CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Philip]

That sounds a little personal, I think more likely is that now CAF have taken over the depot from Alstom and seeing as the nearest depot being run by them is Longsight that's where they go now. Its just business.

It does show that an Alstom depot is needed as a central location for whichever routes they are used on after TfW hand them back.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It does show that an Alstom depot is needed as a central location for whichever routes they are used on after TfW hand them back.

It rather depends on how much Alstom 175 expertise moved to Longsight for the fleet's future maintenance.
Until (if) they are taken on by another TOC they will be an unloved model long term.

 

[Bikeman78]

That sounds a little personal, I think more likely is that now CAF have taken over the depot from Alstom and seeing as the nearest depot being run by them is Longsight that's where they go now. Its just business.

It's not far from the truth though. The reliability and availability of the 175s has fallen off a cliff since CAF took over. The 175s are pretty good trains if they are given the attention they need. For years they were the most reliable trains in the ATW fleet by a wide margin. I won't be surprised if the 150s are the best fleet this year. They have been creeping up year on year whilst the 175s have been falling.

As for the 197s, once they start, hopefully the roll out will be quite fast. Most of the crew up north have been trained so there are a lot of diagrams they could take over in theory if the sets are available.

 

[Bob Price]

Another 6 car test today on the North Wales line with 015 on the back. Seeing numbers on the webcams is a nightmare

 

[507020]

As for the 197s, once they start, hopefully the roll out will be quite fast. Most of the crew up north have been trained so there are a lot of diagrams they could take over in theory if the sets are available.

When not a single unit has achieved 5000 fault free miles, what is the chance of them having their August introduction by the end of this year?

 

[meld3]

Quick question about numbering - there are 4 variants of 197 listed on Wiki (2-car with/without ETCS, 3-car with/without 1st class) but only 2 variants have numbers listed.
Makes sense to maybe use /2 and /3 subclasses but is anybody any the wiser ?

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Quick question about numbering - there are 4 variants of 197 listed on Wiki (2-car with/without ETCS, 3-car with/without 1st class) but only 2 variants have numbers listed.
Makes sense to maybe use /2 and /3 subclasses but is anybody any the wiser ?

The 2 cars without ETCS are 001 002, 004-021 042-051
The 2 cars with ETCS are 003 022-041
The 3 cars without First Class are 101 to 112
The 3 cars with first class are 113 to 126

I've heard rumour that the order has been extended to 82 units from 77, but nothing confirmed.

Can anyone confirm whether the planned introduction for the 14th Nov on the Conwy Valley line is still happening?

 

[CaergwrleKen]

The 2 cars without ETCS are 001 002, 004-021 042-051
The 2 cars with ETCS are 003 022-041
The 3 cars without First Class are 101 to 112
The 3 cars with first class are 113 to 126

I've heard rumour that the order has been extended to 82 units from 77, but nothing confirmed.

Can anyone confirm whether the planned introduction for the 14th Nov on the Conwy Valley line is still happening?

Last I heard off train crew from LLJ it’s been put back to the 21st..

 

[AlexNL]

I've heard rumour that the order has been extended to 82 units from 77, but nothing confirmed.

If there is truly an increase from 77 to 82 units this could hint at binning the Class 230s.

 

[Mzzzs]

If there is truly an increase from 77 to 82 units this could hint at binning the Class 230s.

Also, the 170s going to EMR.

 

[Rhydgaled]

If there is truly an increase from 77 to 82 units this could hint at binning the Class 230s.

Also, the 170s going to EMR.

The 170s going to EMR has been known about for some time, and TfW have confirmed (most recently in the November 2022 Modern Railways) that "there are no plans to order additional units"). So if (god forbid) additional units are ordered it will be because something else has changed in the fleet plan, not because of the 170s going to EMR.

 

[Luke McDonnell]

Do you know when the 197s will be introduced on the Liverpool-Chester via Runcorn service will it be at the same time as the Conwy Valley introduction or shortly after? I have heard that this service is going back to an hourly service in December so will the 197s be in service by then?

