Unsafe chaos at East Croydon 8th November

[Ivor]

Yesterday I arrived about 8am at East Croydon station to find queues of commuters stretching to the streets approaching from the side of the station & the front where the trams stop.

Now I’m not a stranger to this station but I could not believe the chaos & I would say it was absolutely chaotic re the volume of people & the slight ‘crush’ towards the main Gateline, a few ladies I noticed were in distress further along the crowd.

The Gateline was not opened to relieve the situation & obviously things were not helped with reduced trains, lack of train crew including some trains sitting there without a driver, cancellations & delays (the fallout of the cancelled strikes)

Eventually reaching the platforms especially London bound you could not see the platforms for people with announcements for London bound saying “due to heavily loaded carriages on the the train arriving you won’t be able to board” although with that said people were attempting to board with ensuing loud arguments.

Some of us needed to go to another platform as there was a platform change (Sussex bound) & struggling back up the wide walkway (some of you may know it) it was impossible to get past the volumes of people at the top to go to any other platform as you also had people leaving the station building up a back log as the concourse isn’t huge.

Having worked on the railway (not TOC employed) at many stations including mainline for five years until earlier this year plus I’ve been a commuter for decades I’ve never seen anything like it.

I really thought the overall situation was not just chaotic but dangerous, even dispatchers were struggling to find their spot.

My questions to those here that know far more than myself are…..why was the Gateline not opened to relieve the problem?

And at that point why wasn’t the station ‘closed’ to alleviate the situation temporarily & introduce ‘crowd control’ as for example at Wembley Park underground after a Cup Final if required & I’ve seen happen at Victoria Station when the crowds try to access the underground when it can’t cope with the volumes?

I assume ‘management’ should have got proactive as a matter of urgency?

 

[zwk500]

My questions to those here that know far more than myself are…..why was the Gateline not opened to relieve the problem?

And at that point why wasn’t the station ‘closed’ to alleviate the situation temporarily & introduce ‘crowd control’ as for example at Wembley Park underground after a Cup Final if required & I’ve seen happen at Victoria Station when the crowds try to access the underground when it can’t cope with the volumes?

If the station was as crowded as you describe, surely opening the gateline would have been the worst thing you could do as everybody would pile onto the ramps? Closing the station, or at least making it exit-only would seem to have been the only other option, but then what would the crowd have done?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Very often London Underground reduces gateline throughput by closing gates to manage levels of crowding inside stations. I'd agree that outside is better than inside - it only takes Hillsborough to understand why inside is bad (and a railway would be worse).

 

[Ivor]

If the station was as crowded as you describe, surely opening the gateline would have been the worst thing you could do as everybody would pile onto the ramps? Closing the station, or at least making it exit-only would seem to have been the only other option, but then what would the crowd have done?

I’m afraid in my mind the crowd would have to ‘mill around’ outside & along the roads as better that than a track fatality as believe me London bound platforms especially platform 3 it would have taken very little for that to happen.

I take on board your point (no pun intended) but ‘better safe than sorry’ & with some sort of crowd control it would not have been a huge inconvenience to lower the station numbers.

Very often London Underground reduces gateline throughput by closing gates to manage levels of crowding inside stations. I'd agree that outside is better than inside - it only takes Hillsborough to understand why inside is bad (and a railway would be worse).

Yes underground stations seem to handle this well.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Very often London Underground reduces gateline throughput by closing gates to manage levels of crowding inside stations.

Have had that "experience" at London Victoria Underground station many a time in the past. Was often quicker to walk to St. James's Park and continue my journey from there.

 

[zwk500]

I take on board your point (no pun intended) but ‘better safe than sorry’ & with some sort of crowd control it would not have been a huge inconvenience to lower the station numbers.

Yes underground stations seem to handle this well.

I agree with this - the better strategy would have been to manage the flow onto the platforms and try and redirect crowds where possible (e.g. to West Croydon for London Bridge, or South Croydon for the Oxted Lines). Closing the station completely would have created a dangerous situation at the tram stop. Although were there enough staff to make a difference? Commuters heading home are some of the most unyielding people you will ever meet, and it would need a firm hand to get some sort of order established.
Having said this, I've been at MK Central after a fatality caused an all-line block and staff had been very proactive in establishing separate queues for north/southbound and it was all managed quite well. Once a queue is established, people generally work out what's happening. It's when there's a scrum everybody just piles in.

