Signs with red slashes counting down 3/2/1 to something?

[robintw]

I've been watching a Drivers Eye view video, and saw the following sign:



It is part of a series of three signs showing three slashes, two slashes and then one slash - like countdown signs when exiting a motorway. In this case they are coming up to a level crossing - but why would it need countdown signs? None of the other level crossings on the route have had countdowns like this.

This is at Newland crossing, between Worcester and Malvern Link, as seen in

.

 

[baz962]

Usually countdown to a signal. When I try to enlarge the picture it gets grainy , so I can't see if there is a signal or not.

 

[martin2345uk]

Looks like there's a signal on the right hand side, maybe that's why it warrants countdown markers?

 

[Efini92]

I've been watching a Drivers Eye view video, and saw the following sign:

View attachment 123424

It is part of a series of three signs showing three slashes, two slashes and then one slash - like countdown signs when exiting a motorway. In this case they are coming up to a level crossing - but why would it need countdown signs? None of the other level crossings on the route have had countdowns like this.

This is at Newland crossing, between Worcester and Malvern Link, as seen in

.

They normally stick them up when the signal has a history of being passed at danger.

 

[hexagon789]

They are SPAD mitigation countdown markers to a signal. Used where signals have had a traditionally high SPAD rate or risk.

The original design appeared in 1956 on the approach to Newark, based on Belgian practice.

The current design dates from 1988 but there have been several intermediate variations, such as on the Scottish Region.

 

[robintw]

Interesting, thanks everyone.

I wonder why that signal has had a particularly high SPAD rate - I haven't seen these countdowns anywhere else on this route.

 

[Darandio]

Interesting, thanks everyone.

I wonder why that signal has had a particularly high SPAD rate - I haven't seen these countdowns anywhere else on this route.

Presumably because it's on the offside.

 

[Jimini]

There used to be these on the down main approach to Reading from Paddington, prior to the remodelling. Going back a bit now!

 

[Efini92]

Interesting, thanks everyone.

I wonder why that signal has had a particularly high SPAD rate - I haven't seen these countdowns anywhere else on this route.

If I had to guess I’d say it’s because it’s semaphore and on the opposite side of the running line.

 

[hexagon789]

Interesting, thanks everyone.

I wonder why that signal has had a particularly high SPAD rate - I haven't seen these countdowns anywhere else on this route.

Likely because it's on right-hand side instead of the more conventional left.

Watching the video, I was keeping careful eye on the markers and after the '1' was looking for the signal - I nearly missed it with it being on the right!

Yes, I have no route knowledge which would undoubtedly help, but I was still looking for the signal and nearly missed it, so I think those markers are warranted there!

 

[Taunton]

If I had to guess I’d say it’s because it’s semaphore and on the opposite side of the running line.

Interesting, the GWR, and successors, did drive their locomotives from the right-hand side (as did several other major companies, it wasn't just a GWR thing), and placed signals on the right-hand side of the line. However, the last such locomotive to pass here was the last Western Region steam loco, in 1965. Here we are nearly 60 years later, all ever since driven from the left side, and the signal has never been relocated.

The USA has a specific law that signals must be on the driver's side, the right in their case, normally with right hand running, opposite to here. There are a few sections where for various reasons they run on the left, the BNSF main line across Arizona is one, and all signals there have to be on gantries to put them just on the drivers' right.

 

[XAM2175]

They are SPAD mitigation countdown markers to a signal. Used where signals have had a traditionally high SPAD rate or risk.

The original design appeared in 1956 on the approach to Newark, based on Belgian practice.

The current design dates from 1988 but there have been several intermediate variations, such as on the Scottish Region.

Watching the video, I was keeping careful eye on the markers and after the '1' was looking for the signal - I nearly missed it with it being on the right!

Yes, I have no route knowledge which would undoubtedly help, but I was still looking for the signal and nearly missed it, so I think those markers are warranted there!

Interestingly on both of these points there are similar applications in Germany:

Supplemental Signals

The Ne3 count-down markers are posted before every distant signal, and the Ne4 chequerboard sign is posted in the "ordinary" place where the signal should be whenever the signal is actually placed somewhere irregular.

 

[hexagon789]

Interestingly on both of these points there are similar applications in Germany:

Supplemental Signals

The Ne3 count-down markers are posted before every distant signal, and the Ne4 chequerboard sign is posted in the "ordinary" place where the signal should be whenever the signal is actually placed somewhere irregular.

I suppose in Germany though, with speed-based signalling, it is essentially expected that signals are placed consistently - I understand that theoretically any driver could drive any line in Germany because the signs and signals provide all the information required.

In the UK with our route-based signalling, such eccentricities simply have to be learned by drivers but of course everyone can be fallible at times, so drawing attention to the unconventionally (though by no means historically completely rare) placed signals with the countdown markers is probably a good idea.

(The first application in Scotland was actually at Rutherglen, a high incidence of SPADs caused by drivers misjudging braking distance on approach to a certain signal, not because of the signal being unusually placed or having poor sighting. So it's not always down to signal placement.)

 

[30907]

A supplementary factor here may be that shortly before (through Foregate St to Henwick) there are parallel single lines and a driver might unconsciously think the same applied here.

BTW offside semaphores were very common on the GW, though not universal, and I suspect (without checking) that there are others on the route.

