudent above. So the OP had a very unfortunate evening and could have been delayed probably only by 15 minutes or so had they walked from Moorgate to Farringdon.

 

[JaJaWa]

The MTR (HK) policy that they may be implementing – as shown on journey planners:
“The time shown is the scheduled departure time from the platform. Passengers for the last train should enter the station at least 5 minutes before the scheduled departure time.”

and timetables:
“Passengers may not pass through the entry gates less than 5 minutes before the scheduled departure times of the last train.”

 

[Scott1]

Thought so, thank you.
A simple "the train is due in 2/3 minutes, but please walk carefully down" would suffice rather than telling people the train has gone when it hasn't and sending them on wild goose chases.

If the careful walk is more than 2 minutes then it would be too late for that, however I'm unfamiliar with this station so no idea if that would be the case?

 

[Birmingham]

I get you have to balance with health and safety but it seems rather ‘nanny state’ to decide when people can safely make a train, especially the last train and especially in a place as busy and fast-paced as London. Be nice to allow a little more personal responsibility.

 

[Mojo]

I get you have to balance with health and safety but it seems rather ‘nanny state’ to decide when people can safely make a train, especially the last train and especially in a place as busy and fast-paced as London. Be nice to allow a little more personal responsibility.

The problem is less so people rushing for the train, but people missing the train and the staff then having difficulty to get them out of the station, preventing contractors booking on and carrying out work.

 

[Chris M]

The problem is less so people rushing for the train, but people missing the train and the staff then having difficulty to get them out of the station, preventing contractors booking on and carrying out work.

I've heard more than one account of staff being assaulted in such circumstances.

 

[theking]

Can't see the problem, you turn up a couple of minutes before the last train on a strike day not sure what you expect also it's not as if you walk through the barriers and walk straight to the trains.

EL platforms are a slog from the gatelines.

All well and Good saying keep it open until the train departs then you've got people who missed it down on the platforms upset which is ripe for abusing staff.

Don't see why people can't plan better.

 

[Birmingham]

The problem is less so people rushing for the train, but people missing the train and the staff then having difficulty to get them out of the station, preventing contractors booking on and carrying out work.

Fair enough, I didn’t realise that was a problem. My fellow passengers continue to amaze me.

 

[AM9]

The problem is less so people rushing for the train, but people missing the train and the staff then having difficulty to get them out of the station, preventing contractors booking on and carrying out work.

There is still the H&S issue of others not rushing. I've seen those who claim that they can judge their safety when running through a station, but it's tough luck on those who they push aside in their haste just because they hav allowed insufficient time to pass through the station safely. Would they be satisfied if the whole station was a walking only area, and breaking that rule resulted in ejection from the premises?

 

[Leisurefirst]

I've noticed this to be a common theme on the new Crossrail stations and last night for you was no exception. They close the stations and make them essentially 'exit only', instead they could simply keep the stations open and then once the last trains have departed, they close the station, announcing trains have all departed and to leave the station.
I have a feeling that this is simply due to the staff being mostly new and they've been trained in this way - a very similar situation happens in Hong Kong and has caught me out numerous times albeit not recently, they stop allowing people in 5 minutes before the last train.
If the last train is timetabled at 22:28 then I should be able to enter the station up until that time, and possibly for a couple of minutes after to account for any possible delays. If I miss the last train oh well, I'll go get a bus, but at least give me the opportunity to miss it, don't just tell me it's left when in reality it's still at the previous station.
The best thing to do is to make a complaint to TfL, show times of trains and the time you were denied access to the station. Outline what you have to us and that it meant you got home almost 2 hours later and also request compensation for the trouble, they've refunded me 3 trips now due to this.

Couldn't agree more, thanks!
Thank you also for the other many interesting replies and thoughts, too many to quote/reply here.

There is no one design of “TfL” screen and they all behave differently. The screens installed by TubeLines at the Jubilee, Northern, and Piccadilly line stations for instance display the trains on the ticket hall display right up until they come into the platform; it is only the time that drops off once it gets less than 2 minutes. The Metronet displays and also the more modern monitors drop the entire train at a time which seems locally configured for each station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Nov 2022 ==


Farringdon is still subject to minimum staffing levels and if there are not adequate LUL staff avaliable then either the whole, or part of, the station would have to close with trains non-stopping. It was originally expected that TLRailUK trains would have to non-stop Farringdon after 22.30 with Crossrail continuing to 00.30, however additional staff were found to keep both sections operating to 00.30.

It's even more frustrating to learn that the member of staff could not have just let myself and the many other "customers" known that we could walk to Farringdon instead.
Ironically it was a toss-up between the two stations both on my outward and return journeys.
I only chose Moorgate outward because IIRC Google Maps showed it to be one minute quicker and I am more familiar with the surrounding area.
I considered Farringdon returning (specifically the near Barbican entrance) because it would have given more an extra minute or two before the train but discounted it as I thought it was quicker to go back the way I had already come in the dark without having to consult my 'phone.

Can't see the problem, you turn up a couple of minutes before the last train on a strike day not sure what you expect also it's not as if you walk through the barriers and walk straight to the trains.

EL platforms are a slog from the gatelines.

All well and Good saying keep it open until the train departs then you've got people who missed it down on the platforms upset which is ripe for abusing staff.

Don't see why people can't plan better.

I'll just say that if you can't see the problem with people being faced with a two hour trek across London into the early hours when there were numerous young women amongst the people either turned away from the station or on the bus to Paddington then that's your call.
For the record, I planned my evening perfectly well.
I went to a sporting activity somewhere I had never been before, researched the walking route and got there early.
I was invited for drinks afterwards and went with the knowledge that I might well not get the last train and have to get buses back.
(Incidentally, when I got off at Moorgate I asked a different member of staff when the last Westbound was and after waiting about five minutes for them to radio and find out, they couldn't get through and "guessed" 10pm so it's not as though I didn't attempt to get the proper info).
As it turned out, I left in just enough time (so I thought) to get the last train after this time looking it up on NRE.
The rest is history and indeed life.
I'm big and ugly enough (and familiar with the area) to deal with it.
The other people I saw abandoned with no help (again, "walk to Farringdon, the trains are still stopping there" anybody?) and struggling with luggage along Euston Road after Midnight perhaps not.
Perhaps NRE should caveat last Elizabeth Line trains with the need to be at the station entrance five minutes before departure to avoid this situation so everybody knows where they stand, just a thought?

 

[Scott1]

Having read through this I have lost sympathy if I'm honest. Turning up 2 mins before departure is a foolish choice and I'm not surprised at the result. The "two hour trek" across London was of your own making.