Is there room for more paths between Anglesey and the North Wales coast?

[Andrew*Debbie]

The Menai Bridge is close to all traffic until at least January 2023. I wouldn't be surprised if it is closed for a year or more.

In the meantime it is a nighmare getting between Anglesey and the mainland.

I'm going to attempt commuting by train. However the stopping service isn't very good. To make a real difference for island residents there needs to be more trains.

Before we start discussing rolling stock, short platforms and crew is there room for more trains on the line? I know Anglesey uses mechanical signaling and the Britania Bridge is single track, both of which are going to put hard limits on how many trains can run.

 

[Starmill]

The stopping service is terrible because other than Holyhead itself there's only really Llanfairpwll which it serves. Bodorgan and Ty Croes are tiny villages. Valley is very close to Holyhead and Rhosneigr station is uphill out of the village. Nobody is going to catch the train to Bangor from Llangefni, Amlwch, Moelfre or Benllech.

I would support more trains to stop at Llanfairpwll. However even an extra handful per day we need to be realistic, is not going to generate much demand. I would also support the platforms being extended but again for a station which is going to have very slow growth this is a stretch.

Llandudno Junction - Holyhead (inclusive) resignalling was cancelled so it's unlikely to be possible to run any more services other than late at night.

 

[The Planner]

Gaerwen to Valley is your problem, absolute block on a long old section.

 

[30907]

Gaerwen to Valley is your problem, absolute block on a long old section.

But there is a crossover at Gaerwen,vso in theory the option for short workings.

Question: What are the commuter patterns from Anglesey to mainland, is it just Bangor? If so, would a P-+R bus over the Britannia Bridge work (assuming it was pushed hard/incentives enough to get cars off it)?

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

But there is a crossover at Gaerwen,vso in theory the option for short workings.

Question: What are the commuter patterns from Anglesey to mainland, is it just Bangor? If so, would a P-+R bus over the Britannia Bridge work (assuming it was pushed hard/incentives enough to get cars off it)?

I normally commute by bus or bicycle. With the Menai Bridge out, the 4 mile journey by bus can take over an hour. The train is under 10 minutes.

There is a ride share lot in Llanfairpwll. It is presently underserved with only an occasional 42 bus stopping. I'm not even sure if the 42 serves both directions.

A few people are regular commuters to Bangor but many passengers from LPG go much further. I haven't used the train for the short hop in several years.

 

[RobShipway]

It would mean longer journeys for Cross Country passengers, but what you could do with is the XC trains possibly stopping at the intermediate stations between the stops that they normally make enroute to Crewe,

The Euston services though, should continue as they are currently.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

But there is a crossover at Gaerwen,vso in theory the option for short workings.

Question: What are the commuter patterns from Anglesey to mainland, is it just Bangor?

There are studies. I don't have one handy.


There were about 25 people on the platform at LPG this morning waiting for the 08:34. The 3-car 175 was busy with most of the seats taken.

At least 100 passengers got off at Bangor. There were too many to count.


I'd forgotten about the crossover.


I wonder if it would be possbile to build a temporary station and carpark at Gaerwen. Chapel Street is far from ideal, but it does connect to the A55. That is where the crossover and signal box are. I don't know the history, but that must be where the station was.


That could open up the possibility of a Gaerwen - Bangor or even Gaerwen - Llandudno Junction shuttle. If there are paths it could fill in the gaps in the existing service maybe getting an overall 2tph during the morning and evening rush.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2022 ==

It would mean longer journeys for Cross Country passengers, but what you could do with is the XC trains possibly stopping at the intermediate stations between the stops that they normally make enroute to Crewe,

The Euston services though, should continue as they are currently.

XC? Do you mean Avanti West Coast?

I'm not suggesting the Voyagers stop at all the request stops on Anglsey. They are short platforms and require manual door operation. AWC are short staffed and having trouble running even the reduced service. Having some Holyhead <-> Chester trains stop at Llanfairpwll would be helpful to us, but just isn't right.




The North Wales coast presently has 1 direct train departing Euston per week. It runs on Saturdays. There is one direct train to Euston in the timetable. It departs Holyhead at 0551. Did not run today and started from Crewe.

