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CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

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Mzzzs

Mzzzs

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The plan for the 197s on the MAN to Cardiff and beyond trains will be 5 cars however it could be 6 cars. That's a massive change from 3 or even 2-car trains.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Mzzzs said:
The plan for the 197s on the MAN to Cardiff and beyond trains will be 5 cars however it could be 6 cars. That's a massive change from 3 or even 2-car trains.
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Yeah, "there being enough of them" is the big gain from these units, not whether they're better than the 175s because I'd be very surprised if, when I try one, I think that. They'll be adequate like 195s are, but not amazing.
 
krus_aragon

krus_aragon

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Bletchleyite said:
Yeah, "there being enough of them" is the big gain from these units, not whether they're better than the 175s because I'd be very surprised if, when I try one, I think that. They'll be adequate like 195s are, but not amazing.
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An example of how "quantity has a quality all of its own" .
 
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warwickshire

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Jacob Porrett said:
14th November still penciled in for the Conwy Valley line for the first 197 introduction?
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Apparently 21st November according to previous op up thread. If it happens it does if it doesn't it doesn't. For a 197 considering weather and time of year certainly not in a rush either. Have ample time next year to sample one.
When days are lighter and more time to ride one. Probably not worth a rush just in case if anything goes wrong and weather wise we get stuck.
 
507020

507020

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Bletchleyite said:
Yeah, "there being enough of them" is the big gain from these units, not whether they're better than the 175s because I'd be very surprised if, when I try one, I think that. They'll be adequate like 195s are, but not amazing.
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But why on earth wouldn’t you retain the 175s in addition to this new order of 197s and have the capacity of both fleets? Its never made sense to me.
 
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craigybagel

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507020 said:
But why on earth wouldn’t you retain the 175s in addition to this new order of 197s and have the capacity of both fleets? Its never made sense to me.
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Because money isn't an infinite resource, and even without the 175s the TfW fleet is still seeing a massive increase.
 
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Runningaround

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Andrew*Debbie said:
For many the real upgrade will be getting a seat or at the very least getting on a train.
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Will they be running in sets of three or four with the 2 car units on The Cambrian then or are they getting the three car sets? If they are running as two like the 158's then the seating capacity will be reduced as the 197's have 22 fewer seats than the 158.
 
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craigybagel

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It's all irrelevant because the 175s are going. Even without them it's still a large increase in capacity across the franchise. There is no neither the need nor the space for them in the fleet.
 
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OrangeJuice

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Runningaround said:
Will they be running in sets of three or four with the 2 car units on The Cambrian then or are they getting the three car sets? If they are running as two like the 158's then the seating capacity will be reduced as the 197's have 22 fewer seats than the 158.
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I also have doubts about capacity increases on the Cambrian. Unless the fleet is big enough with ETCS for 4car on coast services 2 hourly with 2car on the Aberystwyth only services between Machynlleth and Shrewsbury/Birmingham then there won't be any space for growth let alone what's currently being used now. I was very surprised at how busy the 2car service was on a Sunday at the end of October from Machynlleth (no seats free and people standing) and there was no space beyond Shrewsbury despite the now hourly train service from Aberystwyth and it not being summer!
 
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Bletchleyite

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OrangeJuice said:
I also have doubts about capacity increases on the Cambrian. Unless the fleet is big enough with ETCS for 4car on coast services 2 hourly with 2car on the Aberystwyth only services between Machynlleth and Shrewsbury/Birmingham then there won't be any space for growth let alone what's currently being used now. I was very surprised at how busy the 2car service was on a Sunday at the end of October from Machynlleth (no seats free and people standing) and there was no space beyond Shrewsbury despite the now hourly train service from Aberystwyth and it not being summer!
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This has been my main concern all along, because only the 2-car sets will be ETCS fitted. However I'm sure I recall work is being done to allow 4 cars with SDO to Pwllheli? It's Pwllheli I think that will have a problem because a 197 has fewer seats than a 158. Aber is after all getting its service nearly doubled to hourly, so 2-car may actually be enough, though of course the increase could well cause growth meaning it's not enough.
 
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Pinus contorta

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Bletchleyite said:
This has been my main concern all along, because only the 2-car sets will be ETCS fitted. However I'm sure I recall work is being done to allow 4 cars with SDO to Pwllheli? It's Pwllheli I think that will have a problem because a 197 has fewer seats than a 158. Aber is after all getting its service nearly doubled to hourly, so 2-car may actually be enough, though of course the increase could well cause growth meaning it's not enough.
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Do you think the 1/3 and 2/3 door layout will improve things with the standing capacity egress etc vice the lower number of seats compared to a 158 (on the Pwllheli line)?
 