 

[Segedunum]

Having been left in charge of a sub-surface station in the 'no (later very limited) trains, lots of passengers' situation, the first thing I did was put all gates on exit. I'd rather have people spilling out onto the street than near platform edges or stuck at the bottom of escalators. People generally appreciated this being done to save them a pointless trip down to the platforms.

It didn't stop one charming gent smashing through the gates then coming back up and smashing back out effing and blinding about the lack of trains, of course.

As said above, when you just have an absolute free-for-all in getting onto the platform, that's when accidents happen.

 

[RJ]

There isn’t really anywhere to manage crowds outside the station is there?

 

[Coolzac]

Just as a side note - I know that the first trains were not particularly well managed in terms of carriages- for example the first train from Littlehampton to Victoria was 8 carriages. Given that trains were starting late, it was so obviously going to be busy, so why not put on 12 carriages? I'm sure they could have found an extra set somewhere, especially given the fact that a lot of normal services hadn't been running.

 

[ATS3]

Yesterday I arrived about 8am at East Croydon station to find queues of commuters stretching to the streets approaching from the side of the station & the front where the trams stop.

Now I’m not a stranger to this station but I could not believe the chaos & I would say it was absolutely chaotic re the volume of people & the slight ‘crush’ towards the main Gateline, a few ladies I noticed were in distress further along the crowd.

The Gateline was not opened to relieve the situation & obviously things were not helped with reduced trains, lack of train crew including some trains sitting there without a driver, cancellations & delays (the fallout of the cancelled strikes)

Eventually reaching the platforms especially London bound you could not see the platforms for people with announcements for London bound saying “due to heavily loaded carriages on the the train arriving you won’t be able to board” although with that said people were attempting to board with ensuing loud arguments.

Some of us needed to go to another platform as there was a platform change (Sussex bound) & struggling back up the wide walkway (some of you may know it) it was impossible to get past the volumes of people at the top to go to any other platform as you also had people leaving the station building up a back log as the concourse isn’t huge.

Having worked on the railway (not TOC employed) at many stations including mainline for five years until earlier this year plus I’ve been a commuter for decades I’ve never seen anything like it.

I really thought the overall situation was not just chaotic but dangerous, even dispatchers were struggling to find their spot.

My questions to those here that know far more than myself are…..why was the Gateline not opened to relieve the problem?

And at that point why wasn’t the station ‘closed’ to alleviate the situation temporarily & introduce ‘crowd control’ as for example at Wembley Park underground after a Cup Final if required & I’ve seen happen at Victoria Station when the crowds try to access the underground when it can’t cope with the volumes?

I assume ‘management’ should have got proactive as a matter of urgency?

Sorry if this question seems dumb, but can I ask what were staff doing to try and fix the problem?

 

[Ivor]

Having been left in charge of a sub-surface station in the 'no (later very limited) trains, lots of passengers' situation, the first thing I did was put all gates on exit. I'd rather have people spilling out onto the street than near platform edges or stuck at the bottom of escalators. People generally appreciated this being done to save them a pointless trip down to the platforms.

It didn't stop one charming gent smashing through the gates then coming back up and smashing back out effing and blinding about the lack of trains, of course.

As said above, when you just have an absolute free-for-all in getting onto the platform, that's when accidents happen.

Yes at one station I worked Gateline we were encouraged to use common sense re opening the gates if we saw a pending ‘safety issue’ at least then we didn’t go into panic mode trying to get permission from a supervisor or manager at that moment.

Sorry if this question seems dumb, but can I ask what were staff doing to try and fix the problem?

Other than announcements re the packed trains from what I saw nothing was happening re staff helping just holding their positions, if anything happened afterwards I’ve no idea, I was there 50 minutes before getting on a train to get out of it & that train was 1 of 3 to get back instead of just 1

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Nov 2022 ==

There isn’t really anywhere to manage crowds outside the station is there?

Narrow paving at front but few steps to right wide road & pavement & main road & pavement to town centre. To left of station large road area where taxis pull in.

 

[McDontrains]

Looks like chaos continued into the evening rush with cancellations and delays on London Bridge services. East Croydon is bad enough in the normal peak!

 

[Ivor]

Looks like chaos continued into the evening rush with cancellations and delays on London Bridge services. East Croydon is bad enough in the normal peak!

The Southern web site states they were planning to operate a normal service today & tomorrow, no jokes please re their ‘normal service’

Looking on line today routes don’t seem to have been anywhere near as bad.

