Merseyrail enforcement officers.

[Bobstar]

My Autistic son used Merseyrail and boarded a train at Manor Road, Wirral. There was no facility to purchase a ticket and there was a notice which stated that passengers boarding at this station should purchase a ticket at the next convenient station.

2 stations later he alighted at west Kirby where he intended to purchase a ticket but the enforcement officers would not let him past them in order to get to the ticket office. They told him that he boarded the train at Moreton Station because that's where his friends boarded so he should have paid there. My son tried to explain that he doesn't live in Moreton and did not board at Moreton but the enforcement officers talked over him and would not listen.

He was issued with a Penalty Fare Notice which he produced to me when he came home later. He was so upset because he had been wrongly accused and bullied. He told me that there was a notice stating that he should pay at the next convenient station. I then drove him to the station and he showed me the notice which was in a window. This window was facing sideways on to the train and he would not have seen it if he was still on the train going from Moreton.

I put this in an appeal and posted it back to them. There reply was that it was up to me to prove that he didn't get on at Moreton. I always thought the law of the land was that we were innocent until they could prove us guilty. I now have Daniels Silverman (proactive debt recovery)demanding £84.78.

Any ideas what I should do next would be appreciated as I am not prepared to let these bullies get away with this.

 

[L401CJF]

My Autistic son used Merseyrail and boarded a train at Manor Road, Wirral. There was no facility to purchase a ticket and there was a notice which stated that passengers boarding at this station should purchase a ticket at the next convenient station.

2 stations later he alighted at west Kirby where he intended to purchase a ticket but the enforcement officers would not let him past them in order to get to the ticket office. They told him that he boarded the train at Moreton Station because that's where his friends boarded so he should have paid there. My son tried to explain that he doesn't live in Moreton and did not board at Moreton but the enforcement officers talked over him and would not listen.

He was issued with a Penalty Fare Notice which he produced to me when he came home later. He was so upset because he had been wrongly accused and bullied. He told me that there was a notice stating that he should pay at the next convenient station. I then drove him to the station and he showed me the notice which was in a window. This window was facing sideways on to the train and he would not have seen it if he was still on the train going from Moreton.

I put this in an appeal and posted it back to them. There reply was that it was up to me to prove that he didn't get on at Moreton. I always thought the law of the land was that we were innocent until they could prove us guilty. I now have Daniels Silverman (proactive debt recovery)demanding £84.78.

Any ideas what I should do next would be appreciated as I am not prepared to let these bullies get away with this.

This is quite appalling, but unfortunately not surprising. They often use Carlisle security staff to perform revenue checks, I refer to them as Rent-a-thugs. I can't offer much help or advice, I'm sure somebody will be along to help shortly.

Going forward, when I encounter a closed office of broken ticket machine on Merseyrails network meaning I can't buy at the origin station, I always take a photo as evidence for such events.

 

[furlong]

Firstly, Parliament intended for Penalty Fares to reverse the burden of proof, but in return for that they built a number of protections into the system. When Penalty Fares are available, fare evasion is no longer treated as a criminal matter so it is a less serious situation if a Penalty Fare is imposed on someone who didn't evade their fare deliberately. Another protection is that in some situations your word is accepted unless the company proves otherwise - this appears to be relevant here. Sadly, ignorance of the protections does seem to be more widespread than it should be and this can put people who don't do their research and assert their rights in the correct way at a significant disadvantage.

Firstly, there are 3 levels of appeal. You mention appealing once. Did you follow the formal appeals procedure to do this? If so, how long is it since that first appeal was decided and so are you still within the time limit to submit a second appeal because it sounds like you need to do so if you still can? (But if not, all is not lost.)

Secondly, the response you report sounds incorrect. In law it is for the company to prove that your son did not board at the station he stated he did, not the other way around, and the Appeal Panel - if your appeal was submitted in line with the rules - should know that basic fact. (The company could draw upon witnesses or CCTV to do this, for example, if they cared sufficiently to gather and retain relevant evidence.)

The regulations state:

Appeals – stage one
16
...
(4) Where the appellant makes representations as part of an appeal under this regulation in relation to any of the matters specified in paragraph (5), it is for the operator on whose behalf the
penalty fare was charged to provide evidence that reasonably demonstrates that any fact described by the appellant in relation to any of those matters is not true.
(5) The matters referred to in paragraph (4) are—
(a) in circumstances where the appellant was charged a penalty fare in relation to travelling by, being present on, or leaving a train—
...
(ii) at which station the appellant boarded the train and any preceding train or trains and at which station the appellant intended to leave that train;
...

Don't be surprised if you need to use up all 3 appeals or escalate it beyond that before the rules get applied correctly, but it should make things easier if you write your next appeal with reference to the relevant regulations.

Having established the boarding station, the next limb relies upon the exemption if:

(c) a notice was displayed indicating that the passenger was, or persons generally were, permitted to travel by or be present on the train without having a travel ticket;

Similarly in this case, if he states that there was such a notice, the burden of proof lies with the company to reasonably demonstrate this was not true.