05:51 Holyhead to London Euston due 10:16 was started from Crewe.
It will no longer call at Holyhead, Bangor Gwynedd, Llandudno Junction, Colwyn Bay, Rhyl, Prestatyn, Flint and Chester.
This is due to a shortage of train crew.
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 10 from Crewe. There are no reservations on this service throughout.

Train Timetables | Train Schedule | Avanti West Coast

Plan your journey with our train timetables for services in the UK. Download train schedules at Avanti West Coast to check times & special services.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

 

[Llanigraham]

Re the shuttle:
Where are you going to get the stock from?
Where are you going to get the drivers and guards from?

 

[RobShipway]

There are studies. I don't have one handy.


There were about 25 people on the platform at LPG this morning waiting for the 08:34. The 3-car 175 was busy with most of the seats taken.

At least 100 passengers got off at Bangor. There were too many to count.


I'd forgotten about the crossover.


I wonder if it would be possbile to build a temporary station and carpark at Gaerwen. Chapel Street is far from ideal, but it does connect to the A55. That is where the crossover and signal box are. I don't know the history, but that must be where the station was.


That could open up the possibility of a Gaerwen - Bangor or even Gaerwen - Llandudno Junction shuttle. If there are paths it could fill in the gaps in the existing service maybe getting an overall 2tph during the morning and evening rush.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2022 ==




XC? Do you mean Avanti West Coast?

I'm not suggesting the Voyagers stop at all the request stops on Anglsey. They are short platforms and require manual door operation. AWC are short staffed and having trouble running even the reduced service. Having some Holyhead <-> Chester trains stop at Llanfairpwll would be helpful to us, but just isn't right.




The North Wales coast presently has 1 direct train departing Euston per week. It runs on Saturdays. There is one direct train to Euston in the timetable. It departs Holyhead at 0551. Did not run today and started from Crewe.

Train Timetables | Train Schedule | Avanti West Coast

Plan your journey with our train timetables for services in the UK. Download train schedules at Avanti West Coast to check times & special services.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

Re the shuttle:
Where are you going to get the stock from?
Where are you going to get the drivers and guards from?

So as Llanigraham asks where are you going to get the stock from plus the staff to man the trains, if you are not amending any existing services?

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

Do the paths exist for a shuttle? I have no idea. No one has given a firm answer.


The Menai Bridge will be closed until at least January 2023. Given the scope of the work and the serious condition of the bridge, I expect it will be closed much longer, even if temporary repairs allow it to reopen for a few months.

Road traffic was horrific again today. Bangor station was very busy this morning. BTP met the train I was on, something I rarely (never) see.



Rolling stock and staff are not needed in a large numbers since there would only need to be one or two trains. One train could easily shuttle between Gaerwen and Bangor in between the the existing services and still get ~2tph. To make room for existing services, It could park on the through track or maybe on the short siding next to platform 2. A Gaerwen to Llandudno Junction shuttle would need two or three trains, but I'm not sure if there is real demand for that.



The incoming 769s should free up some 153s and 150s. Yes they are old and tired but we don't need them forever. Just a year or two.

The 197s are supposed to begin service "soon" altough that keeps getting pushed back a few weeks.

This thread says 3 175s should be freed up --> https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...s-on-introduction.182501/page-84#post-5897942. That cascades down to freeing up 158s, which could be used on the shuttle.


The 231s are supposed to be in service by December, but I'm not going to count them.



A small number of drivers and guards would have to be hired and trained. These are routes and stock TfW have operated for years, so it may not be that hard to find staff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will the bridge definitely be fully repaired, or might they consider making it cycle and pedestrian only, which would be a much lower cost, I wonder?

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

A good question.


The suspension hangers have stretched and need to be replaced. This was discovered in early 2022 and work has been underway towards a repair. Since then things must have gotten much worse.

A few weeks ago workers installed straps between the tops of the rods and the chain. THere is a close up about 1/2 though this video --> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-wales-63380699

My guess is they are concerned a rod would fail at the top and fall into the roadway. Then the bridge was closed with no advance notice. Not all of the rods have straps. I don't know if that was planned or if they stopped work because of the condition of the bridge.

Initially the bridge was closed to all traffic. Now it is open to pedistrians, but only in limited numbers. Cyclists must dismount and walk accross on the pedestrian footpath. That a mere bicycle is banned from the road deck is very concerning.


I cycled to work 2 or 3 days a week. The bridge deck had started buckling. Nothing huge, I notice every little bump on the bike.

