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Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

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nw1

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I am absolutely not doing that. The point is that, both remarks were wrong and unacceptable. But there is HUGE difference between (a) making an unacceptable statement, and almost immediately apologising for it and making it clear that you accept your comments were wrong, and (b) making an unacceptable statement and then going on, after your comments are challenged, for months on end to keep making out that what you said was fine and that you are proud of it.

Can you really not see that difference?

As I said, the difference is in what the MPs said. Use of a word like "scum" is scarcely the same as using "bomb" and the name of the MP in the same sentence, with the MP the target of this hypothetical "bomb". Particularly after Jo Cox.

Look at what I said about the equal unacceptability of a Labour MP threatening to give a bomb to a prominent Tory - even if they apologised - to show that what I am saying is not biased.

In most jobs you'd be dismissed for making such threats against a colleague. I note that there has not been a North Wiltshire byelection in the past year.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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I do believe what I have said, I'm afraid. If you take the wrong decisions at 16, should you be screwed for life?
It was your good self who made reference to the educational establishment of Winchester as the place of education of the person that you made reference to and it is a known fact that particular school has a wide-ranging curriculum which is overseen by teaching staff who tend to widen the knowledge base of their pupils and given a grounding for further educational attainments.

Whilst I did not attend such an educational establishment as Winchester, from 1956, I attended St Bede's College in Manchester which was of the highest educational level as Manchester Grammar School and Bolton School, two other top schools in our region. Such was the high standard of teaching there, I obtained 12 "0" level passes (3 of which I took a year early) and 6 "A" level passes which made excellent grounding for my degree-level studies at Manchester University that culminated in my obtaining a First in Mathematics in 1966. All told together, this provided an excellent entrance into the field of industry and commerce and by the time I reached my mid-30s, I was in Senior Managerial positions. I retired in 2010 (the year prior to joining this website) as the Senior Head of Projects at the consultancy.

Life is what you personally make of it.
 
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nw1

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It was your good self who made reference to the educational establishment of Winchester as the place of education of the person that you made reference to and it is a known fact that particular school has a wide-ranging curriculum which is overseen by teaching staff who tend to widen the knowledge base of their pupils and given a grounding for further educational attainments.

Whilst I did not attend such an educational establishment as Winchester, from 1956, I attended St Bede's College in Manchester which was of the highest educational level as Manchester Grammar School and Bolton School, two other top schools in our region. Such was the high standard of teaching there, I obtained 12 "0" level passes (3 of which I took a year early) and 6 "A" level passes which made excellent grounding for my degree-level studies at Manchester University that culminated in my obtaining a First in Mathematics in 1966. All told together, this provided an excellent entrance into the field of industry and commerce and by the time I reached my mid-30s, I was in Senior Managerial positions. I retired in 2010 (the year prior to joining this website) as the Senior Head of Projects at the consultancy.
That's absolutely fine. I myself am not working-class and did not drop out of school at 16 (I want to make that clear, lest I be labelled with hypocrisy in what I say) but I don't believe that someone should be put down and considered unsuitable for senior political positions just because they are.

Life is what you personally make of it.

As indeed it has been for Ms Rayner. The fact she is where she is suggests she has pulled herself up, which I thought was supposed to be an admirable quality as far as Tories were concerned?
 

brad465

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YouGov have released a poll that covers Sunak's first 2 days as PM. As expected the Labour lead has narrowed, but they are still 28 points ahead. Another week could see a further narrowing, but at the moment it's looking unlikely that the gap will significantly close:


Westminster Voting Intention: LAB: 51% (-5) CON: 23% (+4) LDM: 9% (-1) REF: 6% (+1) GRN: 4% (=) via @YouGov, 25-26 Oct (Changes with 21 Oct)
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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YouGov have released a poll that covers Sunak's first 2 days as PM. As expected the Labour lead has narrowed, but they are still 28 points ahead. Another week could see a further narrowing, but at the moment it's looking unlikely that the gap will significantly close:

There are rather more than two days in which matters can change should this Government go full-term.
 
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nw1

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There are rather more than two days in which matters can change should this Government go full-term.

