Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

[AlterEgo]

High net migration is a requirement for the pyramid scheme economic model we have at the moment, while domestic birth rates are low. This is why Government action and rhetoric on the subject have not matched.

Immigration from outside the EU has gone up. The government certainly isn’t anti-immigration, in fact they see it is necessary to underpin the economy. The government masks this by being extremely hostile to illegal or irregular migration, and of course Brexit made immigration drop significantly down their voters’ list of priorities (mostly through ignorance).

 

[jfollows]

On a separate note, it seems that Boris Johnson actually did have sufficient nominations from MPs to stand against Rishi Sunak last week, and simply chose not to. I have to admit I was one of those who assumed his claims of having enough nominations was just bluster, and he was forced to pull out because he couldn't get enough support. But Graham Brady has now apparently confirmed Boris was over the 100 nomination threshold. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63503932



(By saying "two candidates" he hasn't named Boris explicitly, but there's clearly no-one else he could be referring to).

I assumed his claims of having enough votes was a lie, simply, because it's impossible to tell when Boris Johnson is lying or telling the truth - his lips move on both occasions. But I'm happy to admit that I was wrong on this occasion. I think he worked out that he'd lose against Rishi Sunak eventually, and this would be more embarrassing to him than pulling out early (no jokes required).

 

[yorksrob]

Some of us feel that model needs to change in favour of one where a static or slightly declining population is OK. I'd agree things like State pensions are basically a Ponzi scheme.

State pensions aren't necessarily a ponzi scheme if you have a stable population.

 

[JamesT]

State pensions aren't necessarily a ponzi scheme if you have a stable population.

You also need the age profile to remain relatively static so the ratio of workers to pensioners remains the same.

 

[yorksrob]

You also need the age profile to remain relatively static so the ratio of workers to pensioners remains the same.

That too.

 

[najaB]

I assumed his claims of having enough votes was a lie, simply, because it's impossible to tell when Boris Johnson is lying or telling the truth - his lips move on both occasions. But I'm happy to admit that I was wrong on this occasion. I think he worked out that he'd lose against Rishi Sunak eventually

If it had gone to the party membership there was no way he would have lost out to Rishi. But I think he worked out that the next couple of years probably aren't going to be a good time to be in charge.

…and this would be more embarrassing to him than pulling out early (no jokes required).

First time for everything, I guess.

 

[takno]

You also need the age profile to remain relatively static so the ratio of workers to pensioners remains the same.

All pensions are a ponzi scheme on that basis. If it's an entitlement established by investment like a pension scheme, if there's a small working-age population and low unemployment then the working age population will be able to force an increase in the value of wages and relative lowering of investment values. In a lot of ways I trust the government's commitment to pay pensions a lot more than I trust my various private pensions.

 

[Herefordian]

I've stated that because people in this thread have often posted what, by any reasonable standard, is abuse (for example, referring to people as 'vile'). Or do you think that abuse is somehow acceptable if the person you're targetting is a Tory?



It's very simple really. I work on the basis that everyone is a human being, and most human beings are fundamentally decent people. And long experience tells me that the vast majority of people who join political parties do so because they want to make the world a better place.

You seem to think I'm somehow unreasonably defending the Tories, but if you look carefully at my posts and the context of them, you'll see that a lot of the time, all I'm doing is calling out people who are basically making stuff up about Tory politicians. You don't have to fully support a party or a politician to realise that making stuff up about them is really not on.

For the record by the way, I think Matt Hancock's decision to go on I'm a Celebrity is appalling. His job is to represent his constituents, not to go off gallivanting on some tv entertainment program. I very much hope that, as a result of this, his local Tory association deselects him as a candidate for the next election [*]. But to try to implicate Rishi Sunak or the rest of the Government in all that is patently absurd.

[*] Some people here would do well to notice how I managed to say that without writing anything abusive about Matt Hancock as a person. See - it can be done!

There is a difference between a nickname and outright abuse. "Cruella" and "Captain Hindsight" are the former.

By all means, where it is justified, people have the right to defend their political party.

I'm afraid, in this case, it is as clear as day Hancock was used to distract from Braverman. Classic dead cat.