I'm not comfortable walking across.

--------

The Welsh Goverment have a contract in place with UK Highways A55. They sub-contracted to a bridge specialist who've been working maintainance and repair for at least a year. Replacing the rods is a big task. You can't pop down to ScrewFix and pick up hanger rods for a '35 Telford.

I don't know the details of the contracts. I doubt the Welsh Goverment will keep the bridge shut unless a safe repair is not possible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My guess is they were concerned a rod would fail at the top and fall into the roadway. Then the bridge was closed with no advance notice. Not all of the rods have straps. I don't know if that was planned or if they stopped all work because of the condition of the bridge.

Initially the bridge was closed to all traffic. Now it is open to pedistrians, in limited numbers. Cyclists must dismount and walk accross on the pedestrian footpath. That a mere bicycle is banned from the road deck is very concerning. I'm not comfortable walking across.

I was more concerned to read that the number of people on the bridge is limited by marshalls. That suggests it is really not safe, and that they should instead be putting on a free bus shuttle carrying pedestrians and cyclists via the Britannia Bridge. Yes, there's the railway, but the stations are a fair bit out of the way if you just want to cross from Menai Bridge to Bangor.

I wonder why they have to be on the footpath? Out of the path of any falling rod, or because it's thicker (as it's elevated from the road I guess) so stronger?

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

I don't know. I've tried to find more detailed information, but with very limited sucess.

My wild guess is Spencer Group are doing a risk assesment before proceeding with further work. Pedestrians are a trivial load, a rounding error. The wind loads have to higher.

This time of year is when we get frequent gales. I'm half expecting to be woken up in the middle of night by very loud noises in the distance.

Key Welsh bridge shut for essential maintenance – Highways News

highways-news.com

Engineers have identified serious risks and structural engineers have recommended the closure, with the bridge shut for at least two weeks while findings are reviewed.

Menai Suspension Bridge closed due to serious structural issues | New Civil Engineer

The Thomas Telford-designed bridge will be 200 years old in 2026 and has been subject to a 7.5t weight restriction since June. It was during last week’s

www.newcivilengineer.com

Last month it was announced that Spencer Group will be undertaking the £1.5M refurbishment works on the Menai Suspension Bridge on behalf of UK Highways A55 to prepare it for its bicentenary. The primary focus of Spencer Group’s work on the Menai Bridge includes repainting the entire main span underdeck of the 417m-long bridge.

The Hull-based Spencer Group has designed bespoke moving gantry platforms to enable its team to access the currently unreachable main span underdeck to shotblast, inspect and repaint the area.


In addition, Spencer Group has been appointed to strengthen the handrails of the pedestrian walkways on the approach spans to both sides of the bridge. A further project will see Spencer Group replace the majority of the vertical road deck hangers, which suspend the deck from the main chains of the bridge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Despite that last sentence it does appear it's one deck with traditional raised pavements.

 

[The Planner]

Do the paths exist for a shuttle? I have no idea. No one has given a firm answer.

Ignoring the fact that Gaerwen doesn't have a station, temporary or otherwise (not sure where you could put it either, the crossover is outside the box and the down side has a private house there). Assuming you stop at Llanfairpwll, you would need 11-12 minutes from Bangor to Gaerwen. Add on a dwell for going out of service and into an ECS, say 2 minutes. Move up to the crossover, say 2, reverse, another 4 minutes, 2 minutes back to the platform and another 1 minute dwell, finally 12 minutes back to Bangor. That is 35 minutes for a round trip so you need two units. The whole process to get it clear so another train could depart Bangor is going to be a good 24-25 minutes. It wouldn't work all day I suspect.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

not sure where you could put it either, the crossover is outside the box and the down side has a private house there)

I first saw the signal box when two nearby houses were on the market. One of them was Temperance. Perhaps it used to be a pub. I think it got renovated into a semi and no longer has the name.

If the shuttle reverses at Gaerwen, there is only need for a platform on one side.

There is a coal merchant on Chappel street just before the signal box. I suspect it is on the site of a former goods yard.

Between the coal merchant and the signal box is a strip of empty land. This might be where the line to Llangefni branched off, or there was a siding.

There is room for a platform here. The coal merchant might not like it but they have room for a car park. The 4A and 4H buses stop here too.

