Oxford to Banbury

[JonathanH]

I’m unsure how my proposal of either changing the minimum fare time to 9:30, or removing the minimum fare from Off Peak and Super Off Peak tickets would make anyone’s journey more expensive?

What is complicated about a 10am threshold, that is made simpler by moving it to 9.30am?

 

[Hadders]

My point is more that someone could buy an Off Peak ticket, which is advertised as a flexible ticket, and then decide they want to get an earlier train, at say 9:45, which NRE will tell them is an Off Peak train, but their ticket is actually invalid for.

I’m unsure how my proposal of either changing the minimum fare time to 9:30, or removing the minimum fare from Off Peak and Super Off Peak tickets would make anyone’s journey more expensive?

What happens if you purchase a railcard discounted Anytime fare?

 

[paul1609]

The Veteran's Railcard. It effectively fills the gap between those who are no longer eligible for the HM Forces Railcard, and those who have yet to reach their 60th Birthday and thus aren't yet eligible for the Senior Railcard. The number of people who are eligible for neither of those but are eligible for the newer Veteran's Railcard is tiny as a proportion of the population, but it was felt important politically to permit this group access to the similar discount.

Ive changed from a Senior Railcard to a Veterans railcard this year primarily because it doesnt have the southeast off peak restriction. This used to be a major restriction as I live on Marshlink where the trains depart at xx47 from Rye meaning I had to faff around with split tickets before nearly 11 with the Senior. I rarely buy tickets for less than £12 and I can live without Grand Central so it was a bit of a no brainer. Other people will move because of the companion and kids concessions I imagine.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What happens if you purchase a railcard discounted Anytime fare?

The undiscounted Anytime Day Single fare from Oxford to Banbury is £12.90 or £14.20 for an Anytime Day Return, so presumably for a 16-25 Railcard, in both cases, they'd be discounted to £12.00, if travelling before 10 a.m. during the week.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

My point is more that someone could buy an Off Peak ticket, which is advertised as a flexible ticket, and then decide they want to get an earlier train, at say 9:45, which NRE will tell them is an Off Peak train, but their ticket is actually invalid for.

And then what, do you pay a penalty fare as a result of using an after 10am railcard discounted ticket on a 9am train?

 

[Kilopylae]

In my opinion it is still not obvious enough. We live in a world where there are literally hundreds of T&Cs you have to read to just function in society, and people just don't do that.

There is empirical and legal evidence to support this vibe, FWIW. Not only are there various studies pointing to the fact that no-one reads T&Cs (in one study, 98% of participants 'agreed' to give their first-born children to a social networking site*), but a recent study specifically found that people are more likely to blindly accept terms the more the presentation of those terms resembles website-style T&Cs.** This does lend weight to your suggestion that—if they want people to obey a rule—they shouldn't present it via T&Cs.

Indeed, the courts have found that onerous terms buried in the fine print are not enforceable, as anything particularly unfavorable or distinctive must be brought to the customer's attention in order to count as part of the contract—suggesting that the position in law is also, to a point, that no-one reads the T&Cs, and that hiding onerous rules in there is unfair. Although, I'm far from a lawyer, and there's a good chance that Railcard T&Cs aren't anywhere near the threshold!

* Jonathan Obar and Anne Oeldorf-Hirsch (2020), "The biggest lie on the Internet: ignoring the privacy policies and terms of service policies of social networking services", Information, Communication & Society, 23:1, 128-147

** Rainer Böhme and Stefan Köpsell (2010), "Trained to accept? a field experiment on consent dialogs", Proceedings of the SIGCHI Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems, 2403–2406.

 

[Watershed]

And then what, do you pay a penalty fare as a result of using an after 10am railcard discounted ticket on a 9am train?

No, you have to pay an excess fare.

 

[Haywain]

Indeed, the courts have found that onerous terms buried in the fine print

Railcard minimum fares and time restrictions are not "buried in the fine print" and surely cannot be construed as onerous.

 

[Kilopylae]

Railcard minimum fares and time restrictions are not "buried in the fine print" and surely cannot be construed as onerous.

