Are Class 700’s really that bad?

[Goldfish62]

The Wifi on a 700 cuts out where my Mobile does...

I mainly use it on SWR. They upgraded their WiFi earlier this year and it's generally excellent.

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Thing is;

2. Unlimited data tariffs mean this is less of an issue - they’re now very reasonably priced given how data intensive the latest smartphones are.

No way I can afford an unlimited data tariff.

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or put another way: “I’m happy to use my own data when out and about, but when I’m on a train I expect to have it free”

Yes, OK, I think most of us on here know that fulfilling customer expectations is an alien concept to the railways!

 

[ThameslinkUser]

4G is much better.

This statement isn't true for much of the Brighton Mainline.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This statement isn't true for much of the Brighton Mainline.

Train wifi is 4G. If you're on one of the worst networks you might find it not as good, though, e.g. if on the awful Three.

My general experience is that EE, while sometimes a bit expensive, is far and away the best network for coverage.

 

[AM9]

Yes, OK, I think most of us on here know that fulfilling customer expectations is an alien concept to the railways!

Expectations of free internet connections on trains with unmetered data usage are more about all other passengers paying for the excesses of the few. The ticket buys the right to travel, anything else will add to everybody's fares, or in some cases taxes..

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, OK, I think most of us on here know that fulfilling customer expectations is an alien concept to the railways!

My point is that for a significant majority of customers on services operated by Class 700s, it simply is not an ‘expectation’. I use these every day, know hundreds of people who use them regularly, and have never, ever heard of anyone bemoaning the lack of Wi-Fi on these trains. Except on this forum.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Train wifi is 4G.

With significantly larger receptors and more of them. Not a like-for-like comparison.

 

[jon0844]

Expectations of free internet connections on trains with unmetered data usage are more about all other passengers paying for the excesses of the few. The ticket buys the right to travel, anything else will add to everybody's fares, or in some cases taxes..

Three offers unlimited plans for businesses at £2.50 per SIM and I've heard EE can do deals that works out even cheaper. In the grand scheme of things, there's very little cost for providing mobile data to a train (or bus, coach, taxi etc). If the train also uses the same connection (as against a separate SIM) for the remote monitoring/updating then it's arguably free.

However some trains will have multiple SIMs and load balance from, say, EE to Vodafone to benefit from different coverage. Nevertheless the costs are pretty manageable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My point is that for a significant majority of customers on services operated by Class 700s, it simply is not an ‘expectation’. I use these every day, know hundreds of people who use them regularly, and have never, ever heard of anyone bemoaning the lack of Wi-Fi on these trains. Except on this forum.

That'll be because the majority of users are commuters, and most commuters are affluent and so tend to have decent data contracts. This Forum by contrast contains quite a lot of younger and older people who ride trains, these ones included, for fun, and those people may be in less of a position to be so equipped.

Personally I never use on-train wifi, it's always awful. I use my phone or iPad, both of which have EE data SIMs in (the only network I would recommend, as the others have vastly inferior coverage, particularly the execrable Three).

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With significantly larger receptors and more of them. Not a like-for-like comparison.

If you've got a decent phone with an EE SIM in it, you'll get coverage on most of the rail network. Possibly except in Voyagers due to the film on the windows, but Class 700s aren't Voyagers (though they do seem almost as Marmite! )

 

[ThameslinkUser]

coverage on most of the rail network.

However not the Brighton mainline as proven with my EE sim and iPhone 12. I don't understand why you're arguing, considering you're almost certainly not a more regular user of the route than I.

 

[nw1]

Can't help thinking it would have been better to develop a variant for the longer-distance services (such as Brighton to Bedford/Cambridge) which was more 444-like in terms of ambience.

 

[Bletchleyite]

However not the Brighton mainline as proven with my EE sim and iPhone 12. I don't understand why you're arguing, considering you're almost certainly not a more regular user of the route than I.

I'll be using the BML in mid Dec, if I remember I'll give it a go.

However, if there is a blackspot there rather than promoting on-train wifi, I'd be getting the rail operators to talk to the mobile operators to ask them if they'll improve the coverage! I suppose the area the BML runs through is quite hilly.

 

[jon0844]

Vodafone has had contiguous 4G coverage from London to Gatwick for some time, but south of there it can be patchy for all the networks.

The train has a better chance of getting a signal thanks to roof mounted antennas, but also needs to be equipped with the right modem to aggregate and access all bands. Band 20 (800Mhz) might be best for coverage, but also has limited spectrum that won't share very well (5MHz on EE and Three and 10MHz on Vodafone and O2).

