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Hello today I was caught at Marylebone for travelling under a child ticket as opposed to a Adult ticket. I didn't understand the severity of my actions until now but I am worried about being prosecuted for this. The officer took down my details and attempted to bully me into signing something. The officer was very difficult to talk to and I wanted to read what I was signing first. I attempted to record the situation to protect me as I am not too aware of my rights and the law. The officer proceeded to tell me that I was not allowed to record the document that he wanted me to sign as it was a 'legal document'. I wanted to check this with my parents who are more equipped to deal with situations like this. I ended up signing in the Signature box 'Refuse to sign due to incorrect information'. It is important to note that the officer had written down my DOB incorrect and I had tried to clearly tell him this and was not prepared to sign this until it was changed. I am stressed that I will get prosecuted and I am currently a postgraduate student studying so I really do not want this to affect future prospects within Finance.
Any advice is greatly appreciated.
We have seen a number of these sort of issues recently and Marylebone station appears to be a particular hotspot. I do understand that being caught by an inspector can be a stressful situation but they are not required to delay their questioning for you to phone your parents and seek their advise. The incorrect DOB is not a 'show stopper' from a legal point of view, did it get corrected in the end?
What I expect will happen next is that you will receive a letter from the train company or an investigation company acting on their behalf. The letter will typically take a couple of months to arrive and can be sooner but shouldn't take longer than six months. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:
- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter
Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.
If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be around £100 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.
Also be aware that the train company will be able to research your ticket purchasing history so if you have bought child tickets before they will be able to discover this. If you have done this before then it will make a out of court settlement harder, and probably more expensive.
Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread I'm sure forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.
We have seen a number of these sort of issues recently and Marylebone station appears to be a particular hotspot. I do understand that being caught by an inspector can be a stressful situation but they are not required to delay their questioning for you to phone your parents and seek their advise. The incorrect DOB is not a 'show stopper' from a legal point of view, did it get corrected in the end?
What I expect will happen next is that you will receive a letter from the train company or an investigation company acting on their behalf. The letter will typically take a couple of months to arrive and can be sooner but shouldn't take longer than six months. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:
- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter
Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.
If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be around £100 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.
Also be aware that the train company will be able to research your ticket purchasing history so if you have bought child tickets before they will be able to discover this. If you have done this before then it will make a out of court settlement harder, and probably more expensive.
Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread I'm sure forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.
I understand and did not expect that they are not required to delay their questioning/process but I was wondering from a legal perspective if I had any leg to stand on by not allowing me to record the document. I do have him stating that on film too. Thank you for your response! (Edit: The DOB was not corrected as he tried to claim that I lied about it...)
I understand and did not expect that they are not required to delay their questioning/process but I was wondering from a legal perspective if I had any leg to stand on by not allowing me to record the document. I do have him stating that on film too. Thank you for your response! (Edit: The DOB was not corrected as he tried to claim that I lied about it...)
How were you trying to record the document? I am not a lawyer so will leave it to others to comment but you need to focus on the fact that you broke the law by travelling using a child ticket which you weren't entitled to use, and how you intend to reply to their letter.
Hello today I was caught at Marylebone for travelling under a child ticket as opposed to a Adult ticket. I didn't understand the severity of my actions until now but I am worried about being prosecuted for this.
Yes, as you will have noted from your encounter, this is a criminal offence, both under the Railway Bylaws and under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. The officer will have placed you under caution which makes anything you said more easily admissible as evidence in court.
The officer took down my details and attempted to bully me into signing something. The officer was very difficult to talk to and I wanted to read what I was signing first. I attempted to record the situation to protect me as I am not too aware of my rights and the law. The officer proceeded to tell me that I was not allowed to record the document that he wanted me to sign as it was a 'legal document'. I wanted to check this with my parents who are more equipped to deal with situations like this.
There is no legal reason you wouldn't be able to film the encounter or the document, but it is important to note that none of that changes the reality facing you. You were caught with a child ticket when you are a postgraduate student and very clearly over the age of 16.
I ended up signing in the Signature box 'Refuse to sign due to incorrect information'. It is important to note that the officer had written down my DOB incorrect and I had tried to clearly tell him this and was not prepared to sign this until it was changed.
In the event, it matters little if you signed or not, although it was fine for you to tell him your date of birth was wrong, if that was indeed the truth.
