Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

[nw1]

You're descending into conspiracy theories again

So analysing a situation at a deeper level than what meets the eye, and suggesting alternative explanations, is indulging in conspiracy theories? I don't think so. The term "conspiracy theory" is used way too much by politicians and their supporters to belittle their opponents.

I'm not saying this is actually what happened here, but this is a well known political phenomenon - a dead cat.

If we take everything at face value we end up with no critical faculties whatsoever.

Don't get me wrong, I am no fan of Hancock, and I think eating insects would be appropriate humility for him; I intensely disliked his hypocrisy during Covid. This hypocrisy was, to me, in fact, much more of an issue than deciding to go on "I'm a Celebrity".

In summary, regardless of what did or did not happen in this case, I think it's completely unacceptable to use terms like "conspiracy theory" when people suggest scheming behaviour by a government.

 

[Garmoran]

I think the point there is that the Ukranians aren't being detained on cruise ships - the accommodation is provided while they find something else, and they can come and go as they like. It's all a bit less prison-boaty.

And the ships are not moored in international waters, as I heard someone suggesting on Radio 4 Today earlier this week. I also got the impression that the speaker thought there were international waters in the English Channel, which I don't think can be correct...

 

[nw1]

And the ships are not moored in international waters, as I heard someone suggesting on Radio 4 Today earlier this week. I also got the impression that the speaker thought there were international waters in the English Channel, which I don't think can be correct...

I think there are for most of the English Channel, except at the Straits of Dover.

 

[Gloster]

I think there are for most of the English Channel, except at the Straits of Dover.

There are no international waters in the area between east of South Foreland and south of Dungeness: in this section, 40-50 miles long, British and French territorial waters abut each other. To either side there is an area of international waters between the territorial ones.

 

[JamesT]

There are no international waters in the area between east of South Foreland and south of Dungeness: in this section, 40-50 miles long, British and French territorial waters abut each other. To either side there is an area of international waters between the territorial ones.

Though another definition of international waters is being beyond any state's control. As the exclusive economic zone extends for 200 miles (unless it meets another state's EEZ) then there's nowhere on that side of the UK which is international waters.

 

[najaB]

Though another definition of international waters is being beyond any state's control. As the exclusive economic zone extends for 200 miles (unless it meets another state's EEZ) then there's nowhere on that side of the UK which is international waters.

True for economic activity (e.g. drilling for oil) but as far as territorial jurisdiction is concerned it's normally 12 miles from the low water mark.

 

[Herefordian]

So analysing a situation at a deeper level than what meets the eye, and suggesting alternative explanations, is indulging in conspiracy theories? I don't think so. The term "conspiracy theory" is used way too much by politicians and their supporters to belittle their opponents.

I'm not saying this is actually what happened here, but this is a well known political phenomenon - a dead cat.

If we take everything at face value we end up with no critical faculties whatsoever.

Don't get me wrong, I am no fan of Hancock, and I think eating insects would be appropriate humility for him; I intensely disliked his hypocrisy during Covid. This hypocrisy was, to me, in fact, much more of an issue than deciding to go on "I'm a Celebrity".

In summary, regardless of what did or did not happen in this case, I think it's completely unacceptable to use terms like "conspiracy theory" when people suggest scheming behaviour by a government.

Completely agree.

Especially after DynamicSpirit accused member(s) of "abusing" Conservative politicians.

I think it's obvious Hancock is being used as a distraction from Braverman.

I genuinely cannot understand the lengths DynamicSpirit will go to to defend the Conservatives or its politicians.

 

[najaB]

Seems Sunak and co have very limited room for manoeuvre where the economy is concerned:

The Bank of England has warned the UK is in its longest recession since records began, as it raised interest rates by the most in 33 years.
In its outlook for the UK economy, it said the country would face a "very challenging" two-year slump.
It also warned the unemployment rate will nearly double.
The Bank lifted the UK interest rate to 3% from 2.25%, the biggest increase since 1989.
It takes borrowing costs to their highest since 2008, when the UK banking system faced collapse.

bbc.co.uk/news/business-63471725

 

[Luke McDonnell]

I see that Hunt is going on comparing government spending to family budgets again we do not want to see a return to 2010 style austerity IMO that was the biggest mistake at the time comparing household budgets to the budget of a sovereign state that can resort to measures like QE in which a central bank buys government debt does anyone think that a budget involving significant cuts may not pass through Parliament it meaning an election and the people having the verdict on such a budget?

 

[jon0844]

Nope, yet another "U" turn when confronted with the reality of failed policies and / or decisions...actually, with this Gov'ts record on "U" turns, they should have their own entry in the Guiness Book of Records by now.

Awaits a shoddily put together Word document printed out on single sided A4 by a recently formed publishing company that is headed by a mate of a MP...

 

[birchesgreen]

So Braverman took a military Chinook helicopter to take her on a 20 mile trip to a detention centre. How much did that cost us?! I'm sure the Tax Payers Alliance will be along any minute to bleat about this waste of money.

Any time now.

 

[Darandio]

So Braverman took a military Chinook helicopter to take her on a 20 mile trip to a detention centre. How much did that cost us?! I'm sure the Tax Payers Alliance will be along any minute to bleat about this waste of money.

Any time now.

Apparently it was so she could observe what was going on out at sea. Maybe she was going to call in air strikes?

Turns out there were no boats to be seen anyway, the weather was crap and visibility was poor.

 

[najaB]

Turns out there were no boats to be seen anyway, the weather was crap and visibility was poor.

Somehow that seems about what you'd expect from this government - a big public display of the Home Secretary flying out to sea to take control, and seeing nothing but fog!

 

[AlterEgo]

The Chinook stunt was pathetic.