 

[hexagon789]

A supplementary factor here may be that shortly before (through Foregate St to Henwick) there are parallel single lines and a driver might unconsciously think the same applied here.

BTW offside semaphores were very common on the GW, though not universal, and I suspect (without checking) that there are others on the route.

There was one sited 'wrong-side' approaching Oulton Broad North, coming from Lowestoft, just before the sharp left-hander into the station.

The curve effectively put the signal straight ahead of the driver though, so perhaps explains lack of countdown markers there.

 

[edwin_m]

Not really clear why this one should be on the right - there's no obvious sight blocker on the left, or at least they wouldn't have been as that mast would have gone somewhere else if the signal had been there first.

 

[XAM2175]

I suppose in Germany though, with speed-based signalling, it is essentially expected that signals are placed consistently - I understand that theoretically any driver could drive any line in Germany because the signs and signals provide all the information required.

In the UK with our route-based signalling, such eccentricities simply have to be learned by drivers but of course everyone can be fallible at times, so drawing attention to the unconventionally (though by no means historically completely rare) placed signals with the countdown markers is probably a good idea.

Well, German blocks can be of inconsistent lengths, as in Britain, but yes the level of route signage is very much intended to reduce dependency on rote knowledge. Hence these countdown markers on the approach to every distant signal, and a consistent distance between the distant and the main signal, and additional indications where things diverge from the norms.

Without wanting to diverge too far from the topic here, it's an approach that Britain has studiously avoided for a long time but increasingly seems to be trying to emulate badly and inconsistently.

 

[Taunton]

A supplementary factor here may be that shortly before (through Foregate St to Henwick) there are parallel single lines and a driver might unconsciously think the same applied here.

BTW offside semaphores were very common on the GW, though not universal, and I suspect (without checking) that there are others on the route.

Actually you can see another one in the Youtube icon in the original post, before you even open it, with the departure signals from the Worcester platform on the right of the line.

On the Foregate Street parallel single lines the signals for the two lines are side-by-side, presumably to avoid confusion.

 

[midland1]

Great Western Railway locos were always driven from the righthand side. They never moved over to the left like many other railways ie LNER. Flying Scotsman was first built as a righthand drive loco.

 

[pdeaves]

The signs appear on https://railsigns.uk/sect8page2.html if you want to read a bit more about them; some variants on https://railsigns.uk/sect8page5.html and https://railsigns.uk/sect8page6.html. If you ever see yellow ones, they are for sandite application (https://railsigns.uk/sect29page1.html). Some labelled FTAP are explained on https://railsigns.uk/sect29page2.html.

In looking those up I am surprised how many different types and meanings there are for 'countdown' markers!

 

[12LDA28C]

You'll often see these countdown markers on the approach to signals that are 'hidden' round a curve or otherwise poorly sighted - a rather cheaper option than relocating the signal.

 

[Rescars]

Presumably because it's on the offside.

I think this is a home signal guarding a level crossing. Level crossing + offside signal = double hazard?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2022 ==

Interesting, the GWR, and successors, did drive their locomotives from the right-hand side (as did several other major companies, it wasn't just a GWR thing), and placed signals on the right-hand side of the line. However, the last such locomotive to pass here was the last Western Region steam loco, in 1965. Here we are nearly 60 years later, all ever since driven from the left side, and the signal has never been relocated.

The USA has a specific law that signals must be on the driver's side, the right in their case, normally with right hand running, opposite to here. There are a few sections where for various reasons they run on the left, the BNSF main line across Arizona is one, and all signals there have to be on gantries to put them just on the drivers' right.

Handy for ex-GWR locos hauling steam specials though!

 

[ac6000cw]

The USA has a specific law that signals must be on the driver's side, the right in their case, normally with right hand running, opposite to here. There are a few sections where for various reasons they run on the left, the BNSF main line across Arizona is one, and all signals there have to be on gantries to put them just on the drivers' right.

I've seen plenty of examples in the USA where signal heads for each direction (of a bi-directional line) are mounted on opposite sides of a single post, so they can only be on the driver's side in one direction - Union Pacific in particular seems to like that arrangement.

In the photo below there are two bi-directional tracks, with back-to-back headed signals on the outer sides of the tracks (it's at Indio, CA on the UP 'Sunset Route'):


An example of a signal on the 'wrong' side of the left-most main track (all three tracks are bi-directional, on BNSF at Fullerton, CA):


On the other side of the coin, this is a typical modern BNSF gantry (on Cajon Pass, CA) - the heads for each direction are actually off-centre (to the right) as they should be:

 

[trundlewagon]

think this is a home signal guarding a level crossing. Level crossing + offside signal = double hazard

And it's positioned coming out of a right hand bend where you see the next signal (NE5) before you see that one (NE4)!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You'll often see these countdown markers on the approach to signals that are 'hidden' round a curve or otherwise poorly sighted - a rather cheaper option than relocating the signal.

I assume that's the reason for the countdown markers between Batley and Dewsbury. Probably also helps drivers to remind themselves if they're scheduled to stop at Dewsbury or not.

 

[Efini92]

I assume that's the reason for the countdown markers between Batley and Dewsbury. Probably also helps drivers to remind themselves if they're scheduled to stop at Dewsbury or not.

It’s been passed a few times that signal. The steep gradient and bend aren’t forgiving if you’ve come into batley on a yellow and forgot about the red.