But perhaps, on balance, the odds are against the Tories (even though Sunak has more propensity for charming people than did Truss).

I suspect Labour will be further ahead by the end of the winter, though the gap may narrow a fair amount in the happier times of next spring and summer.

After the appointment of Braverman I'd now say 65% Labour largest party, 35% Tories largest party at the next election. This is assuming a May or June 2024 date though still hopeful one can be forced sooner.
 

DynamicSpirit

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The right prefer to make up lies instead, anyone remember Jeremy Corbyns “dancing” on remembrance day or his photoshopped “Russian hat”.

Umm. That Russian hat thing has been fact-checked, and it appears to be established that it was not photoshopped. That hat appeared to be taller as a (very likely, unanticipated and unintended) result of Newsnight using a curved screen. See for example https://www.channel4.com/news/factc...eremy-corbyn-to-make-him-look-close-to-russia.

The dancing on remembrance day thing was awful and - to my mind - indefensible. I'm no fan of Corbyn, but he did suffer a lot at the hands of the media. The newspapers concerned did subsequently remove that particular story.

But, I think you're on very shaky ground if you want to imply that, in the UK, the right lies significantly more than the left (I realise you didn't say that explicitly, but that seems to be the thrust of your post). To give a couple of counter-examples: Remember how, last year, Labour and the LibDems were up in arms about how Sunak (allegedly) had cut taxes for banks. Except he hadn't: In his October 2021 budget, Sunak increased the tax that banks pay (More precisely, he increased the base corporation tax rate that they paid, while reducing a banking surcharge, with the net result that overall tax rates for banks increased). Yet Labour and LibDem politicians continuously claimed that he'd reduced taxes for banks - an outright, bare-faced lie that they repeated over and over again.

Or think about how Labour are always making out that, on health, we have a binary choice between a fully nationalised NHS and an American-style system in which anyone without hyper-expensive insurance gets basically bankrupted if they become ill, and how Labour further, tend to make out that any changes to the NHS the Tories propose amount to Americanisation. That is also to my mind a bare-faced lie: The fact that just about every other European country has an insurance-based system, and most of them work pretty well and not at all like the US system, shows that it's not a binary choice - but that doesn't seem to stop Labour from continually repeating that lie (admittedly, usually in an implied way rather than by claiming it directly).

I'm not trying to do a tit-for-tat here: I appreciate that a lie on one side does not excuse a lie on the other side, and I'm sure you wouldn't have to look hard to find more examples of lying by both the left and the right (Yes that Boris NHS bus during the referendum...). And like I said, Jeremy Corbyn's treatment at the hands of the press was awful. But the point is, it's not at all clear that a claim that the it's largely the right that makes up lies is correct.
 

Howardh

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YouGov have released a poll that covers Sunak's first 2 days as PM. As expected the Labour lead has narrowed, but they are still 28 points ahead. Another week could see a further narrowing, but at the moment it's looking unlikely that the gap will significantly close:

Have to wait until he makes his mind up r/e the triple lock, and see what the polls say then.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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And the Titanic floated for several hours after hitting the iceberg.
I fail to understand your comparison. The number of months left until the full-term expiry of the Government is not at all comparative to a period of but a few hours that you state above. Have you inside information that this Government will fall in "several hours time"?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Have to wait until he makes his mind up r/e the triple lock, and see what the polls say then.
Has it now been stated that the delayed item will be part of a Full Autumn Statement, rather than what was anticipated.
 
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nw1

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I fail to understand your comparison. The number of months left until the full-term expiry of the Government is not at all comparative to a period of but a few hours that you state above. Have you inside information that this Government will fall in "several hours time"?
As a mathematician you should understand the concept of ratio. ;)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Have to wait until he makes his mind up r/e the triple lock, and see what the polls say then.

Though I think Truss was still well behind before that decision was made, so not sure it'll make a vast difference.
 

py_megapixel

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I liked Sunak’s speech. I voted for him in August, and I think he’ll make a good Prime Minister and restore trust in the party after Laughable Liz and Bumbling BoJo.
Sorry, any trust I had in the Conservative Party is completely gone. And it's never coming back. I know many people who feel the same, and I sincerely hope it's representative of general population, because the only way we will avoid a fiasco like this again is if these people never get into power again.