I am stressed that I will get prosecuted and I am currently a postgraduate student studying so I really do not want this to affect future prospects within Finance.
Any advice is greatly appreciated.
Chiltern are aggressive with prosecuting people who fiddle them out of fares in this way and have, since the pandemic, operated strict revenue controls to catch short-farers, the ticketless, and those travelling on child tickets.
You have posted elsewhere about travelling to London 4-5 days a week. Did you buy your tickets online? How often have you purchased child tickets? This could quickly turn very expensive for you. It's important you tell us the full picture so we can give proper advice about what will happen next.
Yes, as you will have noted from your encounter, this is a criminal offence, both under the Railway Bylaws and under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. The officer will have placed you under caution which makes anything you said more easily admissible as evidence in court.
There is no legal reason you wouldn't be able to film the encounter or the document, but it is important to note that none of that changes the reality facing you. You were caught with a child ticket when you are a postgraduate student and very clearly over the age of 16.
In the event, it matters little if you signed or not, although it was fine for you to tell him your date of birth was wrong, if that was indeed the truth.
Chiltern are aggressive with prosecuting people who fiddle them out of fares in this way and have, since the pandemic, operated strict revenue controls to catch short-farers, the ticketless, and those travelling on child tickets.
You have posted elsewhere about travelling to London 4-5 days a week. Did you buy your tickets online? How often have you purchased child tickets? This could quickly turn very expensive for you. It's important you tell us the full picture so we can give proper advice about what will happen next.
Yes I do now understand the severity of it, I was always under the false impression that it would just be a slap on the wrist. I have only done this since the beginning of the month/late September. I'm not sure how much it would change the situation but today I happened to purchase the ticket via Trainline but on my fathers card as opposed to my personal debit card via Trainline. I accept fault and am keen to sort this out via a fine.
I get that it will not change the outcome but I just wanted to know my rights in terms of recording and if any complaint regarding this would hold.
Edit: How long approximately does it take to receive the first letter?
It can take potentially just over 6 months before you hear anything though usually a but quicker
They may investigate your trainline account to find out any other child tickets purchased
A fine is issued by the court after it goes to court, you don't want that, you want an out of court settlement, which usually is all the fares evaded plus a 3 figure charge towards the investigation costs
What sort of out come would you hope that a complaint about being told you couldn't record the document?
It can take potentially just over 6 months before you hear anything though usually a but quicker
They may investigate your trainline account to find out any other child tickets purchased
A fine is issued by the court after it goes to court, you don't want that, you want an out of court settlement, which usually is all the fares evaded plus a 3 figure charge towards the investigation costs
What sort of out come would you hope that a complaint about being told you couldn't record the document?
Yes I am aware of that now. It’s quite noticeable the amount of fare dodgers (jumpers etc) so I was foolish enough to believe I’d get away it. Hard lesson learned I guess.
I am just trying to avoid at all costs of being prosecuted as I am trying to start a career in the corporate world.
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It can take potentially just over 6 months before you hear anything though usually a but quicker
They may investigate your trainline account to find out any other child tickets purchased
A fine is issued by the court after it goes to court, you don't want that, you want an out of court settlement, which usually is all the fares evaded plus a 3 figure charge towards the investigation costs
What sort of out come would you hope that a complaint about being told you couldn't record the document?
I understand that I am definitely in the wrong in this situation and not trying to excuse myself.
However the behaviour/attitude of the inspector was very intimidating to someone who perhaps are not as good in these situations. I also believe that the inspector should not spread false information regarding recording as it often protects people. I would hate for this behaviour to happen to another person.
How likely am I to receive an out of court settlement?
Edit: I was also under the impression that the penalty would be £20 or double the correct fare, whichever is highest. How come this does not apply here?
Edit: I was also under the impression that the penalty would be £20 or double the correct fare, whichever is highest. How come this does not apply here?
Penalty fares are for "honest mistakes". What you did, which was to fraudulently claim child discount(s) to which you weren't entitled, isn't an honest mistake, particularly if repeated again and again over period of time.
Apologies for being so blunt on this particular point.
It's not guaranteed. You may well still be prosecuted and taken to court.
Penalty fares are for "honest mistakes". What you did, which was to fraudulently claim child discount(s) to which you weren't entitled, isn't an honest mistake, particularly if repeated again and again over period of time.
Apologies for being so blunt on this particular point.
