Asking the RPSI to preserve a Class 80

[NIR111Class]

I've wrote a letter to the Railway Preservation Society of Ireland asking to preserve one of the few remaining 80 Class DEMUs before it and the 450 Class get replaced by the C4Ks and fade into history.

I haven't sent it off yet, but I'd like to have your opinions on the RPSI preserving a Class 80 before I do.

Thanks!

 

[Chris125]

Railway Preservation doesnt work like that im afraid. It's a noble thought, but they arent going to spend their money and free time on preserving something just because they were asked to in a letter.

Whether you send it or not, i'm sure they'd consider it if one was offered ; whether there's was enough interest among their members and the wider enthusiast community, if they could afford to maintain it, if there's one in good enough condition and if they thought it could pay its way... but i cant see it happening.

Chris

 

[4SRKT]

The 80 class was for 30 years THE default train in Northern Ireland. It would be a tragedy if one was not saved. It's far more representative than the Hunslets, two out of three of which were 'saved' (although this looks pretty doomed). What with two 141s in preservation I get the feeling that in Irish preservation circles units aren't really looked on as 'proper' trains, which given the pioneering roles of both the UTA and the GNR, as well as various narrow gauge concerns, in developing units, is something of a pity. Maybe the Northern Ireland government could be pursuaded to assist, although I wouldn't want any preserved set to end up languishing at Cultra like a caged animal.

I don't suppose it can hurt to write to the RPSI, if only to find out if they have any intentions themselves, or some sort of sub-group that we can join.

Another problem in the not-too-distant future is to ensure that a 111 class gets preserved, although I suppose it's likely that an 071 will survive, so that sort of covers it.

Let me put it this way, if I come into any money this year, the very first call I will make will be to NIR to buy an 80 class set.

 

[NIR111Class]

Well, I can paste the letter here to see if it's good enough to send off. It's saved as a document so if anyone else wants in I'll gladly mention them.

Really, I don't see the reason why a multiple unit can't be preserved, there are hundreds of ex-BR DMUs in the UK working on heritage railways and doing main line charters. Especially, the 80's BR Southern Region cousins! Northern Ireland has already let away evidence that they were ahead of British Rail in developing the multiple unit, like the UTA MED's sliding doors and the high powered hydro-mechanical powered units, which were invented nearly thirty years before BR even thought of the idea, but people weren't bothered to save them.

I must agree that it would be possible that the RPSI and the Irish Traction Group could reject the idea, but it's only a matter of time before these machines are kicked off the rail network by the hideously modern looking C4K units when they come into service in a matter of months, and that's why I came to the idea of writing the letter.

Really if they do reject the idea I would like nothing more than to pitch in to buy one and form a charity trust dedicated to its operation and maintenance, rather than cramming it into Cultra for kids to vandalise.

 

[4SRKT]

I'd be very interested to hear what the RPSI have to say. Or the ITG, but the RPSI would be better because we'd prefer to keep any preserved 80 in Northern Ireland if at all possible. If there is some sort of serious group looking to preserve one of these great trains, I'll be very keen to join up.

Anyway, to remind us of the good times and cheer us up a bit here's a shot of 90 waiting to leave Dundalk on the 20:10 to Bangor on 3rd June 1991.

 

[NIR111Class]

Ah, lovely picture. If a unit gets preserved I'd like it to be in either the redstripe or that Suburban livery.

Anyway, here's the letter I wrote to the chairman. See what you think of it!


" To
The chairman of the Railway Preservation Society of Ireland

I would wish to propose the possible purchase of an NI Railways 80 Class Diesel-electric Multiple Unit for preservation.