I wish I could say that I understood why some people (other than the rich and famous, or politicans' close friends and relatives) might still want to support them. I just can't think of anything, other than people just taking everything they are told, however disreputable the source, at face value, or possibly a feeling that the alternatives are even worse, though I'm not sure how one would arrive at that conclusion short of some strange vendetta against one of the other parties.

Everything the Conservatives supposedly used to stand for - law and order; fiscal responsibility (whatever that means); arguably democracy and personal liberty - has completely and utterly gone. Never mind a whole country - they couldn't be trusted to run a local library.
 
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Fragezeichnen

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I fail to understand your comparison. The number of months left until the full-term expiry of the Government is not at all comparative to a period of but a few hours that you state above. Have you inside information that this Government will fall in "several hours time"?

The RMS Torytanic, under the command of Cpt. Cameron, hit an iceberg and was fatally holed beneath the waterline some time ago, and no amount of replacing the officers and steering this way or the other can now save it.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The RMS Torytanic, under the command of Cpt. Cameron, hit an iceberg and was fatally holed beneath the waterline some time ago, and no amount of replacing the officers and steering this way or the other can now save it.
Did the good ship Corbyn Momentum then come along, rescuing the survivors and return home to the adulation of the public and serve the country well for many years in the future?
 
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WizCastro197

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Did the good ship Corbyn Momentum then come along, rescuing the survivors and return home to the adulation of the public and serve the country well for many years in the future?
No, It was the SS Starmer obviously! Corbyn Momentum refused to help survivors of RMS Torytanic so therefore its status as an RMS ship was suspended.

(In Allusion to the actual ship that didn't help)
 
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WizCastro197

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But wasn’t it part of the Red Star line? At least, that is what the captain of the Torytanic told everybody.
Originally yes, although after the sinking of the Torytanic, due to such vilification from the public and crew members Corbyn Momentum was sold back to its original owners, of course the Socialist Campaign Group Star Line.
 

Eyersey468

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It was only when I looked into her past life that I saw she left school with no qualifications and pregnant.
While I don't agree with a lot of her views she has done well for herself.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Sorry, any trust I had in the Conservative Party is completely gone. And it's never coming back. I know many people who feel the same, and I sincerely hope it's representative of general population, because the only way we will avoid a fiasco like this again is if these people never get into power again.

I wish I could say that I understood why some people (other than the rich and famous, or politicans' close friends and relatives) might still want to support them. I just can't think of anything, other than people just taking everything they are told, however disreputable the source, at face value, or possibly a feeling that the alternatives are even worse, though I'm not sure how one would arrive at that conclusion short of some strange vendetta against one of the other parties.

Everything the Conservatives supposedly used to stand for - law and order; fiscal responsibility (whatever that means); arguably democracy and personal liberty - has completely and utterly gone. Never mind a whole country - they couldn't be trusted to run a local library.
To be honest what little trust I had in any of the politicians is gone
 

Gloster

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The Independent (via my yahoo news feed) is reporting that The Speaker suspended the Commons’ sitting for an hour this morning because Mordaunt failed to turn up on time to answer questions (she doesn’t have a deputy): not a good start. (Reports that a Mr Sunak was seen outside the Ladies toilet with a tube of superglue are entirely part of my fevered imagination.)
 

Acfb

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32% Labour lead with Redfield and Wilton at the same that Sunak is 1% ahead as best PM although take with a grain of salt given what they had for Truss for a while.
 

43096

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Mordaunt won't last very long, i wonder if she or Cruella will be first to leave the cabinet.
Hopefully Cruella will go first. She has that perma-smirk on her face (a bit like the one Priti Patel also has) that really needs wiping off.
 

brad465

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I suspect she is only there as a bullet proof vest for the new PM
Partly that, mainly to appease the ERG. Either way the controversy she's stirring up, including among Tory MPs like Jake Berry, is not helping Sunak's premiership get off to a smooth start.
 

birchesgreen

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Partly that, mainly to appease the ERG. Either way the controversy she's stirring up, including among Tory MPs like Jake Berry, is not helping Sunak's premiership get off to a smooth start.
Well yes she isn't doing a very good job of it, but whats new with her?!
 