Thanks for your answer. Lesson learnt. Was more curious to the percentage of people that receive these out of court settlements compared to being taken to court. Thanks for your answers regardless.
How likely am I to receive an out of court settlement?
Edit: I was also under the impression that the penalty would be £20 or double the correct fare, whichever is highest. How come this does not apply here?
A Penalty Fare is for people who make a genuine mistake, not for flagrant fare evasion.
You have a low to moderate chance of a settlement. Chiltern very often prosecute but there have been a few cases where people have settled. Bear in mind any settlement will be for every detected instance of an avoided fare (so, if you have got a child ticket every other day since the start of September, it will be costly at £20.90 each instance), plus an administration fee of something like £100. It will also need to be paid very quickly.
The best way to obtain an out of court settlement is to follow the advice I gave upthread.
A few other points:
Chiltern often use an investigation company called Transport Investigations Limited to deal with some of their cases. TIL tend to take quite a hard line, and you often need to write to them more than once to obtain an out of court settlement
If you have done this repeatedly it will not go in your favour. Chiltern (or TIL) will be able to search your online accounts and discover the extend of this. Using someone elses payment card to purchase a ticket today won't change anything
If you're a postgraduate student then you're probably at least 21 years old - you should've been paying adult fares for at least the last five years. Rail fares can be expensive but there are railcards (e.g. 16-25) that can help to reduce these. I find it astonishing if you don't know this.
Penalty Fares are for an honest mistake. I could understand a 17 year old thinking that adult fares were not charged until the age of 18 but someone aged 21 should know that you need to pay an adult fare
If the penalty for travelling on a child ticket was only ever £20 or double the correct fare then no-one would ever buy an adult ticket. Everyone would just risk it and pay when challenged
It is not a good idea to complain about the attitute of the member of staff at this stage, if you do so then Chiltern will probably be lessinclined to consider an out of court settlement. If you really doi want to prusue a complaint then I would write to customer services after the casde against you has been concluded
I understand why you want to avoid a court appearance, and despite the seriousness of the situation I do think you have a reasonable chance of an out of court settlement if you follow my advice above, but I do wonder how serious you think the level of offending ought to be to avoid a court appearance?
As others have said, forget about the alleged “intimidating behaviour” of the inspector. That’s something we hear a lot in here, and it’s not going to get you out of this or even provide mitigation. Dispense with any notion that you are the victim and not the perpetrator. They hold all the cards.
I hope you have indeed learnt from this: people “on the fiddle” have a habit of getting caught, the consequences can be significantly worse than you thought, and it matters not whether “everyone else” also does it. If you’re still able to go into finance then that will apply on steroids, given the potential for such actions to ruin many lives. I hope you can see why many would consider it appropriate that a conviction for something like this would bar you from such an occupation, given the opportunities for further mischief that you would inevitably be presented with.
Hello today I was caught at Marylebone for travelling under a child ticket as opposed to a Adult ticket. I didn't understand the severity of my actions until now but I am worried about being prosecuted for this. The officer took down my details and attempted to bully me into signing something. The officer was very difficult to talk to and I wanted to read what I was signing first. I attempted to record the situation to protect me as I am not too aware of my rights and the law. The officer proceeded to tell me that I was not allowed to record the document that he wanted me to sign as it was a 'legal document'. I wanted to check this with my parents who are more equipped to deal with situations like this. I ended up signing in the Signature box 'Refuse to sign due to incorrect information'. It is important to note that the officer had written down my DOB incorrect and I had tried to clearly tell him this and was not prepared to sign this until it was changed. I am stressed that I will get prosecuted and I am currently a postgraduate student studying so I really do not want this to affect future prospects within Finance.
Any advice is greatly appreciated.
Yep - basically you need to engage with them now in a remorseful and non conflictual fashion - plenty of advice on here to help you do that as things progress - eg when you get their letter you can reply and post your draft reply for comment etc.
You also need to show you have learned from this and taken steps to avoid it again eg
Buy a Railcard to which you will be entitled as a student (whatever age) or a Network Card ASAP - even if you do not intend to travel by train very much or not at all - this will allow you to make the point that you have taken steps to reduce your fares legally and say thin in your reply (ie you have learned yoy lesson) - might help make them more predisposed to allowing you to settle out of court. This is pretty much the only mitigation you can do at thsi stage that I can think of - other than that is it just the grovelling I'm afraid.