 

[Neptune]

The 170s going to EMR has been known about for some time, and TfW have confirmed (most recently in the November 2022 Modern Railways) that "there are no plans to order additional units"). So if (god forbid) additional units are ordered it will be because something else has changed in the fleet plan, not because of the 170s going to EMR.

Why must you always have something to say about your disgust of 197’s.

We know, we’ve read it so many times what you think. Why, when you have something to say like the above, can’t you just comment on the subject without adding these little personal ditty’s. It’s a huge turn off to those of us genuinely interested in the progress of new/refurbished trains in Wales to have these personal opinions thrust on us all the time.

 

[507020]

Do you know when the 197s will be introduced on the Liverpool-Chester via Runcorn service will it be at the same time as the Conwy Valley introduction or shortly after? I have heard that this service is going back to an hourly service in December so will the 197s be in service by then?

That’s what I want to know. If the latest on this thread is that their August introduction has now been postponed from 14 November to 21 November, is it safe to assume that no new units will be in service by the December timetable change? For the doubled frequency on Lime Street - Chester, the present double 153 could be split to give a single 153 every hour, which for obvious reasons is not desirable.

Why must you always have something to say about your disgust of 197’s.

We know, we’ve read it so many times what you think. Why, when you have something to say like the above, can’t you just comment on the subject without adding these little personal ditty’s. It’s a huge turn off to those of us genuinely interested in the progress of new/refurbished trains in Wales to have these personal opinions thrust on us all the time.

I, for example, am genuinely interested in the introduction of 197s and looking forward to having a ride on them from Lime Street to Chester and from Llandudno to Betws-y-Coed and Blaenau Ffestiniog as soon as they enter service, but am also aware that there is a genuine reason not to commit yourself or your railway to the continued use of Diesel by ordering any new pure DMUs, regardless of there being a short term stock shortage, at a time when hundreds of 21st century EMUs are heading straight for scrap, which is the direct consequence of a lack of electrification in this country. That is not anyone’s personal opinion. I think “god forbid” is at the very least a semi-appropriate response to the undesirable situation we are in.

 

[craigybagel]

Also, the 170s going to EMR.

This was already accounted in for. The extra MKIV sets and the retention of a small amount of 153s for the Heart of Wales is what is allowing their release.

Do you know when the 197s will be introduced on the Liverpool-Chester via Runcorn service will it be at the same time as the Conwy Valley introduction or shortly after? I have heard that this service is going back to an hourly service in December so will the 197s be in service by then?

Liverpool - Chester is still showing as 2 hourly in December. 197s are due to be introduced to that route shortly after their introduction on Blaneau.

 

[Neptune]

I, for example, am genuinely interested in the introduction of 197s and looking forward to having a ride on them from Lime Street to Chester and from Llandudno to Betws-y-Coed and Blaenau Ffestiniog as soon as they enter service, but am also aware that there is a genuine reason not to commit yourself or your railway to the continued use of Diesel by ordering any new pure DMUs, regardless of there being a short term stock shortage, at a time when hundreds of 21st century EMUs are heading straight for scrap, which is the direct consequence of a lack of electrification in this country. That is not anyone’s personal opinion. I think “god forbid” is at the very least a semi-appropriate response to the undesirable situation we are in.

I understand people have their points of view but to force them on people at every verse end as in this posters case is neither helpful as a rule and was totally unnecessary to the post they were replying to.

We all know this posters point of view, to complain about the 197 is pretty much the only time you see them post. We get it but either move on or stop it. It is a bigger turn off to the case they are presenting especially when the issues separate to the fact that they are pure diesel are the usual ‘I’m right, you’re all wrong’ subjective rubbish.

 

[Pete_uk]

What else would they order to replace the ex-tube trains?

Anyway, the Welsh won't know what's hit them with all their new trains. I wonder how much the 'spark effect' of new trains will increase ridership?

 

[sw1ller]

What else would they order to replace the ex-tube trains?

Anyway, the Welsh won't know what's hit them with all their new trains. I wonder how much the 'spark effect' of new trains will increase ridership?