I wouldn’t fancy experiencing again what happened yesterday that’s for sure.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

It's a nightmare outside East Croydon at the best of times as the space between the exits and the tram stop is narrow enough and people just hang around and block everything up without moving down or up the pavement/tram stop platform.

Also, from memory, it's not easy or quick to walk from East to South Croydon and regular commuters won't have the patience either. Then there's the issue of actually getting on a southbound train at South Croydon when everyone has piled on at East Croydon....

 

[Ivor]

Also, from memory, it's not easy or quick to walk from East to South Croydon and regular commuters won't have the patience either. Then there's the issue of actually getting on a southbound train at South Croydon when everyone has piled on at East Croydon....

It’s a good 20-25 minute brisk walk.

 

[RJ]

This thread reminds of of when a friend from North London came to visit Croydon and was left traumatised by the experience. There was disruption and people everywhere. He said a train was announced which resulted in a “stampede” from the concourse.

Admittedly I’ve never seen it that bad myself, normally when I pass through it seems like they run a tight ship there.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Hang on we keep getting told there aren't that many commuters anymore.....

 

[AlbertBeale]

Isn't there a completely different entrance/exit up the side of East Croydon station now, accessing the platforms via an overbridge rather than the ramp from the front entrance? In which case, maybe institute a one-way system in that sort of emergency, with people outside the station asked to queue down the road at the side, towards the other entrance, and that entrance "policed" to only allow people in slowly as space became available on the platforms. Meanwhile, people leaving the station via the ramps to the main entrance/exit would have a clear one-way out to avoid clashing with those coming in.

 

[Kilopylae]

As said above, when you just have an absolute free-for-all in getting onto the platform, that's when accidents happen.

Of course, at East Croydon there's the added complication of the tram station, wherein too much overspill outside the rail station might push people into the path of a moving tram. There probably ought to be a crowd control space; maybe the Box Park could volunteer their queues? (as I doubt they're too busy at circa six PM).

It’s a good 20-25 minute brisk walk.

Though perhaps longer in a surge of commuters, plus the 'sunk cost' of losing one's space in the queue and having to start again at getting down to the platforms.

 

[zwk500]

Of course, at East Croydon there's the added complication of the tram station, wherein too much overspill outside the rail station might push people into the path of a moving tram. There probably ought to be a crowd control space; maybe the Box Park could volunteer their queues? (as I doubt they're too busy at circa six PM).

At dinner time I'd be surprised it the box park was willing to host people queuing for the train, instead of eating at their outlets.

Though perhaps longer in a surge of commuters, plus the 'sunk cost' of losing one's space in the queue and having to start again at getting down to the platforms.

You could avoid that sunk cost by advertising for passengers to use alternative stations on NRE and twitter etc.

 

[JonathanH]

Hang on we keep getting told there aren't that many commuters anymore.....

There aren't, relatively speaking. When trains are running as scheduled, they leave East Croydon with seats vacant.
Concentrating those who do remain on a single train three hours after services normally start needs special management.

 

[Ivor]

Hang on we keep getting told there aren't that many commuters anymore.....

We do, to me it seems we are back to pre pandemic levels on main routes in the London/S.East region but official figures don’t lie or so we are led to believe.

Isn't there a completely different entrance/exit up the side of East Croydon station now, accessing the platforms via an overbridge rather than the ramp from the front entrance? In which case, maybe institute a one-way system in that sort of emergency, with people outside the station asked to queue down the road at the side, towards the other entrance, and that entrance "policed" to only allow people in slowly as space became available on the platforms. Meanwhile, people leaving the station via the ramps to the main entrance/exit would have a clear one-way out to avoid clashing with those coming in.

There you go trying to be sensible

Yes from Ruskin Square side but it’s not unusual to be closed off & I’ve no idea why, couldn’t tell on the day in question as the walkway was a sea of bodies.

EC ran a one way system during the pandemic with lower footfall so it’s all a bit baffling.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Just as a side note - I know that the first trains were not particularly well managed in terms of carriages- for example the first train from Littlehampton to Victoria was 8 carriages. Given that trains were starting late, it was so obviously going to be busy, so why not put on 12 carriages? I'm sure they could have found an extra set somewhere, especially given the fact that a lot of normal services hadn't been running.

Extra carriages from where? There aren't spare carriages sitting around anywhere. If you make one train longer, you're making another train shorter, or cancelling them. Then its all got to be arranged, a driver needs to do the shunting.