I personally think it is v poor for the staff member to not correct the DoB / not permit you to film or record them / not give you time to read a document you are being asked to sign, but we don't have their side of the story - were you failing the 'attitude test' / arguing back etc perhaps? Or did you politely say 'yes, sorry about this, but I always record any conversation with officials of organisations when they question me, just as you are making a record what I am saying, so I'm sure you won't mind if I do that now before answering any of your questions which I will then be happy to discuss'? I'm guessing things probably did not go quite like that....
However, they will have to have been seriously out of order before your recording saves the day, and you would probably have to allow the matter to go to court to have any chance of presenting this recording as mitigating evidence, and probably employ a (quite expensive) solicitor to use it in mitigation, and even then you would still clearly be guilty of the offence that will be charged (ie travelling on a train without a valid ticket) - made even worse by the fact that the railway company will know - or soon find out - that you have done this repeatedly - so my advice on that one is however frustrating that experience was, it's not going to make a big difference to the outcome unless you are prepared to pay for some seriously good legal help. And that will cost far more than the costs of trying to settle or admitting guilt in court (tho maybe if the fare evasion guilty charge prevents you from becoming Senior Finance Officer of wadsofcashbank PLC at some future date in your career it may be money well spent.
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A good chance, tho Chiltern is one of the operators seemingly least open to it from posts on this forum.
It's hard to get any true stats on it as many who come here do not update their thread when matters concluded.
Obv the railway does take 100s / probably even thousands of people to court and mostly wins - but a lot of them will be people who habitually dodge fares and also do not engage with the railway after being caught and are thus taken to court and fund guilty in their absence (and probably then do everything possible to avoid paying their fines and of have a string of convictions for all sorts of other things too) - eg people who are "well known to the court and criminal justice system".
But IMHO you have a reasonable chance of settling if you engage as per advice on here.
Unless of course the OP initially gave a false DOB to try and convince the RPI they were a child, then corrected only after being further questioned by the RPI.
Yep - basically you need to engage with them now in a remorseful and non conflictual fashion - plenty of advice on here to help you do that as things progress - eg when you get their letter you can reply and post your draft reply for comment etc.
You also need to show you have learned from this and taken steps to avoid it again eg
Buy a Railcard to which you will be entitled as a student (whatever age) or a Network Card ASAP - even if you do not intend to travel by train very much or not at all - this will allow you to make the point that you have taken steps to reduce your fares legally and say thin in your reply (ie you have learned yoy lesson) - might help make them more predisposed to allowing you to settle out of court. This is pretty much the only mitigation you can do at thsi stage that I can think of - other than that is it just the grovelling I'm afraid.
I personally think it is v poor for the staff member to not correct the DoB / not permit you to film or record them / not give you time to read a document you are being asked to sign, but we don't have their side of the story - were you failing the 'attitude test' / arguing back etc perhaps? Or did you politely say 'yes, sorry about this, but I always record any conversation with officials of organisations when they question me, just as you are making a record what I am saying, so I'm sure you won't mind if I do that now before answering any of your questions which I will then be happy to discuss'? I'm guessing things probably did not go quite like that....
However, they will have to have been seriously out of order before your recording saves the day, and you would probably have to allow the matter to go to court to have any chance of presenting this recording as mitigating evidence, and probably employ a (quite expensive) solicitor to use it in mitigation, and even then you would still clearly be guilty of the offence that will be charged (ie travelling on a train without a valid ticket) - made even worse by the fact that the railway company will know - or soon find out - that you have done this repeatedly - so my advice on that one is however frustrating that experience was, it's not going to make a big difference to the outcome unless you are prepared to pay for some seriously good legal help. And that will cost far more than the costs of trying to settle or admitting guilt in court (tho maybe if the fare evasion guilty charge prevents you from becoming Senior Finance Officer of wadsofcashbank PLC at some future date in your career it may be money well spent.
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A good chance, tho Chiltern is one of the operators seemingly least open to it from posts on this forum.
It's hard to get any true stats on it as many who come here do not update their thread when matters concluded.
Obv the railway does take 100s / probably even thousands of people to court and mostly wins - but a lot of them will be people who habitually dodge fares and also do not engage with the railway after being caught and are thus taken to court and fund guilty in their absence (and probably then do everything possible to avoid paying their fines and of have a string of convictions for all sorts of other things too) - eg people who are "well known to the court and criminal justice system".