5G upgrades will be good when more networks enable 700MHz for 5G, or 900MHz, which has the benefit of covering wider areas and still providing a good service.

Combining multiple bands will help further, but that will mean equipment upgrades for existing trains as I doubt any have 5G access right now.

EE and Vodafone are rolling out 5G quite rapidly and to wide areas.

3G is horrible and wherever possible I force my phone to use 4G and NR/5G only because a poorer signal for 4G will likely still work better than 3G, a flawed tech that is best forgotten as soon as possible. It's bad enough when you're still, let alone moving.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

I suppose the area the BML runs through is quite hilly.

It's also horrendous LBG - ECR. It's horrific connection is not exclusive to Surrey and Sussex.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's also horrendous LBG - ECR. It's horrific connection is not exclusive to Surrey and Sussex.

Interesting. I too use EE and an iPhone (13) and I have used the former Southern service from MK to East Croydon rather a lot, plus Thameslink to St P though while it was running the other way, and don't remember any sort of issue there.

 

[Kilopylae]

My point is that for a significant majority of customers on services operated by Class 700s, it simply is not an ‘expectation’. I use these every day, know hundreds of people who use them regularly, and have never, ever heard of anyone bemoaning the lack of Wi-Fi on these trains. Except on this forum.

I mean, it's essentially a Crossrail-type outer suburban metro train; London to, say, Redhill or Sutton is not really the same gravy as an intercity train so the expectations for comfort are lower.

 

[bramling]

My point is that for a significant majority of customers on services operated by Class 700s, it simply is not an ‘expectation’. I use these every day, know hundreds of people who use them regularly, and have never, ever heard of anyone bemoaning the lack of Wi-Fi on these trains. Except on this forum.

Plug sockets, or at least USB ones, would be more useful (IMO).

 

[AM9]

Plug sockets, or at least USB ones, would be more useful (IMO).

Not as useful as portable chargers rated according to the user's device usage.

 

[Mikey C]

My point is that for a significant majority of customers on services operated by Class 700s, it simply is not an ‘expectation’. I use these every day, know hundreds of people who use them regularly, and have never, ever heard of anyone bemoaning the lack of Wi-Fi on these trains. Except on this forum.

But why would you HEAR such comments.

If I'm by myself on the train, I don't moan aloud about the lack of WiFi, the ironing board seats, the lack of legroom, the intrusive heating ducts etc. Even if I might think it

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Can't help thinking it would have been better to develop a variant for the longer-distance services (such as Brighton to Bedford/Cambridge) which was more 444-like in terms of ambience.

Which is what they did with the 319s, where they split the fleet to have a longer distance "Thameslink Cityflier" with lower density seating, and the "Thameslink CityMetro" for the shorter routes.

 

[the sniper]

My general experience is that EE, while sometimes a bit expensive, is far and away the best network for coverage.

Agreed.

Tbh, it's only reading these forums that reminds that people actually still readily wish to use free public wifi.

 

[Bald Rick]

But why would you HEAR such comments.

If I'm by myself on the train, I don't moan aloud about the lack of WiFi, the ironing board seats, the lack of legroom, the intrusive heating ducts etc. Even if I might think it

As I said, I know hundreds of people who use them. In an average week I field about 10 questions or comments from them about train times / routeing / engineering works / fares / why does this train do that / can I sit in first class / why does the train wait outside St Pancras / why do some drivers make announcements and some don’t / why are some toilets out of use / what’s that noise / which platform / why is my train late / why can’t you run over trespassers / etc etc.

But never - why is there no Wi-Fi?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

But never - why is there no Wi-Fi?

Confirmation bias.

 

[43066]

why can’t you run over trespassers

I wonder that myself sometimes .

 

[Invincible]

As I said, I know hundreds of people who use them. In an average week I field about 10 questions or comments from them about train times / routeing / engineering works / fares / why does this train do that / can I sit in first class / why does the train wait outside St Pancras / why do some drivers make announcements and some don’t / why are some toilets out of use / what’s that noise / which platform / why is my train late / why can’t you run over trespassers / etc etc.

But never - why is there no Wi-Fi?

So it's probably only when trains run though some lower population areas of Bedford or Sussex where there are 4G "not spots" to service the onboard WiFi?. And not worth the cost of extra repeaters if eventually there will be a 5G rollout.

 

[Bald Rick]

Confirmation bias.

How, exactly?

 

[ThameslinkUser]

How, exactly?