 

[birchesgreen]

At least she didn't order Apaches in to strafe boats in the channel, that'll be for next week.

 

[GusB]

So Braverman took a military Chinook helicopter to take her on a 20 mile trip to a detention centre. How much did that cost us?! I'm sure the Tax Payers Avoiders Alliance will be along any minute to bleat about this waste of money.

Any time now.

Fixed that for you

 

[nw1]

So Braverman took a military Chinook helicopter to take her on a 20 mile trip to a detention centre. How much did that cost us?! I'm sure the Tax Payers Alliance will be along any minute to bleat about this waste of money.

Any time now.

Speaking as a member of the Unofficial British Taxpayers' Guild, I would like to comment that it is absolutely vital to defend this country from illegal immigrants, and that Braverman is absolutely right to spend whatever money she can find in furtherance of this cause.

If vital public services have to be slashed, so be it.



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2022 ==

I see that Hunt is going on comparing government spending to family budgets again we do not want to see a return to 2010 style austerity IMO that was the biggest mistake at the time comparing household budgets to the budget of a sovereign state that can resort to measures like QE in which a central bank buys government debt does anyone think that a budget involving significant cuts may not pass through Parliament it meaning an election and the people having the verdict on such a budget?

Maybe he could write a Hotcourse on "How To Implement Savage Cuts and Make People Feel Guilty For Questioning Them". And flog it to people for a few thousand quid.

 

[Yew]

The Chinook stunt was pathetic.

It would be quite fun to have a go though!

 

[JamesT]

I would expect the chinook run would be counted as routine training, so there might not be much additional expenditure even if it is a bit of a stunt.

 

[Strathclyder]

I see even The Times has put the boot into Cruella today, with one Tory former Home Office minister quoted as saying “It just shows what a thug she is. She’s facile, totally uncompassionate and insincere, hamming it up and that’s the reputation she has now. The ERG is abandoning her, it’s only the dinosaurs left defending her now.”

Patel was just as bad for this generally, but Braverman amps up the sociopathy, smugness and false sincerity 10-fold. One of the most insufferable, not to mention dangerous, people in this Government. Shouldn't be in charge of a popsicle stand, let alone the Home Office.

There is something particular odious about the child of immigrants being so vehemently anti-immigration.

Yeah, this is something I've never really managed to wrap my head around. As incomprehensible as it is repugnant.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Patel was just as bad for this generally, but Braverman amps up the sociopathy, smugness and false sincerity 10-fold. One of the most insufferable, not to mention dangerous, people in this Government. Shouldn't be in charge of a popsicle stand, let alone the Home Office.


Yeah, this is something I've never really managed to wrap my head around. As incomprehensible as it is repugnant.

Not really, there’s a long history of abhorrent people in positions of power acting in a manner that shows they secretly despise their own origins.

 

[najaB]

I would expect the chinook run would be counted as routine training, so there might not be much additional expenditure even if it is a bit of a stunt.

It could well be hidden in the budget as training, but there definitely would have been additional costs incurred as I doubt they normally use Chinooks as patrol aircraft.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There is something particular odious about the child of immigrants being so vehemently anti-immigration.

I'm pretty sure she isn't anti-immigration per se. She's anti-people-who-are-already-in-a-safe-country-paying-to-be-smuggled-in-dangerous-boats-putting-lives-at-risk-just-so-they-can-claim-asylum-in-a-different-safe-country. That's quite a different thing.

 

[Strathclyder]

Not really, there’s a long history of abhorrent people in positions of power acting in a manner that shows they secretly despise their own origins.

Not denying that for a second. I suppose I'm still a bit floored that Braverman has managed to do what was once viewed as the seemingly impossible: make Patel look tame.

God, even damning Patel by the faintest of praises makes me feel like I need a shower...

 

[Herefordian]

I'm pretty sure she isn't anti-immigration per se. She's anti-people-who-are-already-in-a-safe-country-paying-to-be-smuggled-in-dangerous-boats-putting-lives-at-risk-just-so-they-can-claim-asylum-in-a-different-safe-country. That's quite a different thing.

Oh, have you asked her then?

 

[najaB]

I'm pretty sure she isn't anti-immigration per se.

‘I would love to have a front page of the Telegraph with a plane taking off to Rwanda, that’s my dream, it’s my obsession’ - Suella Braverman

 

[DelW]

I would expect the chinook run would be counted as routine training, so there might not be much additional expenditure even if it is a bit of a stunt.

Judging from the number of Chinook flights I see (and hear) over my neck of the woods, an extra 20 mile flight would be a trivial addition. There have been at least three over just this afternoon, though whether that's three different ones or the same one three times, I can't tell.

They're bloody noisy things, which sound quite unlike anything else, presumably because of the twin rotors.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Oh, have you asked her then?

No, I've just gone by what she says and does. Going by what someone says and does usually gets you more accurate information than just, making up stuff about them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2022 ==

‘I would love to have a front page of the Telegraph with a plane taking off to Rwanda, that’s my dream, it’s my obsession’ - Suella Braverman

Which is perfectly consistent with being against illegal-small-boats-smuggling but having no issues about legal/legitimate immigration (Although I'd give you that the language she's using seems pretty provocative - not at all the kind of language I'd use).

 

[Herefordian]

No, I've just gone by what she says and does. Going by what someone says and does usually gets you more accurate information than just, making up stuff about them.

Hmm.

You've previously said people can't form a viewpoint on a politician unless they know them personally.

See here and here.

So, how can you be sure Braverman isn't anti immigration if you don't know her personally?

 

[najaB]

Which is perfectly consistent with being against illegal-small-boats-smuggling but having no issues about legal/legitimate immigration

Surely in that case her dream would be not needing to have any deportation scheme at all?