Cross London transfer with National Rail tickets

[185143]

What exactly are you entitled to when using a National Rail ticket with a Maltese Cross?

Is it simply a zone 1 tube journey, with no entitlement to resume, or does it have to be between the relevant London termini? Eg: could a passenger with a Milton Keynes-Sevenoaks Off Peak return instead use the ticket to travel on LU between Charing Cross and Paddington? Obviously with the understanding that to then travel onwards to Euston, one would have to pay the relevant fare. Seems pointless to pay twice if I'm not required to.

 

[Springs Branch]

I'm sure this question has been asked before - along with slight permutations of it.

I don't know the precise letter-of-the-law on entitlements, but IIRC the practical outcome was that LU barriers or staff will pretty much always allow exit with a Maltese Cross ticket at a station in Zone 1.

It doesn't need to be an Underground station at a National Rail terminal, nor necessarily on your correct cross-London route. But once out of the Underground, you can't re-enter on that ticket.

So exiting at Paddington shouldn't be a problem but, as you say, you would need to pay another fare to re-enter the Underground.

Similarly, if you wanted to break your journey on the direct CX-Euston via Northern Line route and exited at - say - Tottenham Court Road, you would need to pay again to resume your Tube journey to Euston.

I'm relying on memory for the above and happy to be corrected if others know different.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Oct 2022 ==

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Since posting, I've found this link on the National Rail Enquiries website which seems to indicate you cannot "officially" exit at any old Zone 1 LU station, rather it needs to be a station where a plausible connection to a National Rail service is available, plus needs to be a break on the "route of the through journey being made".

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/Travelling-to-london.aspx#travelling_connect

You are allowed to ‘break your transfer journey' once and leave the Underground, Elizabeth line or DLR at any intermediate station, e.g. if you are travelling on the Underground between Victoria and Euston, you can exit at Oxford Circus. However, if you subsequently wish to continue your journey by Underground you will have to purchase another ticket or use Pay as you go to travel to Euston.

List of London Underground, Elizabeth line, and DLR Stations between which single/return tickets valid for travel ‘via London' may be used - subject to route of the through journey being made

Abbey Wood Aldgate Amersham Baker Street
Balham Bank Barking Battersea Power Station
Blackfriars Blackhorse Road Brixton Canada Water
Cannon Street Charing Cross Ealing Broadway Edgware Road
Elephant & Castle Embankment Euston Euston Square
Farringdon Finsbury Park Greenwich (DLR) Highbury & Islington
Kensington Olympia Kentish Town Kings Cross St Pancras Lancaster Gate
Lewisham (DLR) Limehouse Liverpool Street London Bridge
Marylebone Moorgate Old Street Paddington
Queens Park Richmond Seven Sisters Shadwell
Shepherds Bush Southwark Stratford Stratford International (DLR)
Tottenham Hale Tower Hill Upminster Vauxhall
Victoria Walthamstow Central Waterloo West Brompton
West Ham West Hampstead Whitechapel Wimbledon
Woolwich Arsenal (DLR) Woolwich (Elizabeth line)

Some London termini stations are within a short distance of one another and tickets showing the cross-London ‘+' symbol will be valid to make the connection between them at street level.

Despite the NRE chapter and verse, I seem to recall in reality there probably isn't a problem exiting an Underground station, but definitely don't expect to be allowed back in to continue your journey on the same (+) ticket. Others may be able to confirm this.

 

[miklcct]

I'd say that the intent is to allow transferring between the relevant stations (not necessarily in zone 1). And, it is explicitly stated that you are allowed to stop short on your transfer as well.

For example, holding a ticket to Aylesbury, according to the letter, you are allowed to stop short the transfer at Wembley Park, with the knowledge that you need to use another way to get to Harrow-on-the-Hill.

 

[plugwash]

What exactly are you entitled to when using a National Rail ticket with a Maltese Cross?

There is a list of allowed transfer stations. Your transfer stations should be "appropriate to the route of the through journey being made". It does not explicitly say what routes you can or cannot take between your transfer stations, but I would assume that the route must be at least somewhat reasonable.

You are explicitly allowed to end your underground journey short, and this is not limited to interchange locations. Indeed the official example given is Oxford Circus which is not an interchange station. However my understanding is if you exit at a non-interchange station you will have to be manually let through the barriers.

There is no mention of zones, and indeed many of the transfer stations are outside zone 1. Out of interest I decided to go through the transfer stations list and split it by zone to get a feel for how far out the transfer stations are.

Zone 1: Aldgate, Baker Street, Bank, Battersea power station, Blackfriars,Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Edgware Road, Embankment, Euston, Euston Square, Farringdon, Kings Cross St Pancras, Lancaster Gate, Liverpool Street, London Bridge, Marylebone, Moorgate, Old Street, Paddington, Southwark, Tower Hill, Victoria, Waterloo,

Zone 1+2: Elephant and Castle

Zone 2: Brixton, Canada water, Finsbury Park, Highbury & Islington,Kensington (Olympia), Kentish Town, Limehouse, Queen's Park,Shadwell, Shepherd's Bush, Vauxhall, West Brompton, West Hampstead, Whitechapel,

Zone 2+3: Greenwich (DLR), Lewisham (DLR), Stratford, Stratford International (DLR), West Ham,

Zone 3: Balham, Blackhorse Road, Ealing Broadway, Seven Sisters, Tottenham Hale, Walthamstow Central, Wimbledon,

Zone 4: Abbey Wood, Barking,Richmond, Woolwich Arsenal, Woolwich (Elizabeth line)

Zone 6: Upminster,

Zone 9: Amersham

It wouldn't surpise me if in-practice TfL let people out at any central-london station, simply because knowing what transfer stations are or are not reasonable for a particular pair of rail stations, and then determining what is or is-not a reasonable route between those stations is too much effort.