(I wouldn't stress this in this particular case, but the PF actually becomes void merely by establishing it was issued from the wrong station - but then you do have to consider that, while the inspector may challenge the passenger robustly, they basically have to accept the passenger's final word (or else issue the PF from the previous stop which they didn't here), and if they later discover they were lied to about this station, they can still choose to prosecute. Neither of us was there but some inspectors use recording equipment so it might be possible to check the accuracy of the reports of the key conversation.)

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Please could you give us some idea of when the incident was? That's because there are time limits to when someone can appeal, so it may make a difference to whether we suggest following formal procedures, or whether you should get the media and politicians involved.

 

[Watershed]

I think the most important detail would be to have sight of the original Penalty Fare and any emails/correspondence relating to the appeal - with personal details and reference numbers removed.

This way we can conclusively establish whether the initial appeal was brought in time and in the required manner. This is highly relevant because, if a Penalty Fare is appealed in the correct manner and isn't cancelled before the appeals body makes a decision, the train company is no longer allowed to prosecute the passenger in relation to that incident.

This is a valuable protection which means that, at worst, Merseyrail could bring a civil claim against the OP's son - although it appears that for all they "bark" with their debt collectors, train companies don't "bite" in terms of actually pursuing Penalty Fares through the County Court.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This way we can conclusively establish whether the initial appeal was brought in time and in the required manner. This is highly relevant because, if a Penalty Fare is appealed in the correct manner and isn't cancelled before the appeals body makes a decision, the train company is no longer allowed to prosecute the passenger in relation to that incident.

This is a valuable protection which means that, at worst, Merseyrail could bring a civil claim against the OP's son - although it appears that for all they "bark" with their debt collectors, train companies don't "bite" in terms of actually pursuing Penalty Fares through the County Court.

This may be why the OP has received a debt collection letter rather than a Court summons. Merseyrail were burnt on the issue of prosecuting when barred not so long ago (there's a thread on it) and so they're unlikely to try that particular one again.

 

[gray1404]

I think what we need to do is issue a legal Letter Before Action to Merseyrail for failure to make a reasonable adjustments for your Autistic son. If you need help doing this please send me a DM.

This is not the first time their bye law enforcement officers have behaved in this way and I have been on the receiving end of similar treatment so it is time we brought this to an end.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think what we need to do is issue a legal Letter Before Action to Merseyrail for failure to make a reasonable adjustments for your Autistic son. If you need help doing this please send me a DM.

This doesn't seem to be a matter of the Equality Act but a simple case of the company refusing to believe the OP's son boarded where he boarded. As others like @furlong have pointed out, it's for the Train Company to prove their case here.

 

[superkopite]

Does he have an Android phone? Most have location tracking on by default. If you go into Google maps history, it will tell show exactly where he has been and at what times.

 

[Okowsc]

Does he have an Android phone? Most have location tracking on by default. If you go into Google maps history, it will tell show exactly where he has been and at what times.

Google location history lets you edit it.

 

[Bobstar]

This is quite appalling, but unfortunately not surprising. They often use Carlisle security staff to perform revenue checks, I refer to them as Rent-a-thugs. I can't offer much help or advice, I'm sure somebody will be along to help shortly.

Going forward, when I encounter a closed office of broken ticket machine on Merseyrails network meaning I can't buy at the origin station, I always take a photo as evidence for such events.

Thank you for your reply. I have a photo of the notice

 

[SuspectUsual]

Thank you for your reply. I have a photo of the notice

Does your home address support your son's case? ie is it nearer to where he got on the train, and further from where they say he got on?

 

[Watershed]

This may be why the OP has received a debt collection letter rather than a Court summons. Merseyrail were burnt on the issue of prosecuting when barred not so long ago (there's a thread on it) and so they're unlikely to try that particular one again.

Possibly. I'm not at all convinced they have learned anything; indeed they probably just saw it as "one of those cases" that they have to occasionally drop due to insufficient evidence etc.

Google location history lets you edit it.

It does, but it nevertheless does carry weight because Merseyrail would otherwise be alleging that the OP's son has committed fraud. Which is a very serious allegation, requiring credible evidence to back it up.

Thank you for your reply. I have a photo of the notice

That is certainly going to be highly valuable evidence if the matter goes any further.

 

[507020]

In situations like this, both the stations and the trains have CCTV, so Merseyrail themselves have video evidence that he boarded at Manor Road and not Moreton, so why has this not been checked before now as it would have resolved the matter?

 

[nedchester]

Very poor.

My daughter had grief at James Street having found the machine at Capenhurst out of use. She was accused of travelling without a ticket by the inspectors there. I had sent her a screenshot of a tweet that someone had sent out a few minutes before and even then the inspectors claimed the tweet was made up! But they “let her off this time”.

Vile.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Please could you give us some idea of when the incident was? That's because there are time limits to when someone can appeal, so it may make a difference to whether we suggest following formal procedures, or whether you should get the media and politicians involved.

As we don't know the timescale, this will be a little hit and miss. But hopefully there's something which will be helpful:

If you are still in time to make an appeal (or a second or third appeal if previous ones were rejected) you should do so. Various posters above have spelt out how this can be beneficial even if you lose the appeal.