However, NR would need to move the crossover which might be the end of this idea.


OR

There is empty land on the other side of Chapel street that goes behind Temperance and the other two houses. It has access off the road. There is room for a platform and a car park. The crossover wouldn't need to move, but NR or the Welsh Goverment would need to buy or lease the land and build a temporary station.

My guess is it has outline planning for houses that haven't been built yet.


The biggest issue might be planning approval. Chapel Street is already surprisingly busy. Locals use it to get to Llandanial Fab as well as a short cut to the A4080.

 

[The Planner]

I first saw the signal box when two nearby houses were on the market. One of them was Temperance. Perhaps it used to be a pub. I think it got renovated into a semi and no longer has the name.

If the shuttle reverses at Gaerwen, there is only need for a platform on one side.

There is a coal merchant on Chappel street just before the signal box. I suspect it is on the site of a former goods yard.

Between the coal merchant and the signal box is a strip of empty land. This might be where the line to Llangefni branched off, or there was a siding.

There is room for a platform here. The coal merchant might not like it but they have room for a car park. The 4A and 4H buses stop here too.

However, NR would need to move the crossover which might be the end of this idea.


OR

There is empty land on the other side of Chapel street that goes behind Temperance and the other two houses. It has access off the road. There is room for a platform and a car park. The crossover wouldn't need to move, but NR or the Welsh Goverment would need to buy or lease the land and build a temporary station.

My guess is it has outline planning for houses that haven't been built yet.


The biggest issue might be planning approval. Chapel Street is already surprisingly busy. Locals use it to get to Llandanial Fab as well as a short cut to the A4080.

All of which would assume its a permanent item. None of the above could be sorted short term.

 

[30907]

Ignoring the fact that Gaerwen doesn't have a station, temporary or otherwise (not sure where you could put it either, the crossover is outside the box and the down side has a private house there). Assuming you stop at Llanfairpwll, you would need 11-12 minutes from Bangor to Gaerwen. Add on a dwell for going out of service and into an ECS, say 2 minutes. Move up to the crossover, say 2, reverse, another 4 minutes, 2 minutes back to the platform and another 1 minute dwell, finally 12 minutes back to Bangor. That is 35 minutes for a round trip so you need two units. The whole process to get it clear so another train could depart Bangor is going to be a good 24-25 minutes. It wouldn't work all day I suspect.

A half-hourly service could be maintained using the existing TfW service plus a shuttle reversing at Gaerwen box (ECS as there is little point in spending money on a station there, as Llanfair is as convenient).
You might need the odd gap for the Gerallts, but in any case I suspect the need is mainly peak hours so half-hourly all day may be overkill.
Finding crews and stock would be the challenge - unless TfW want to recruit for the Amlwch and Caernarfon services

Alternative suggestion - could there be a passenger/cycle ferry across the strait, using the existing pleasure boats eg at Beaumaris)? Bangor Pier isn't convenient, but is there a possible landing point opposite Menai Bridge harbour?

 

[Esker-pades]

Bangor is also a pretty bad place to reverse trains, especially from the Holyhead direction. The only crossover is at the Holyhead end of the station, so the train would have to reverse thrice. (Arr Bangor P1 - Reverse - cross to down line - reverse - Bangor P2 - reverse - to Menai). I reckon you'd bump into problems with up and down trains arriving within 10 minutes of each other. In which case, there'd have to be another two reversals to have a dwell in either the middle roads or the carriage sidings. You'd probably end up running services onwards to Llandudno Jn, brining its own problems with running an additional TPH through that AB section.

Your best bet (still tenuous) would be to wait until the Dec '23 TT and see if you can extend the Manchester Airport to Bangor trains over the bridge to Llanfairpwll and Gaerwen.
xx:00 from Bangor - xx:06 at Llanfairpwll - xx:10-14 at Gaerwen - xx:18 at Llanfairpwll - xx:26 from Bangor (min 2 dwell). Horrible for reliability.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

I'm going to sugguest a Menai Strait Shuttle to various politicians and management at my employer. A shuttle from Llanfairpwll is perhaps do-able with little or no infrastructure investment.

I'll leave it up to the operators and Welsh Goverment to examine the idea in detail.

=================


Lee Waters MS gave an Oral Statement yesterday. Here are a few highlights.