These units served the NIR network for several years since the early seventies and being the solid and flexible passenger workhorses they were built to be, played a vital role in saving the Northern Irish network when closure seemed imminent. I believe failure in not saving one of these units would be a disgrace and an embarrassment to the railway preservation trend in Ireland.
Recently we’ve seen many aged diesel locomotives entering preservation, including the two 141s and the Hunslets which you own (although scrapping 101 and attempting to restore 102 to traffic did not go as well when tried at first). It would be good for once to see a multiple unit preserved and in working order, not just heritage locomotives. These are one of the most unique multiple units ever to be manufactured in the British Isles because of their trademark Mark 2 bodyshell. It will not be very long until both the 80 class and 450 class, which are both special for their history and English Electric ‘Thumper’ engines are replaced by the Spanish C3K and C4K units. By quickest it will take only a matter of months for these beautiful machines to fade into history along with the GNR(I) and UTA railcars. They also represent the last British products made/purchased for NIR, apart from the 450 Class which was made from a recycled 70 Class fleet by BREL. Purchasing one or more of these units, driving trailers and possibly intermediate trailers, this could supplement many charter trains and railtours. There are too many opportunities the society could achieve with preserved multiple units for me to include in this letter. Upon purchase of one of these units the society could ask NIR to provide them with possible spare parts for keeping the unit in working order.

I, as well as many other enthusiasts will be more than delighted to know that at least one of a class of the most legendary multiple-units in Ireland will be preserved in full working order to operate for future generations.

Please, do consider the advantages of a preserved 80 Class.

Sincerely
Society Member,
Stephen Hannify "

Just wondering if there is anything I could correct or change.

 

[northernrail]

The East Lancashire Railway have one car of 8099 but used as a source of spares.
I recently asked about 8099 and the ELR say its technicly preserved but it is a mess.

 

[Flying Snail]

Ah, lovely picture. If a unit gets preserved I'd like it to be in either the redstripe or that Suburban livery.

Anyway, here's the letter I wrote to the chairman. See what you think of it!


" To
The chairman of the Railway Preservation Society of Ireland

I would wish to propose the possible purchase of an NI Railways 80 Class Diesel-electric Multiple Unit for preservation.

These units served the NIR network for several years since the early seventies and being the solid and flexible passenger workhorses they were built to be, played a vital role in saving the Northern Irish network when closure seemed imminent. I believe failure in not saving one of these units would be a disgrace and an embarrassment to the railway preservation trend in Ireland.
Recently we’ve seen many aged diesel locomotives entering preservation, including the two 141s and the Hunslets which you own (although scrapping 101 and attempting to restore 102 to traffic did not go as well when tried at first). It would be good for once to see a multiple unit preserved and in working order, not just heritage locomotives. These are one of the most unique multiple units ever to be manufactured in the British Isles because of their trademark Mark 2 bodyshell. It will not be very long until both the 80 class and 450 class, which are both special for their history and English Electric ‘Thumper’ engines are replaced by the Spanish C3K and C4K units. By quickest it will take only a matter of months for these beautiful machines to fade into history along with the GNR(I) and UTA railcars. They also represent the last British products made/purchased for NIR, apart from the 450 Class which was made from a recycled 70 Class fleet by BREL. Purchasing one or more of these units, driving trailers and possibly intermediate trailers, this could supplement many charter trains and railtours. There are too many opportunities the society could achieve with preserved multiple units for me to include in this letter. Upon purchase of one of these units the society could ask NIR to provide them with possible spare parts for keeping the unit in working order.

I, as well as many other enthusiasts will be more than delighted to know that at least one of a class of the most legendary multiple-units in Ireland will be preserved in full working order to operate for future generations.

Please, do consider the advantages of a preserved 80 Class.

Sincerely
Society Member,
Stephen Hannify "

Just wondering if there is anything I could correct or change.

As you are already a member I would suggest you make a commitment of your time (and if possible some money) to the project. RPSI's main focus is on their steam collection, any move to preserve a DMU is only going to happen if enough people are willing to put their effort into it and I would imagine that expecting the majority of current active members to take it on without serious support from committed supporters would not happen.

If you are serious about it (more than just wanting it to be done by others) then I would suggest sounding out other members and trying to find more people willing to commit to helping such a project.

Asking the heads of RPSI to do it because some enthusiasts would like to see it done is the wrong approach. You would be better asking what if any plans the society has and asking how you can contribute if they have plans or if you can talk to them about the feasibility of starting a plan if they do not currently have one.

The East Lancashire Railway have one car of 8099 but used as a source of spares.
I recently asked about 8099 and the ELR say its technicly preserved but it is a mess.

Dropping the trailers onto standard guage bogies is easy enough but even if there was enough interest in Britain (and considering how miopic a great deal of British enthusiasts are I would say there wouldn't be) converting the powercar bogies to standard guage would be an expensive proposition.