If you are out of time, then my suggestion is to kick up a fuss. Merseyrail (the private company) operates under contract to Merseytravel (part of the Liverpool City Region authority) so complaining to your local councillor and the City Region mayor may pay dividends. And the Liverpool Echo always likes a good story to knock Merseyrail and Merseytravel: charging a penalty and sending bailiffs against a person with autism would be just the sort of story that they would like. I'm not sure if weekly local papers have survived on the Wirral, but if so they would be worth approaching too.

 

[WesternLancer]

In situations like this, both the stations and the trains have CCTV, so Merseyrail themselves have video evidence that he boarded at Manor Road and not Moreton, so why has this not been checked before now as it would have resolved the matter?

Because no one cares what's on the CCTV and it's too much bother for them to check when they can just threaten customers in the hope they pay up. Unless we are talking about an assault / worse / police involvment I reckon you can forget about CCTV.

 

[gray1404]

This doesn't seem to be a matter of the Equality Act but a simple case of the company refusing to believe the OP's son boarded where he boarded. As others like @furlong have pointed out, it's for the Train Company to prove their case here.

As somebody that is legally qualified I do totally disagree with you. Merseyrail have failed to abide by their own disabled persons protection policy and in the opening post we see that the behaviour of the staff members caused the person with autism to come home very upset and distressed because they had been wrongly accused and bullied. This is not acceptable and amounts to discrimination.

Nevertheless I know it's that the original poster has returned since but has not taken me up on my offer to assist with a letter before action or commencing civil legal proceedings.

I suppose they want to take the complaint option via the usual channels.

With regard to the matter at hand there I would simply ignore the letter from the debt collection agency in the absence of wanting to make any further representations. As previously stated Merseyrail are statute barred from pursuing this matter further by virtue of the fats and appeal was submitted.

 

[Bobstar]

Does your home address support your son's case? ie is it nearer to where he got on the train, and further from where they say he got on?

No, but his intention that day was to meet his friends at the final destination on his scooter. Then his friends contacted him to say they were on the train so he joined them when they were at Manor Road Station, 3 stations away. His friends boarded the train at Moreton so the hired thug, I mean enforcement officer decided that my son boarded at the same time and place.

 

[furlong]

enforcement officer decided that my son boarded at the same time and place.

To make any more progress with this thread, you need to confirm some of the facts people are requesting - in particular people need to understand the nature of your 'appeal' so far and the time ranges.

 

[gray1404]

To make any more progress with this thread, you need to confirm some of the facts people are requesting - in particular people need to understand the nature of your 'appeal' so far and the time ranges.

I agree with this. You need to go back through the thread and respond to the specific comments or questions people are making.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The attitude to customers in this industry baffles me more every day. Awful behaviour from the staff there. Becoming all the more common too.

 

[gray1404]

I would also suggest a formal complaint to the appeal body for their staff members failure to apply the penalty fare regulations correctly when dealing with the first appeal.

 

[island]

With regard to the matter at hand there I would simply ignore the letter from the debt collection agency in the absence of wanting to make any further representations. As previously stated Merseyrail are statute barred from pursuing this matter further by virtue of the fats and appeal was submitted.

This is not quite correct.

Merseyrail may not bring criminal proceedings against the passenger if, as seems to be the case, an appeal has been properly submitted in-time and determined.

Merseyrail remains free to sue him in the civil courts for the amount of the Penalty Fare, and some of the costs of recovering same. Although if the passenger is a minor, which we do not know, this may be less straightforward for Merseyrail.

 

[D821]

I would also suggest a formal complaint to the appeal body for their staff members failure to apply the penalty fare regulations correctly when dealing with the first appeal.

They can submit a Freedom of Information request for the body cam footage. A friend of mine did just that after having a run in with a particularly unpleasant enforcement officer.

 

[John Palmer]

It would indeed be helpful if the OP provided the details of his son's case that other posters have requested.

That said, the implication of the account given is that the penalty fare charged was the statutorily prescribed sum of £20.00. In turn this would mean that the debt collectors are demanding payment of recovery expenses amounting to £64.78 which they have no right in law to recover from the putative debtor. If Merseyrail were to bring a civil claim against the OP's son it would seem that the maximum sum for which judgment could properly be given is £20.00, in which case the £25.00 threshold for an award of fixed costs is not reached. Judgment for Merseyrail in the sum of £20.00 would be likely to be accompanied by an award of the £35.00 issue fee it had already incurred but nothing more. Not an attractive proposition for a prospective claimant.

Even if the 14 day primary deadline for lodging a second stage appeal has been missed, it may be appropriate to lodge such an appeal and ask the appeal panel to accept it as a late appeal. If the second appeal panel declines to do so it remains open to the OP's son to submit a further appeal to the Final Appeal Panel. Provision is made by Regulations 17(1)(b) and 18(1)(b) of the Penalty Fares Regulations for such late appeals to be entertained. The reported failure of the first appeal panel properly to apply the requirements of those Regulations as regards the burden of proof might be advanced as a reason for acceptance of a late appeal – until attention was drawn to this shortcoming in this thread a layman would have been justified in assuming that the appeal panel had correctly observed those requirements when coming to its decision.