Have you actually asked your hundreds of friends about the experience of using 700s, or have you been passive in such complaints? If the latter, then your alleged lack of complaints is making you think there are zero complaints.

 

[Bald Rick]

Have you actually asked your hundreds of friends about the experience of using 700s, or have you been passive in such complaints? If the latter, then your alleged lack of complaints is making you think there are zero complaints.

That’s not my understanding of confirmation bias. (and they’re not all friends!)

I’m not saying there are zero complaints about it - as there seem to be quite a few on this page. What I am saying is that to the ordinary ‘non rail enthusiast’ Class 700 punter - of which I know many - they are not mentioning it to me. But they are mentioning all manner of other things, many of which are frankly trivial. If lack of Wi-Fi was an issue, then I’m sure someone would have mentioned it to me by now after 6 years.

But I am now going to make a point of asking them when I see them. Survey so far = 100% “no issue”

 

[ThameslinkUser]

I’m not saying there are zero complaints about it - as there seem to be quite a few on this page. What I am saying is that to the ordinary ‘non rail enthusiast’ Class 700 punter - of which I know many - they are not mentioning it to me. But they are mentioning all manner of other things, many of which are frankly trivial. If lack of Wi-Fi was an issue, then I’m sure someone would have mentioned it to me by now after 6 years.

From the complaints I constantly hear from my fellow commuters (usually doing longer distance such as Littlehampton / Brighton to the City) is it is infact a common grievance for those using laptops when they get a unit with no WiFi. However, of course, given most people are unable to use laptops at all due to no tables and plugs, this complaint often gets hidden beneath the others so I can understand why it is rarely brought up.

 

[dastocks]

My point is that for a significant majority of customers on services operated by Class 700s, it simply is not an ‘expectation’. I use these every day, know hundreds of people who use them regularly, and have never, ever heard of anyone bemoaning the lack of Wi-Fi on these trains. Except on this forum.

For anyone who (like me) suffered ~30 years of class 319s on the route the 700s are a slightly less disappointing proposition:

I still remember transferring from my usual London Bridge slammer to the shiny new class 319 Thameslink train that rolled up on an adjacent platform at East Croydon on the first day of the new service (I worked near Moorgate at the time). When I saw what was available in terms of the passenger accommodation inside the train I wondered why I had bothered.

In later years Connex did a conversion on 7 of the 319s for Brighton Express services which demonstrated how the entire class should have been built in the first place.

Similarly, the declassified first class at the back of a 700 is actually rather good and it's exactly where you want to be if you're heading for the Lizzie Line at Farringdon (it doesn't work so well in the other direction). I really see no reason why the whole train can't be like this.

Moving specifically to the question of wi-fi: I think all the Southern Electrostars and even Class 313s have had serviceable wi-fi for many years so it should have been part of the Class 700 specification. However, the *Thameslink* customers might not expect it because the service has always delivered a poor standard of facilities, accommodation and passenger comfort - with the possible exception of the short period when some services used Electrostars.

 

[jon0844]

Commuters don't generally expect to work on a tube train or the Elizabeth Line (or likely on a bus either), and most of a 700 isn't a great work environment even with Wi-Fi - but at least there's first class that does offer a good option that is quite exceptional.

If you can get in at the back, happy days, and otherwise if you need to work on your trip to work or home that's an actual benefit of paying for first class is it not?

I find that most people travelling in the peak are on their phone, or using a phone/tablet/laptop to watch a movie, not working. A lot of people are quite happy to enjoy some 'me time' before work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Similarly, the declassified first class at the back of a 700 is actually rather good and it's exactly where you want to be if you're heading for the Lizzie Line at Farringdon (it doesn't work so well in the other direction). I really see no reason why the whole train can't be like this.

The reason it's not is because the narrow Standard seats provide better accessibility by way of a wider aisle.

However, I've now experienced both a 700 and a Northern 195 crush-loaded on similar stopping services. The 195 has armrests and is physically narrower too, but has the door standbacks. My observation from this was that the narrow seats made relatively little difference to the ability to deal with crowds, and that the standbacks made much more of a difference. Indeed, adding armrests made a positive difference as you wouldn't keep whacking people walking down the aisle. Thus, I'd advocate, when they're refurbished, that armrests should be added to the 700s, narrowing the aisle slightly. I'd stick with a heavily tapered design of seat, though, as that does provide a bit of extra aisle width at large-standing-adult-backside-height, so I wouldn't put the Sophias (ugh!) throughout even if I liked them. I do think the ironing board is the right choice of seat for these units, I'd just use the version Northern used with armrests and contoured base.