The latest inspection was reported to the Welsh Government last Wednesday, and it unexpectedly highlighted an immediate concern around the brittle failure mechanism of the hangers. As is standard practice, officials reviewed and challenged the findings. However, based on very clear advice from structural engineers, it was considered that there was no other option but to close the bridge while further checks on the analysis are undertaken by an independent consultant.

The risk of a catastrophic event happening to the bridge is still low, but it is too high for us to be able to risk it. And as the Member rightly pointed out, this is a very old bridge. Some 40 of the hangers were replaced in 1990s, but there are over 200 remaining that are much older, and a much older technology.

There are also contingency plans being drafted, and initial options in this plan would include the options to increase park-and-ride facilities,
to increase park-and-ride facilities, create potential stacking site options, and review the rail use to and from the island.

Plenary 25/10/2022 - Welsh Parliament

The Welsh Parliament is the democratically elected body that represents the interests of Wales and its people.

record.senedd.wales

Traffic on the A5 this morning was backed up to the station and hardly moving. Queues on the A5025 extend almost to Pentraeth.

 

[Trainbike46]

Bangor is also a pretty bad place to reverse trains, especially from the Holyhead direction. The only crossover is at the Holyhead end of the station, so the train would have to reverse thrice. (Arr Bangor P1 - Reverse - cross to down line - reverse - Bangor P2 - reverse - to Menai). I reckon you'd bump into problems with up and down trains arriving within 10 minutes of each other. In which case, there'd have to be another two reversals to have a dwell in either the middle roads or the carriage sidings. You'd probably end up running services onwards to Llandudno Jn, brining its own problems with running an additional TPH through that AB section.

Your best bet (still tenuous) would be to wait until the Dec '23 TT and see if you can extend the Manchester Airport to Bangor trains over the bridge to Llanfairpwll and Gaerwen.
xx:00 from Bangor - xx:06 at Llanfairpwll - xx:10-14 at Gaerwen - xx:18 at Llanfairpwll - xx:26 from Bangor (min 2 dwell). Horrible for reliability.

What if you extended that to Holyhead instead, and used an extra unit? That way you wouldn't have the very short turnaround probably ruining the reliability of a long-distance service

 

[zwk500]

If the shuttle reverses at Gaerwen, there is only need for a platform on one side.

This is only possible if the crossover has point locks and is signalled for passenger use. My bet is at Gaerwen it isn't. If it has point locks but just shunt signals, you might be able to get temporary permission to use the crossover with passengers onboard, but if there aren't facing point locks (and I don't think there are) it would need a member of staff to secure the points prior to every passenger move.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

I've abandoned the idea of a station at Gaerwen. It isn't workable.


An empty BNG<->LPG shuttle would use the crossover.

 

[MattRat]

Another solution to OPs problem, albeit a controversial one, would be to close the least used stations, speeding up the service, meaning more services are possible with the same amount of trains.

 

[zwk500]

Another solution to OPs problem, albeit a controversial one, would be to close the least used stations, speeding up the service, meaning more services are possible with the same amount of trains.

There aren't really any sensible stops to drop within the OP's target area. And the line is quite slow around most of the stations so you don't gain that much time back.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

Passengers walk across the line at Ty Croes. I once applied to be a level crossing operator there. (did not get an interview).

My photo of the level crossing at Star, Anglesey.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Would a better idea not be to stop every service at Bangor and Llanfair, using the 3 freed up 175s to ensure all TfW services are at least 4 cars?

 

[Dr Day]

he Menai Bridge will be closed until at least January 2023.

Rolling stock and staff are not needed in a large numbers since there would only need to be one or two trains

A small number of drivers and guards would have to be hired and trained.

Unfortunately, the timescales don't fit. As presented on many other threads, it takes a year or so to fully train drivers. I would be very surprised if TfW have sufficient 'spare' crew and rolling stock to do this within existing diagrams/establishments etc, and even if they did whether this would be a priority. Adding calls in existing through services could have major implications for performance, as well as revenue impacts of the extra journey time for those heading to/from Holyhead and beyond.

 

[Esker-pades]

What if you extended that to Holyhead instead, and used an extra unit? That way you wouldn't have the very short turnaround probably ruining the reliability of a long-distance service

Yes. It would be more reliable. My post was working within the confines of having reversals at Gaerwen.