Braverman's speech at the Tory conference was not from someone who is pro-immigration or pro-immigrant.

There are things the Tories have done which I praise them for, such as same-sex marriage, which I can benefit from if I wish.

But there is a lot to criticise them for at the moment.

 

[jfollows]

There are things the Tories have done which I praise them for, such as same-sex marriage, which I can benefit from if I wish.

I did, we converted our Civil Partnership to marriage for free (in the first year I think), but this was Cameron/Osborne, hard to see the latest iteration of the Conservative party doing similar.

EDIT: Him: Why did you come to Manchester to do this? Me: Because we had our Civil Partnership in Manchester Town Hall and because our alternative location for this is Crewe. We plan on going to lunch next. Why would we want to do this in Crewe? Him: Fair point.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Nov 2022 ==

I think, but I hope that I'm wrong, that "This government will have integrity, professionalism and accountability at every level" (https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/prime-minister-rishi-sunaks-statement-25-october-2022 ) will come to haunt Rishi Sunak. He's got to sack anyone who doesn't live up to these standards immediately, if their contrary behaviour is proven, and there are already rumblings about Gavin Williamson, for example, who is really a bit of a plonker if truth be known.

 

[najaB]

He's got to sack anyone who doesn't live up to these standards immediately, if their contrary behaviour is proven, and there are already rumblings about Gavin Williamson, for example, who is really a bit of a plonker if truth be known.

Well, he's already failed this test by reappointing Braverman to the cabinet.

 

[Strathclyder]

There are things the Tories have done which I praise them for, such as same-sex marriage, which I can benefit from if I wish.

But there is a lot to criticise them for at the moment.

Ditto. I can praise them for this alongside you as a potential, but still direct beneficiary - being gay myself - but there's plenty right now that they are rightly being hauled up on.

It is certainly a little odd, I'd expect children of immigrants to have a little more empathy with those trying to come here. That is certainly not the case for Patel or Braverman. Even more odd is the behaviour of Patel's father who actually stood as a councillor for UKIP once.

I suppose their personal reasoning for taking such a stance against the very thing they and their family have benefitted from makes sense (to them), but to those of us, on the outside looking in, it just short-circuits the brain trying to make any sense of it.

The worst example is the Rt (Wing) Hon Member for Shrewsbury, who is an actual immigrant. He's as much the unacceptable face of Toryism as his erstwhile political neighbour, Mr Paterson. But that's been discussed already (in the similar Johnson thread a few months back) so maybe best not to stir up that hornet's nest again

Yeah, best we stop prodding that hornet's nest lol

 

[Gloster]

If it had gone to the party membership there was no way he would have lost out to Rishi. But I think he worked out that the next couple of years probably aren't going to be a good time to be in charge.

I fully agree. He realised that hard and unpopular decisions are going to need to be made in the next few years and that is not in his way of working. Let someone else take the flak, then come back as the popular returning saviour once the worst is over. (Did he not realise how bad things had become under Truss because he was on holiday?)

 

[nw1]

I've stated that because people in this thread have often posted what, by any reasonable standard, is abuse (for example, referring to people as 'vile'). Or do you think that abuse is somehow acceptable if the person you're targetting is a Tory?

I still don't think a nickname like "Cruella" is abuse. It just suggests that the person using the nickname believes some of Braverman's opinions on migration are rather cruel.

I think we need to be very careful with terms like "abuse" to ensure that it is only directed at genuine bullying and not at barbed criticism which reflect consternation and anger at politicians with opinions which are, in the eye of the criticiser, outrageous.

 

[Busaholic]

One silly thing about becoming a British citizen is how you have to answer some sort of glorified pub-quiz to become one, amongst other things. The questions asked you who the Chartists were. As someone born here, a good while ago, I still don't know.

I can answer that one for you. They were led by Alan 'Fluff' Freeman, whose catchphrases included 'hi there, pop pickers' and 'not 'alf'. Despite much evidence to the contrary, I believe he was an actual person.