No, as I said myself, it's quite possible that Railcard rules are nowhere near the legal threshold. I brought that up mainly to indicate that Benjwri's point about no-one reading T&Cs, and thus T&Cs being a bad way to articulate these restrictions, has shared notes with the legal line of reasoning on these matters.

 

[Feuillesmortes]

we should be simplifying things, rather than holding onto oddities which allow overzealous fare inspectors to catch people out

I don't necessarily disagree, but it already has been simplified - there were Lower Rates, Higher Rates and a 6pm limit apparently! Also the £12 minimum has been in place since 1993 so possibly we should be grateful that hasn't been increased.

This is from wikipedia:

If the date was June 1974, the journey in question was a "Higher rate" Ordinary Return and its published full fare was £1.30, the passenger would be charged the £1.00 minimum fare, because the discounted fare would be lower than this (50% discount = £1.30 ÷ 2 = £0.65). If the £1.30 fare was on a "Lower Rate" ticket, however, the full discount would be applied, as the minimum fare for lower-rate tickets (£0.50) was less than the discounted fare (£0.65).

From 15 September 1978, minimum fares no longer applied at weekends, on bank holidays or at any time during July and August; at these times, the full 50% discount was applied to all available ticket types, no matter how low the resulting discounted fare became. On 1 September 1980, minimum fares no longer applied after 6.00pm on weekdays; and in 1986, this was changed to 10.00am.

16–25 Railcard - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[JonathanH]

I don't necessarily disagree, but it already has been simplified - there were Lower Rates, Higher Rates and a 6pm limit apparently! Also the £12 minimum has been in place since 1993 so possibly we should be grateful that hasn't been increased.

Yes, the minimum fare was, IIRC, £8 for a single or off-peak return and £16 for a full price return, prior to the simplification in 2009.

 

[Haywain]

Yes, the minimum fare was, IIRC, £8 for a single or off-peak return and £16 for a full price return, prior to the simplification in 1993.

I’m pretty sure that the single/return minimum fare variation existed a lot later than 1993.

 

[JonathanH]

I’m pretty sure that the single/return minimum fare variation existed a lot later than 1993.

Sorry, yes, Wikipedia suggests 2009. I just copied what the preceding poster had put. From 1993, the restrictions were £12 / £6, which may have been the confusion.

 

[miklcct]

You clearly don't really understand the premise of a Railcard.

If a railcard is designed to stimulate leisure travel, it should not be age restricted at all. Only a Network Railcard delivers this aim for a solo traveller, with all other railcards some kind of concessionary schemes.

 

[Haywain]

If a railcard is designed to stimulate leisure travel, it should not be age restricted at all. Only a Network Railcard delivers this aim for a solo traveller, with all other railcards some kind of concessionary schemes.

On the contrary, all railcards are designed to stimulate travel but amongst specific target groups and, in some cases, at certain times. And there are railcards for all age groups - just not solo travellers in the 30 to 60 age group who are presumably seen as not needing further encouragement.

 

[Kilopylae]

If a railcard is designed to stimulate leisure travel, it should not be age restricted at all. Only a Network Railcard delivers this aim for a solo traveller, with all other railcards some kind of concessionary schemes.

On the contrary, Railcards are supposed to stimulate leisure travel among groups which are commercially seen as worth encouraging to use the train — e.g. young people or couples. Targeted discounts are not exactly unusual.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Another question.

Am I allowed to travel between the two stations in this thread with Chiltern Railways, changing at Bicester North with a walk to Bicester Village?

Or would I need to buy a Banbury-Bicester then Bicester-Oxford ticket?

 

[JonathanH]

Am I allowed to travel between the two stations in this thread with Chiltern Railways, changing at Bicester North with a walk to Bicester Village?

No

Or would I need to buy a Banbury-Bicester then Bicester-Oxford ticket?

Yes

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Thanks Jonathan

 

[Paul Kelly]

Or would I need to buy a Banbury-Bicester then Bicester-Oxford ticket?

I don't think that's the cheapest option - Banbury to Islip is valid that way, so if it's only a single journey you're making, you could buy a return, end your outward journey at Islip and immediately start your return journey (theoretically via Oxford), then stop short at Oxford. Obviously you would need a train that stopped at Islip, limiting the usefulness of this option.