Typhoon

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The Independent (via my yahoo news feed) is reporting that The Speaker suspended the Commons’ sitting for an hour this morning because Mordaunt failed to turn up on time to answer questions (she doesn’t have a deputy): not a good start. (Reports that a Mr Sunak was seen outside the Ladies toilet with a tube of superglue are entirely part of my fevered imagination.)
I'm sorry, she had a cast-iron alibi:
The Prime Minister's official spokesperson confirmed that Ms Mordaunt was attending a Privy Council meeting with the King, in her role as Lord President of the Council.

He said the meeting was "prearranged", adding that Ms Mordaunt had "been in touch with the Speaker's office".

The Downing Street official also said that appointing a deputy speaker was "not common", despite there having been a serving deputy in recent months.
Perhaps the fault lies at No 10. Not appointing a deputy Leader of the House (not Speaker, there are deputies for him), even a temporary one. If I remember from Rees-Mogg's days, it isn't the hardest of jobs. Even getting someone to fill in (such as one of the Ministers without anything to do Portfolio, such as Williamson). Isn't it just reading out the business for the following week, then fielding questions on whether they can have a debate all sorts of obscure topics for which the Leader has to find a diplomatic way of saying 'no' most of the time.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...House-of-Commons-suspended-business-questions
 

GusB

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It was only when I looked into her past life that I saw she left school with no qualifications and pregnant.

Coming from Stockport does not automatically make you an ideal candidate to be the MP for Ashton-under-Lyne.
Whoa! That's some serious snobbery.

If you honestly believe what you have stated, you would have a Government full of high-school dropouts who would be totally out of their depth when dealing with their opposite numbers in other national Governments.
More snobbery.

It was your good self who made reference to the educational establishment of Winchester as the place of education of the person that you made reference to and it is a known fact that particular school has a wide-ranging curriculum which is overseen by teaching staff who tend to widen the knowledge base of their pupils and given a grounding for further educational attainments.

Whilst I did not attend such an educational establishment as Winchester, from 1956, I attended St Bede's College in Manchester which was of the highest educational level as Manchester Grammar School and Bolton School, two other top schools in our region. Such was the high standard of teaching there, I obtained 12 "0" level passes (3 of which I took a year early) and 6 "A" level passes which made excellent grounding for my degree-level studies at Manchester University that culminated in my obtaining a First in Mathematics in 1966. All told together, this provided an excellent entrance into the field of industry and commerce and by the time I reached my mid-30s, I was in Senior Managerial positions. I retired in 2010 (the year prior to joining this website) as the Senior Head of Projects at the consultancy.

Life is what you personally make of it.
There we have it, folks: snobbery of the highest order. A prime example of someone who has grown up privileged, but not quite privileged enough to make it to the top. Rather than fighting their own middle-class corner, they seek to kick downwards.

The story about St Bede's College, Manchester Grammar School and getting a First in mathematics at Manchester University is not a new one; quite frankly, it's boring and I don't care.

Unfortunately, these are the views that many Tories hold. Those who have made it against the odds tend to look down on those who didn't quite make it, despite the fact that sometimes it's down to luck and having the right connections.
 

Strathclyder

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Partly that, mainly to appease the ERG. Either way the controversy she's stirring up, including among Tory MPs like Jake Berry, is not helping Sunak's premiership get off to a smooth start.
Not really a surprise at all. Not sure what on earth Sunak thought bringing her back on board was a good idea at all. As a flakjacket for Sunak perhaps, but that's the only reason that makes even a modicum of sense to me.

And the Titanic floated for several hours after hitting the iceberg.
And split in half in the final moments of the sinking.
 

yorksrob

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Whatever.

The so called "government" is nowt but a junta, waiting to be removed at the next general election.
 

birchesgreen

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So possible use of a Gary Glitter tune* in Sunak's latest promo is the latest scandal, quite why he needs another promo has yet to be addressed.

* I don't think it is though the damage is done
 
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