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craigybagel

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OrangeJuice said:
I also have doubts about capacity increases on the Cambrian. Unless the fleet is big enough with ETCS for 4car on coast services 2 hourly with 2car on the Aberystwyth only services between Machynlleth and Shrewsbury/Birmingham then there won't be any space for growth let alone what's currently being used now. I was very surprised at how busy the 2car service was on a Sunday at the end of October from Machynlleth (no seats free and people standing) and there was no space beyond Shrewsbury despite the now hourly train service from Aberystwyth and it not being summer!
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Bletchleyite said:
This has been my main concern all along, because only the 2-car sets will be ETCS fitted. However I'm sure I recall work is being done to allow 4 cars with SDO to Pwllheli? It's Pwllheli I think that will have a problem because a 197 has fewer seats than a 158. Aber is after all getting its service nearly doubled to hourly, so 2-car may actually be enough, though of course the increase could well cause growth meaning it's not enough.
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As I've pointed out many times, there's plenty of space for growth if it turns out TfW have got their maths wrong. Unlike with the current fleet, converting more 197s to be ETCS capable is a fairly simple process. If they need to shuffle units round to make more available for the Cambrian, it can be done.

The problems up till now with capacity on the Cambrian have been that there were no further 158s available for conversion, and that to convert any other DMU would require both a bespoke design, and the training up of Cambrian traincrew - not that there were any more DMUs available anyway. 197s have been designed from the outset to be compatible with ETCS, and once converted no further training is required.

My understanding with Pwllheli is that the work is indeed due to take place (if it hasn't already) to allow 4 car services to run. Bear in mind though that for most of the year and for most services a 2 car 197 will provide more than enough capacity. Tying yourself to 3 or 4 cars would just be a waste of diesel.
 
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6Gtraincrew

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anamyd said:
in what way?
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Well.....I don't know if I dare say the "S" word on here. It might start endless pages of moans up again. I shall risk it.....the seats on the 197's are sooo much better and even have armrests. The tables on the bay seats are much wider. The airline seats have better pulldown tables.
 
Jacob Porrett

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warwickshire said:
Apparently 21st November according to previous op up thread. If it happens it does if it doesn't it doesn't. For a 197 considering weather and time of year certainly not in a rush either. Have ample time next year to sample one.
When days are lighter and more time to ride one. Probably not worth a rush just in case if anything goes wrong and weather wise we get stuck.
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Ah right ok. I was just wondering that was all. Getting closer to being in service though which is good.
 
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6Gtraincrew said:
Well.....I don't know if I dare say the "S" word on here. It might start endless pages of moans up again. I shall risk it.....the seats on the 197's are sooo much better and even have armrests. The tables on the bay seats are much wider. The airline seats have better pulldown tables.
Click to expand...

I think there's nothing more Marmite than the Fainsa Sophia. Personally I prefer the FISA LEAN used on the 196. But I do think armrests are a bad omission given that these are medium distance units, and it's not like they've gone for the "wide aisle" option - the seats are spaced as if they had armrests, they just don't.

OTOH 197s will be for 4+ hour journeys. 196s max out at about an hour.

However one key way in which the 196 is better is window alignment. For units that will be used on (sometimes very) scenic routes this would be nice!

That said I've not used a 196 yet. I'll probably go on the hunt for one this weekend.
 
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6Gtraincrew

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Bletchleyite said:
I think there's nothing more Marmite than the Fainsa Sophia. Personally I prefer the FISA LEAN used on the 196. But I do think armrests are a bad omission given that these are medium distance units, and it's not like they've gone for the "wide aisle" option - the seats are spaced as if they had armrests, they just don't.
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The gangways on the 196 are wider than the 197. The seats on the 196 are right up against the side, so you feel like you can't sit in the middle of the seat as there is nowhere for your arm to go.

One thing I do quite like are the doors in-between the coaches. At least they will help with the noise if you have noisy neighbours in the next coach.
 
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L401CJF

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I was told last week that a 230 diagram is to begin with the December timetable change. They seem to be on track to get a 230 out, their performance is much better this time around.

Still a bit of uncertainty about 197 start dates, it is anticipated that the other Bidston diagram will be 197 operated from the same time as the 230 begins. (Or so I was told, we all know how things change!)
 
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