 

[nw1]

I can answer that one for you. They were led by Alan 'Fluff' Freeman, whose catchphrases included 'hi there, pop pickers' and 'not 'alf'. Despite much evidence to the contrary, I believe he was an actual person.

Indeed.

Maybe they should ask about well-known British bands and artists that citizenship quiz. Or how many weeks Bryan Adams spent at number one and in what year. Let's face it, it's as valid as knowing who the Chartists actually are

 

[XAM2175]

Maybe they should ask about well-known British bands and artists that citizenship quiz. Or how many weeks Bryan Adams spent at number one and in what year. Let's face it, it's as valid as knowing who the Chartists actually are

Christ no, I paid fifty quid for the privilege of sitting the test last year and passed easily but I wouldn't have a hope in hell if it changed to something like that (or sports either, if I'm honest)

 

[Falcon1200]

I still don't think a nickname like "Cruella" is abuse.

I agree, IMHO it's actually quite clever and funny, and I would not be surprised if Ms Braverman secretly delights in her nickname! Calling Tories scum however, or saying that you detest them, is another level.

 

[brad465]

Gavin Williamson is now being investigated over abusive texts he sent to the Chief Whip, Wendy Morton, regarding not being invited to the Queen's state funeral:

https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1588945227511103489

EXCLUSIVE: Gavin Williamson sent abusive and threatening messages to Wendy Morton about not being invited to the Queen's funeral, warning her: "There is a price for everything" Sunak told of complaint about him but appointed him anyway, ex-chairman says.

Williamson told Morton it was “disgusting you are using her death to punish people…absolutely disgusting” - a claim for which he didn’t provide any evidence When she told him it wasn’t true, Williamson said: “perception becomes reality”.

Williamson told Morton, the party’s first female chief whip, that her approach was “very stupid”, “looks ****”, and that she trying to “f**k us all over” He sarcastically thanked her for her “patronising and condescending tone”, told her not to “bother asking anything from me”.

Jake Berry says he told Sunak about the complaint in a private meeting - a claim not denied tho No10 says the PM doesn’t remember specifics of the conversation.

Williamson appeared to apologise last night. He said: “I of course regret getting frustrated about the way colleagues and I felt we were being treated. I’m happy to speak with Wendy, and I hope to work positively with her in the future as I have in the past.”

 

[Busaholic]

Gavin Williamson is now being investigated over abusive texts he sent to the Chief Whip, Wendy Morton, regarding not being invited to the Queen's state funeral:

https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1588945227511103489

Just when you thought the limits of self-deluded narcissism surely couldn't be surpassed by any more Tory MPs along comes Williamson. I seem to remember another MP with the surname Williamson, but in the Labour Party (Chris), and he was got rid of by his party. The same should happen to GW.
Actually, I think his text should be referred to the police and he could be interviewed under caution. That type of person would soon be snivelling.

 

[Typhoon]

Just when you thought the limits of self-deluded narcissism surely couldn't be surpassed by any more Tory MPs along comes Williamson. I seem to remember another MP with the surname Williamson, but in the Labour Party (Chris), and he was got rid of by his party. The same should happen to GW.
Actually, I think his text should be referred to the police and he could be interviewed under caution. That type of person would soon be snivelling.

I'm glad someone posted before me, it has given me time to consider a response. He never occupied a single one of the Great Offices of State, he wasn't even a minister at the time. There are so many deserving people who gave service to this country, and the Queen would have acknowledged as giving service to the country, who were not only not invited but didn't expect to be invited. His claim to fame is that he was sacked twice, for incompetence and following a leak when he was Defence Secretary. That is it.
I didn't think my opinion of him could sink any lower; I was wrong. A touch of humility would not go amiss.

 

[brad465]

I'm glad someone posted before me, it has given me time to consider a response. He never occupied a single one of the Great Offices of State, he wasn't even a minister at the time. There are so many deserving people who gave service to this country, and the Queen would have acknowledged as giving service to the country, who were not only not invited but didn't expect to be invited. His claim to fame is that he was sacked twice, for incompetence and following a leak when he was Defence Secretary. That is it.
I didn't think my opinion of him could sink any lower; I was wrong. A touch of humility would not go amiss.