 

[JonathanH]

We do, to me it seems we are back to pre pandemic levels on main routes in the London/S.East region but official figures don’t lie or so we are led to believe.

Fast trains would be arriving at places like East Croydon with all seats taken and leaving with a good number of people standing, not leaving with seats to spare.

There are fewer services running on many routes than there were pre-pandemic which might explain why loadings seem as high as before.

 

[ctrh136]

I think the first train at East Croydon wasn't until 0751 and that probably came in full.

The first Oxted line trains were extremely busy. I did see that the second train from East Grinstead skipped out Riddlesdown and Sanderstead because of overcrowding.

 

[Ivor]

I think the first train at East Croydon wasn't until 0751 and that probably came in full.

The first Oxted line trains were extremely busy. I did see that the second train from East Grinstead skipped out Riddlesdown and Sanderstead because of overcrowding.

Around 8:15 there was an Eastbourne train sitting there approx two thirds full for about 25 minutes it had an OBS but no driver.

Bearing in mind alongside delays, cancellations it was no wonder that passenger numbers were growing by the minute rather than decreasing had there been a half decent service a couple of days on from the original cancelled strike date.

Yes I’m aware of planning etc has to be reinstated but I see no good reason for management not to jump into action to protect the safety of the public.

When I arrived on Sunday 6th the Ruskin Square Gateline was closed, I won’t say it was mad busy but it was busy, it was lunchtime. I know this exit is closed late evening normally but middle of the day? Not for the first time.

Often Ruskin Square exit tickets are refused when trying to get out but there is no Gateline staff manning that exit to help, it’s not far to main Gateline to leave via staff but I’ve said before I’m no stranger to this station so I think this was a culmination of no crowd control.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Nov 2022 ==

I’ve found some additional info in print, wasn’t aware of this site, sorry not very good posting specific links but this site takes you to it.

www.eastlondonlines.co.uk
(& scroll down)

Apologies being a Golden oldie my IT skills are putting it mildly…..rubbish!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Nov 2022 ==

EC Nov 8th

 

[GodAtum]

As a regular commuter at East Croydon this happens EVERY time around strikes. I tend to walk to the other entrance which is empty so can get onto the platforms without queuing at the main gateline.

 

[Ivor]

As a regular commuter at East Croydon this happens EVERY time around strikes. I tend to walk to the other entrance which is empty so can get onto the platforms without queuing at the main gateline.

As severe as this?

I use it a lot but never on strike days until earlier this week

 

[GodAtum]

As severe as this?

I use it a lot but never on strike days until earlier this week

After last strike it was the same. Also happens if there’s severe disruption like a line closure.

 

[TPO]

Very often London Underground reduces gateline throughput by closing gates to manage levels of crowding inside stations. I'd agree that outside is better than inside - it only takes Hillsborough to understand why inside is bad (and a railway would be worse).

Have had that "experience" at London Victoria Underground station many a time in the past. Was often quicker to walk to St. James's Park and continue my journey from there.

Having been left in charge of a sub-surface station in the 'no (later very limited) trains, lots of passengers' situation, the first thing I did was put all gates on exit. I'd rather have people spilling out onto the street than near platform edges or stuck at the bottom of escalators. People generally appreciated this being done to save them a pointless trip down to the platforms.

It didn't stop one charming gent smashing through the gates then coming back up and smashing back out effing and blinding about the lack of trains, of course.

As said above, when you just have an absolute free-for-all in getting onto the platform, that's when accidents happen.

Yeah, from what I have seen London Underground manage the issue very well. Bakerloo at Paddington is the one I have experience of where gates are closed to prevent crush on the platforms. At Paddington, they hold people at the top of the steps from the national rail concourse to the Underground station using pull-out barriers or by closing the lattice gates at street level, rather than at the gateline. In those days they regularly got big flows when a few long-distance trains came in at once in the morning peak, although I suspect the Elizabeth line has relieved this now.

On such a day at Paddington (in the pre-COVID times), when I finally got down to the Bakerloo platforms I understood the importance of holding crowds outside the concourse. The platform was at least 3-deep all along it's length. First train in- first row got on. Next train in- next row. Then I was in the front row and it was scary being stood there on the front edge of the platform with so many people behind as the next train came in. However this was experienced London commutors who were used to this happening on a regular (at least weekly if not daily) basis, so it was very orderly as they knew the routine and no-one behind pushed anyone.

TPO