Training has apparently started again on 230’s and this is previously untrained train crew too. So that’s a bit of a positive. But I don’t know wether it’s a token gesture or not. I just can’t see them staying in service and more 197’s will have to be ordered.

 

[Luke McDonnell]

This was already accounted in for. The extra MKIV sets and the retention of a small amount of 153s for the Heart of Wales is what is allowing their release.

Liverpool - Chester is still showing as 2 hourly in December. 197s are due to be introduced to that route shortly after their introduction on Blaneau.

I thought it was going back to hourly as I overheard a guard on this route mentioning a return to a hourly service in December does anyone know when they are due to go back to hourly?

 

[John R]

I understand people have their points of view but to force them on people at every verse end as in this posters case is neither helpful as a rule and was totally unnecessary to the post they were replying to.

We all know this posters point of view, to complain about the 197 is pretty much the only time you see them post. We get it but either move on or stop it. It is a bigger turn off to the case they are presenting especially when the issues separate to the fact that they are pure diesel are the usual ‘I’m right, you’re all wrong’ subjective rubbish.

Unit end gangways (lack of), mid-unit doors, (yawn, yawn). I agree it's tedious in the extreme when a poster keeps making the same critical comments about stock that has been ordered and takes the opportunity with just about every mention of the units to repeat them. On another forum there is a (port loving) individual that does exactly the same with the GWR IET's.

 

[507020]

Training has apparently started again on 230’s and this is previously untrained train crew too. So that’s a bit of a positive. But I don’t know wether it’s a token gesture or not. I just can’t see them staying in service and more 197’s will have to be ordered.

You say more 197s will need to be ordered. I don’t see 230s staying on Bidston - Wrexham long but they are more likely to be replaced by more 777s and a through service round the Liverpool loop. After that, what would be wrong with the 230s on the HoW to replace 153s?

 

[Envoy]

So, now they have put back the introduction of these trains yet again - to the 21 November. Are they no good?

 

[craigybagel]

I thought it was going back to hourly as I overheard a guard on this route mentioning a return to a hourly service in December does anyone know when they are due to go back to hourly?

Hopefully May. There's still a hefty backlog of training to work through across TfW.

So, now they have put back the introduction of these trains yet again - to the 21 November. Are they no good?

The units are fine - there are separate issues delaying their introduction into service.

 

[CardiffKid]

Anyway, the Welsh won't know what's hit them with all their new trains. I wonder how much the 'spark effect' of new trains will increase ridership?

Not to repeat the criticism of the 197s but the 158s and 175s are good trains just lack capacity, I'm not sure the 197s will be that much of an upgrade for your typical passenger.

The big passenger upgrade will come in South Wales, with the essential doubling of frequencies and much more visibly newer trains. That will be the game changer.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

I'm not sure the 197s will be that much of an upgrade for your typical passenger.

For many the real upgrade will be getting a seat or at the very least getting on a train.

 

[Envoy]

For many the real upgrade will be getting a seat or at the very least getting on a train.

Totally agree. I bet a lot of people have been put off train travel due to the overcrowding - which has dragged on for years.

 

[Adam Evans]

Not to repeat the criticism of the 197s but the 158s and 175s are good trains just lack capacity, I'm not sure the 197s will be that much of an upgrade for your typical passenger.

I think the plan according to TfW is to have multiple 197s coupled together in order to form longer trains overall hence their end gangway design and the relatively large order of 2-car trains. Their argument on why they ordered so many 2 car sets being that it allows for more flexibility within the fleet ie if one set breaks down then that's only two coaches that're out of service rather than an entire three or four car set.

 

[anamyd]

The units are fine - there are separate issues delaying their introduction into service.

Such as?

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder that the topic of this thread is CAF Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction

If anyone wants to discuss anything else (such as whether you like the new units or not) then they are welcome to start a new thread.

thanks

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Chester seemed full of 197s today, either on the main line, in sidings or on the depot.
However, too many of the units in the Llandudno-Manchester service today were 2-car 175s.
That's not good enough.