 

[4SRKT]

Dropping the trailers onto standard guage bogies is easy enough but even if there was enough interest in Britain (and considering how miopic a great deal of British enthusiasts are I would say there wouldn't be) converting the powercar bogies to standard guage would be an expensive proposition.

I think this a little unfair, as many British enthusiasts are (finally) waking up to NIR DEMUs and heading over in droves to sample them. I understand that the B6 bogies used on 80 and 450 class power cars are very similar to those used on a class 73, so maybe the best approach to a standard gauge 80 class would be to recover some from that source. These locos were powered by the same engine as DEMUs anyway, so ought to be fine.

This is a rubbish solution compared to having a unit in Ireland though.

 

[NIR111Class]

If I had the money and lived nearer to Whitehead I would be more than happy to put money and work into it. Unfortunately I'm a sitting duck between Newry and Dundalk and couldn't be able to travel the distance for paying for and doing preservation work on a DEMU.

But I'll keep it in mind to ask if there are any volunteers and members that actually are interested in preserving an 80 class.

 

[Chris125]

Enthusiasts will head off 'in droves' to travel on anything they think is about to end, thats nothing new - it doesnt mean they will contribute to its preservation. Just look at how much interest there's been over the decades regarding 3rd rail EMU's, and what has it translated into? Even the mainline Lymmy units were hard to shift, and will only end up as glorified loco-hauled Mk1's.

Unfortunately the only preserved multiple unit to see use on the mainline in the UK is the Hastings unit, which is subsidised by a commercially run depot operation, vast numbers of spares, and needs ordinary charter passengers, not enthusiasts, to be viable. It also has an internal ambience that the these NIR units dont have.

Chris

 

[4SRKT]

It also has an internal ambience that the these NIR units dont have.

It doesn't.

 

[Drimnagh Road]

The problem with the RPSI is that it is very institutionalised and the main people have been there for decades, and they don't want change, and in particular don't want diesel.

They have preserved a rake of Cravens and immiediatly set about painting them in a blue livery that quite frankly is as unauthentic as the film Raising the Titanic. Cravens never wore blue on Irish Rail. Why paint them blue? Because somebody thought they looked nice and decided to do it. That's what your dealing with.

I will be making my annual donation to more worthy causes this year.

 

[NIR111Class]

Unfortunately the only preserved multiple unit to see use on the mainline in the UK is the Hastings unit, which is subsidised by a commercially run depot operation, vast numbers of spares, and needs ordinary charter passengers, not enthusiasts, to be viable. It also has an internal ambience that the these NIR units dont have.

Chris

You forget that the 80 Class is basically an Irish hastings unit. It is mechanically identical to any BR Southern unit with a 4SRKT engine.

But the Hastings unit's preservation society could be inspiring...

 

[Techniquest]

If it happens, it would be excellent. I hope there's enough interest, as the Class 80s are brilliant to travel on!

 

[Flying Snail]

The problem with the RPSI is that it is very institutionalised and the main people have been there for decades, and they don't want change, and in particular don't want diesel.

They have preserved a rake of Cravens and immiediatly set about painting them in a blue livery that quite frankly is as unauthentic as the film Raising the Titanic. Cravens never wore blue on Irish Rail. Why paint them blue? Because somebody thought they looked nice and decided to do it. That's what your dealing with.

I will be making my annual donation to more worthy causes this year.

My feeling about the (Steam)RPSI pretty much match yours, the GMs they have were bought by individual members who I hope have the funds to keep them in running order. The blue cravens are a terrible sight, but I suppose they do match two of the RPSI steam locos don't they.

 

[langerdan712]

Wouldn't agree with either of ye lads.

When a full rake of blue cravens is up and fully operational behind a GNR steam loco such as no.85 at full belt on one of the mainlines it'll be something to see. I'm not so sure about the livery at the moment and i think somebody inside the RPSI with computer skills should do a mock image of a full rake of cravens behind a loco at full steam of behind the pair of GM's.

Steph, great idea to preserve a class 80 but like Flying Snail has said the people who have bought the 141s are doing so with their own money, paying for almost everything to do with them. Not only that but they are a tactical thing to be in possession of, if the IE/NIR is short on locos it may hire them out for use on pilot duties or ballast duties.