But IMHO you have a reasonable chance of settling if you engage as per advice on here.
Tho the 'professional scammers' know they don't have to present ID as there is no such obligation in the UK - nor any obligation to carry any ID - or AFAIK to even have any form of ID in the UK. Ultimately they just have it accept what you tell them...
Which is why from time to time we get threads from people who have been impersonated by a fare dodger and the 1st they hear about it is when a letter threatening court action lands on the doorstep of someone who has never even been on a train.
Thanks for your answer. Lesson learnt. Was more curious to the percentage of people that receive these out of court settlements compared to being taken to court. Thanks for your answers regardless.
Tho the 'professional scammers' know they don't have to present ID as there is no such obligation in the UK - nor any obligation to carry any ID - or AFAIK to even have any form of ID in the UK. Ultimately they just have it accept what you tell them...
Which is why from time to time we get threads from people who have been impersonated by a fare dodger and the 1st they hear about it is when a letter threatening court action lands on the doorstep of someone who has never even been on a train.
Oh very interesting. Luckily I had my university ID on me as I had forgotten my wallet that day. The inspector threatened to call the Transport Police if I did not provide a form of ID, how does this work for these ‘scammers’.
Oh very interesting. Luckily I had my university ID on me as I had forgotten my wallet that day. The inspector threatened to call the Transport Police if I did not provide a form of ID, how does this work for these ‘scammers’.
There is no legal requirement to carry or produce ID. There is a legal requirement to give your name and address when asked to do so by an authorised officer of the railway. Threatening to call the police was probably just that, a threat. The police don't normally want to get involved in ticketing matters, although there is nothing to stop them doing so.
Hello guys,
An update for this thread. I received a first letter from TIL regarding the incident and sent the following email back to them:
Dear Sir/Madam,
Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to respond back to your letter dated 14th February 2023.
On the 23rd October 2022, I was spoken to by Railway staff in connection to a journey between Gerrards Cross and London Marylebone. I would just like to start off by apologising for what has occurred and I have learnt the severity of my act. I was travelling under the wrong ticket and since the incident date, I have learnt from my mistake, and the correct railcard (16-25) and correct ticket have been purchased for each and every single day of my commute since then.
Within the letter, I have been notified that the offence may have occurred in the past previously, upon checking my trainline account. I only started regularly taking the train into London from Gerrards Cross dating 26th September and so I can confirm and deeply regret travelling under the incorrect fare between then and the 23rd October. My bookings under trainline only date back to 2021 so I am unable to provide further details on the days that I may have travelled under an incorrect fare. I did not take the train much pre September 2022 so can not remember the time frames of this. I am just conscious that this may come across as dishonesty.
As mentioned above, I am deeply sorry for this and have learnt from my mistake by purchasing and applying the correct fare since. I am very keen to settle this without further court action and I am happy to cover any outstanding fares plus administrative fees in dealing with this matter.
I look forward to hearing your response.
Thank you,
Now, I have received another letter dating 27th February, please see attached:
Your reply gave them every chance to ask for quite a lot of money, but they appear not to have taken that opportunity. Your reply now needs to concentrate on the content of the latest letter and follow the format suggested by @Hadders in the second post of this thread. With a bit of luck that will lead TIL to offer a settlement.
The new letter is from TIL, after your remorse and apology letter, and it appears they intend to proceed to summons, but only after waiting another 14 days giving you further chance to respond.
So don't give up hope yet, clearly needs to be a reply if not automatically moving to a summons. Others will be along to advise, but I suspect you need to offer all the missing fares and offer to pay an admin fee and confirm you have since bought a railcard. But might not be a settlement offer. @Hadders advice should be followed.
You should respond again, but wait about 12 days before sending the letter recorded delivery.
TIL have been known to go "out of time". They've been extremely lazy with this one, taking over four months to get to this stage. There is a six month limit for bringing a summary only case to the magistrates and there is an outside chance they'll foul it. 23rd April is the six month point. They are very inefficient and lazy at times.
This is a standard reply from TIL following a response to their first letter. Reply to them mentioning the points I mentioned upthread will gibe you a best chance of obtaining an out of court settlement.
We are aware of an issue with emails from the Forum to Microsoft-based email accounts (hotmail/outlook/live.com email addresses). This is being looked into currently, thanks for your patience meanwhile.