For example, holding a ticket to Aylesbury, according to the letter, you are allowed to stop short the transfer at Wembley Park, with the knowledge that you need to use another way to get to Harrow-on-the-Hill.

Curiously neither of the Harrow stations is on the list of transfer stations, even though both seem like perfectly reasonable places to transfer to/from the tube for a cross-london journey.

 

[miklcct]

Curiously neither of the Harrow stations is on the list of transfer stations, even though both seem like perfectly reasonable places to transfer to/from the tube for a cross-london journey.

The Bakerloo station is effectively covered by Queen's Park, and for the Metropolitan station, I presume Amersham does the job as well.

 

[Springs Branch]

Curiously neither of the Harrow stations is on the list of transfer stations, even though both seem like perfectly reasonable places to transfer to/from the tube for certain cross-London journeys.

This does seem odd as both are potentially useful interchanges.

Regarding @185143's specific example about using a Sevenoaks ✠ Milton Keynes Central ticket to break at Paddington LU: The National Rail Enquiries Journey Planner gives a satisfyingly long list of valid itineraries (at the normal through fare) using the Bakerloo Line from Charing Cross via Paddington to Harrow & Wealdstone, then changing to a LNWR service at Harrow & Wealdstone. Of course, this is providing you input suitable parameters into the planner - Change at: Charing Cross ; Avoid: Euston ; Change at: Harrow & Wealdstone.

It would be a slow trip, which I think you can do with just two changes of train early and later in the day, but travelling during peak and midday periods you would need to change either at Queens Park and Watford Jn, or at Harrow & Wealdstone and Watford Jn. (All academic, I know, since the OP is intending to continue from Euston at an extra fare)

So, in the infinitesimal chance that the OP gets asked at the Paddington LU gateline why he's using a ticket to Milton Keynes Central there, the answer would be that he had intended using the Bakerloo through to H&W and changing there (as permitted by the NRE Journey Planner) but has decided to break his journey short at Paddington.

 

[Mojo]

Curiously neither of the Harrow stations is on the list of transfer stations, even though both seem like perfectly reasonable places to transfer to/from the tube for a cross-london journey.

The list is not a list of the only places you can transfer but the stations at which tickets are valid to enter the Underground/DLR system, and list of stations the ticket gates are programmed to accept tickets with the Maltese cross for entry and exit. At Both Harrow on the Hill and Harrow & Wealdstone tickets have joint availability between LU and NR services therefore dependent on the origin / destination tickets may be valid on either operators’ services.

 

[matt_world2004]

There is a list of allowed transfer stations. Your transfer stations should be "appropriate to the route of the through journey being made". It does not explicitly say what routes you can or cannot take between your transfer stations, but I would assume that the route must be at least somewhat reasonable.

You are explicitly allowed to end your underground journey short, and this is not limited to interchange locations. Indeed the official example given is Oxford Circus which is not an interchange station. However my understanding is if you exit at a non-interchange station you will have to be manually let through the barriers.

There is no mention of zones, and indeed many of the transfer stations are outside zone 1. Out of interest I decided to go through the transfer stations list and split it by zone to get a feel for how far out the transfer stations are.

Zone 1: Aldgate, Baker Street, Bank, Battersea power station, Blackfriars,Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Edgware Road, Embankment, Euston, Euston Square, Farringdon, Kings Cross St Pancras, Lancaster Gate, Liverpool Street, London Bridge, Marylebone, Moorgate, Old Street, Paddington, Southwark, Tower Hill, Victoria, Waterloo,

Zone 1+2: Elephant and Castle

Zone 2: Brixton, Canada water, Finsbury Park, Highbury & Islington,Kensington (Olympia), Kentish Town, Limehouse, Queen's Park,Shadwell, Shepherd's Bush, Vauxhall, West Brompton, West Hampstead, Whitechapel,

Zone 2+3: Greenwich (DLR), Lewisham (DLR), Stratford, Stratford International (DLR), West Ham,

Zone 3: Balham, Blackhorse Road, Ealing Broadway, Seven Sisters, Tottenham Hale, Walthamstow Central, Wimbledon,

Zone 4: Abbey Wood, Barking,Richmond, Woolwich Arsenal, Woolwich (Elizabeth line)

Zone 6: Upminster,

Zone 9: Amersham

It wouldn't surpise me if in-practice TfL let people out at any central-london station, simply because knowing what transfer stations are or are not reasonable for a particular pair of rail stations, and then determining what is or is-not a reasonable route between those stations is too much effort.


Curiously neither of the Harrow stations is on the list of transfer stations, even though both seem like perfectly reasonable places to transfer to/from the tube for a cross-london journey.

This is because they are interavailable stations and you can yluse your ticket there like any national rail ticket.

 

[bicbasher]

I'm surprised Clapham North isn't a transfer station with Clapham High Street being close by. it's a plausible transfer to get to Clapham Junction from the Morden branch of the Northern line.

 

[Dstock7080]

I'm surprised Clapham North isn't a transfer station with Clapham High Street being close by.

It already is.