Also, you would have to come in with your own funding and set up a group to help you, maybe by setting up your own or something? In my opinion and please just take it as constructive criticism but unless you can work or offer funding it would be unfair for the RPSI on those members just interested in seeing steam running, to buy a class 80 and then expect a dedicated group of volunteers just to do it. I'm sure if a group came in to do the job they'd oblige. Just constructive criticism sorry if I'm a bit negative about it.

 

[NIR111Class]

To be honest I wasn't really expecting to sit and watch the Society do it on their own. I would be giving donations dedicated to purchasing a Class 80. I forgot the mention that in the letter so, my mistake!

But really it would be tough to do it with our own society because there aren't many enthusiasts in Ireland at all, nevermind NIR multiple unit enthusiasts.
Obviously we would need to find a base to keep the unit and its spare parts also.

The reason I wrote that letter, is because times are desperate and those units won't be around for long when the C4Ks start coming in. I won't be able to do it alone, I'm not exactly a millionaire like the lone RPSI members who probably bought the 141s single-handedly.

Right now writing a letter and donating to the RPSI is the only thing I can do. But if there are any more enthusiasts out there willing to buy an 80 Class at risk then we'll give it a shot at forming our society for it.

 

[langerdan712]

The guys who bought the 141s are far from being millionaires! Similar to the lads over in the UK who regularly set up preservation groups and societies. That's always the problem with setting up and funding groups, I for one would be very interested and would join as a member if you formed such a society and I believe there'd be a big following but working members is always an issue with these projects. I for one wouldn't be able to work as I'm living alot further south than the Border.

What you need to do is first get a group around yourselves, then approach NIR/Translink about the possibility and then getting prices etc... Unfortunately, Whitehead from when I was there looks fairly limited space wise and the unit would certainly not be under cover unfortunately.

The price would be in the region I would guesstimate including spare parts etc... around 20k ish including spare parts maybe less? But if you want this project to succeed you'll need a lot of support.

 

[GM078]

If there are enough people out there interested in preserving an 80 class (or indeed any unit) the best course of action would be to follow the example of the people who wanted BGMs preserved. They pooled money and volunteers with a view to getting a 141, along with 121 class No.134, preserved in working order. Similarly, private individuals gave money to the RPSI to preserve locomotives 141 and 142. They also offered to provide resources to maintain the locos. The Cravens were also purchased by a sydincate of members. It's not the easiest course of action but sometimes you've got to go the extra mile to get what you want.

A few points though, the 80 class would need some way of paying for itself. The 141s can be run with the existing RPSI carriages which earn revenue on steam trips. The 80s by their nature need to generate enough revenue to pay for their upkeep. Realistically, can two or three 80 class tours be run year after year with a big turnout? By turn out I mean paying passengers, not lineside photographers. I'm not trying to be cynical, it would be lovely to see a restored set in NIR maroon roaming about the system. But is it feasible? Also remember you can only rely on the enthusiast market (limited in Ireland) to fill diesel trips - the general public only want steam.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The problem with the RPSI is that it is very institutionalised and the main people have been there for decades, and they don't want change, and in particular don't want diesel.

Not really, there's plenty of young blood both in Whitehead and in Dublin. Likewise some of the council members have only been there for the past half a decade or so. There's quite a few diesel enthusiasts in the Society as well.

They have preserved a rake of Cravens and immiediatly set about painting them in a blue livery that quite frankly is as unauthentic as the film Raising the Titanic. Cravens never wore blue on Irish Rail. Why paint them blue? Because somebody thought they looked nice and decided to do it. That's what your dealing with.

The livery was chosen by the people who gave up their time to work on the project. Anyone who wanted to could have signed up to help if they wanted to. It's not really fair to complain from the sidelines when people are giving up their weekends to work on the carriages while the rest of the rail community are out gricing.

IÉ doesn't want privately owned stock running in orange/black, which was (with two variants) the only livery they carried in service. There are already two sets (heritage and mk2) in green. Those who worked on the repaint felt that blue would be different.