Just when you thought the limits of self-deluded narcissism surely couldn't be surpassed by any more Tory MPs along comes Williamson. I seem to remember another MP with the surname Williamson, but in the Labour Party (Chris), and he was got rid of by his party. The same should happen to GW.
Actually, I think his text should be referred to the police and he could be interviewed under caution. That type of person would soon be snivelling.

Gavin Williamson was also by far the lowest rated Cabinet Member at the height of Johnson's Government among party members, according to Conservative Home polling, so even loyal Tory supporters as a whole don't really approve of him.

Oh and just looked at the latest table, and he still is the lowest rated:

Our first Cabinet League Table of the Sunak premiership. Braverman is fifth from bottom. | Conservative Home

Wallace is top again. Badenoch and Cleverly score well. Sunak wins a respectable rating. And Williamson is in negative territory.

conservativehome.com

Gavin Williamson scoring -28.8 approval among party members in October 2022.

 

[Lost property]

Following the success of his "shut up and go away " statement, Gav has now expanded his range of sentiments in the hope, presumably, of getting his hat trick for being kicked out of Ministerial posts.....reports of UFO sightings can now be confirmed however....the objects were Gav's toys being launched at high velocity into the atmosphere.

Gavin Williamson sent expletive-laden messages to chief whip

Angry at not being invited to the Queen’s funeral, minister sent string of abusive texts

www.theguardian.com

 

[Domh245]

As unpleasant as Williamson is, this excerpt did make me laugh:

There is absolutely no need for you to take this tone Gavin. I am trying to help.

How are you?

I'm fine

No how are you helping but very glad you are fine

 

[43096]

As unpleasant as Williamson is, this excerpt did make me laugh:

It's rather ironic that the former Chief Whip is complaining about the language used by Williamson (although he is an odious ****). Such language (and more) is the stock-in-trade of the party whips - you only have to look at the stories that came about the fracking vote to see that. Who was the Chief Whip at the time of that vote? That'll be Wendy Morton...

 

[Typhoon]

He seemed to think he ought to be on the invitation list because he was a Privy Councillor. There are 743 of them, there would be no room for the choir.

Given the publicity it is getting, I met Sunak's pleased that he opted for COP27 after all.

 

[najaB]

Given the publicity it is getting, I met Sunak's pleased that he opted for COP27 after all.

Except the publicity is all about the U-turn, which is less than ideal.

 

[yorksrob]

The Tories have turned the country into a laughing stock. The only decent thing they can do is go, yet still they cling on.

 

[WizCastro197]

As unpleasant as Williamson is, this excerpt did make me laugh:

Part of me believes this last part was said in a sort of appropriate manner but then an even larger part of believes that it was stated in the same condescending manner he acccused Morton of.


But seriously though, with the migrant crisis at Manston, Matt Hancock’s IACGMOH appearance and now this, I have to say I slightly surprised why voting intention for conservatives has ticked up by 1%

 

[Busaholic]

Except the publicity is all about the U-turn, which is less than ideal.

'Less Than Ideal' could serve as the title of Jacob Rees-Mogg's long unawaited diaries of the recent Tory years which will be published by the Murdoch-owned Harper Collins after this government has finally imploded, to be serialised in the Sun before publication, and available in The Works three weeks later reduced from £25 to £5 (less with a loyalty card.) Signing sessions will take place in Harrods' and Hatchards bookshops, but no others. Ebay will have dozens of these copies available from £3 ono shortly afterwards. Boris Johnson will be photographed parachuting to the head of the queue (Sid and Doris Bonkers) outside Harrods. Nigel Farage will somehow get into the picture too, you can be sure.

 

[nw1]

Part of me believes this last part was said in a sort of appropriate manner but then an even larger part of believes that it was stated in the same condescending manner he acccused Morton of.

But seriously though, with the migrant crisis at Manston, Matt Hancock’s IACGMOH appearance and now this, I have to say I slightly surprised why voting intention for conservatives has ticked up by 1%

Because the current lot are slightly less bad than Truss, I guess. Also I suspect Williamsongate has yet to filter through.