Although there have been some enthusiasts who are not happy with the livery (you can't please everyone), there are some who like it too, as evidenced by comments on other sites:


http://irishrailwaynews.multiply.com/journal/item/5555/Blue_Livery


http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/reply/30390/1541-New-Craven-Livery#reply-30390

 

[cravensrule]

To be honest I wasn't really expecting to sit and watch the Society do it on their own. I would be giving donations dedicated to purchasing a Class 80. I forgot the mention that in the letter so, my mistake!

this is a great idea.

i am a member of the rpsi too and would like to see a lot of things preserved.
i agree that whitehead isnt exactly empty and that maybe a new home would have to be found for any railcars

the best way forward is to get a few like minded individuals together raise funds and a viable plan and then approach either the rpsi or downpatrick.

as gm said they have to be revenue earners and unfortunatly gricers taking pictures dont really help contribute to running and preservation costs.
can 80 class units work past connolly if not then their route availability is restricted

re the blue cravens i originally was sceptical of the colour but now like it .

i hope a railcar is saved but it will be an uphill struggle

 

[NIR111Class]

It depends if we could have enough enthusiasts raring to get the project going.
So far from this thread it seems quite a few people want to get it started. I've been thinking long and hard about it and researched how Hastings Diesels Limited managed to purchase and preserve 1001 and 1013. They first operated 1001 on the Swanage Railway and Kent and East Sussex Railway six years before it was approved for main line operation.

But a problem would be finding a rail yard to store our DEMU. The old disused freight yard at Adelaide I was thinking would be a good place. But I've seen on the Irish Railway News forums that it is to be turned into a railcar maintenance facility. If there is enough space though we could be able to store the Class 80. The only other option is York Road. As far as I know the Hastings unit is stored at St. Leonards depot, which seems to still be in use by St. Leonards Railway Engeering Limited.

Storing an 80 Class at either Adelaide or York Road could be useful as there could be workers that still know how to maintain the unit. But I'm still thinking that it would be impossible and that we would definitely need to find our own base.

As far as I can see we have quite a few people here with a vision of preserving a Class 80 DEMU. Who here is willing to form our own society for it?

 

[Chris125]

What sets the Hastings unit apart is that its owned, run and maintained by people who used to work on them, in their own commercially-run depot with a a large number of spares including whole vehicles helping to lower costs and give a financial cushion, such as when the unit was out of use awaiting CDL to be installed. I doubt trying to replicate such a setup is realistic in this case, and the lack of any other mainline DMU or EMU in the UK suggests it wont be easy doing without.

Chris

 

[4SRKT]

Ireland's preservation movement is very far behind GB's, due to the lack of interest in railways generally throughout the population in general. This is obvious in that there are no preserved lines of the type common throughout GB. This says nothing detrimental about the enthusiasm or dedication of the Irish enthusiast, other than that he is operating as a much smaller minority, in a much more disinterested environment, than his GB counterpart.

To preserve a DMU here requires a preserved line. The same would be true in Ireland, but there is no suitable line. Locos are different as they can haul stock. The only possible solution would be to come to some sort of arrangement with Translink to maintain the unit to a high standard and operate on NIR in revenue earning service. This in practice could only mean the Portrush branch. It would almost be the equivalent of preserving the set and leasing it back to NIR for this purpose, freeing up a CAF set to strengthen workings elsewhere, much as First ScotRail lease 67s and mk IIs on the Fife Circle to allow 158s to strengthen other peak workings, or FGW keep a bubble car to prevent them having to use a 153 on the Bute Road shuttle. The preserved set would then live at Coleraine during the week, returning as required to York Road for maintenance at the weekends.

 

[GM078]

I can see Portrush area residents complaining that they were getting old trains while everywhere else got new ones (a fair enough argument it would be too), to be honest unless Translink was facing a rolling stock shortage (in which case it would be a good solution) there would be little incentive for them to do such a thing. After all, they would only be doing it to appease some enthusiasts, I'm doubtful that large numbers of them would use it regularly, while providing customers with an older (pushing 40 years) train while every other town on the system has one made in the 2000s or later.

I don't mean to be overly negative but such things would need to be looked at.

I think the only solution (unless people are happy to store one in a barn or something like that) would be for one to work on a preserved line. The problem then is, as pointed out by 4SRKT, is that there are no preserved lines on the same scale as the UK in Ireland. There is the DCDR, which is a very worthwhile project but on a smaller scale to UK mainland lines. The last time I was in Downpatrick I got the impression space is very much at a premium there, I don't know if it would have much commercial potential there either. Where else could you put one? In theory maybe someone with a bit of land could buy one and store it there statically just for the sake of preserving one. The ITG locos at Moyasta are stored on West Clare Railway land, though I believe there are plans to construct some sort of storage building there (permission for a museum building got turned down). A class A55 is cosmetically displayed in a pub in Castlerea.

So I think if an 80 class has any chance of being preserved in Ireland, people will have to come up with, and fund, some realistic way of storing it, maybe even going as far as buying land, etc... If not maybe it'll just have to be accepted when the last one is scrapped.

Sad but then again, it wouldn'd be the first time. Only four distinct GSR steam loco classes survived out of the many (hundred plus ?)that once existed (classes B1a, J15, K2 and J30). The GNR(I) the same amount (classes Q, S, V and that 2-4-2T in Cultra). Only three GSR built standard gauge carriages survive...two of which are minus bogies. The CIÉ diesel fleet seems to be the only one well represented in preservation (classes A, B101, B113, B121, B141, B181, C201, E421, G601/611, and, arguably, AEC 2600). As I said, it would be a pity no 80 class to survive (but at least there is one is sort of preserved in England), but it will be up to those interested to put together a feasible plan, with their own funding and rescoures if anything is to happen.

 

[4SRKT]

I can see Portrush area residents complaining that they were getting old trains while everywhere else got new ones (a fair enough argument it would be too), to be honest unless Translink was facing a rolling stock shortage (in which case it would be a good solution) there would be little incentive for them to do such a thing. After all, they would only be doing it to appease some enthusiasts, I'm doubtful that large numbers of them would use it regularly, while providing customers with an older (pushing 40 years) train while every other town on the system has one made in the 2000s or later.

I don't mean to be overly negative but such things would need to be looked at. .

I don't for one moment expect this to happen, so you're not really being negative. I was only saying that in the absence of a preserved line it's the only possible way I can see an 80 being preserved.

Well, not quite the only way. Bringing a set over here and reequipping it with standard gauge B5 bogies on the DTS and ex-class 73 bogies on the DMBS would work. Maybe that's the answer.

 

[NIR111Class]

One aspect I'm unsure about is the price.

If we're going to run it on Downpatrick or store it in a farm barn or whatever, how much will it be to actually buy a unit.

 

[Flying Snail]

One aspect I'm unsure about is the price.

If we're going to run it on Downpatrick or store it in a farm barn or whatever, how much will it be to actually buy a unit.

Purchase price is only a small part of the likely cost, what is much more critical is how much everything else would cost. Even as a static store it will cost a fair amount to buy/rent the space to put it and transport it wherever.

Keeping it in running order will be an ongoing expense far in excess of purchase price, there are plenty of examples of stock bought with good intentions and enough cash to purchase but ended up scrapped as the ongoing costs mounted up.

 

[GM078]

I don't know what exactly the cost would be but as pointed out above it's likely the costs of storing/site acquisition would be far higher than the cost of the vehicle(s) itself. Adding to the costs would be the need to buy spare parts from NIR while they can still be obtained, unless of course it is purely for static display. Also, if the units themselves have parts with good resale potential (I doubt it in the case of the 80 class) that would drive the price up further. I think the ITG needed to raise around €8500 to purchase a BGM loco, as to what NIR would charge for a complete 80 class set I've no idea but that's the only figure for Irish stock I've seen published off the top of my head.

It's probable NIR would not agree to sell the unit without proof of plans (including ability to pay for them) to store the set, otherwise there would be a risk that they would be stuck with someone's rolling stock on their property indefinitely waiting for a site to be found.

 

[K9-70]

If I'm not mistaken, there's one 80 Class trailer stored in a yard somewhere in Co. Antrim.

Even if a 2/3 car 80 class set was to be preserved, it's unlikely that NIR/Translink would allow it permission to run on the network once the new trains enter service.

The only possible way would be for NIR/Translink to retain one 80 class set for sandite duties during the Autum months and run special excursions during the spring/summer months with the same set.

K9-70