All XC services should call at Worcestershire Parkway

[a good off]

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/additional-worcestershire-parkway-calls-on-xc-route.238483/

They should *all* stop there in my opinion.

 

[GoneSouth]

They should *all* stop there in my opinion.

Maybe not all but when XC fully reinstate the Bristol to Manchester …

 

[The Planner]

Maybe not all but when XC fully reinstate the Bristol to Manchester …

They still won't when they come back in May unless they have had a seismic change of thought.

 

[Birmingham]

They still won't when they come back in May unless they have had a seismic change of thought.

Disappointed to learn CrossCountry still won’t call more useful trains at Worcestershire Parkway but elated to learn it is reinstating Manchester-Bristol services from May 2023; is that confirmed (or as good as can be)?

 

[Dr Day]

AFAIK the issue is more that XC can't rather than won't stop at Worcestershire Parkway. Pathing constraints. Also the negative impact of stopping and slowing the core long distance SW-NE services down to cater for potentially a lower yield more regional market may not stack up either.

 

[The Planner]

AFAIK the issue is more that XC can't rather than won't stop at Worcestershire Parkway. Pathing constraints. Also the negative impact of stopping and slowing the core long distance SW-NE services down to cater for potentially a lower yield more regional market may not stack up either.

They were never interested in it because of your second statement.

 

[GoneSouth]

They still won't when they come back in May unless they have had a seismic change of thought.

Yeah sorry, my laughter there was for 2 reasons

1. XC probably won’t ever reinstate the full Bristol to Manchester service which is disappointing.
2. Even if they did, they wouldn’t even consider stopping those services at WOP, which I think is a shame. XC stop at plenty of small stations already but at least this one has potential for connecting into Cotswold services.

My intention was sarcasm, knowing that XC have no interest in running either their full pre COVID timetable or serving WOP.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2022 ==

Also the negative impact of stopping and slowing the core long distance SW-NE services down to cater for potentially a lower yield more regional market may not stack up either.

You mean like Tiverton, Tamworth, Burton, Chesterfield, Morpeth and Alnmouth

 

[tbtc]

You mean like Tiverton, Tamworth, Burton, Chesterfield, Morpeth and Alnmouth

…all of which were served by “cross country” trains in BR days, so a historic legacy (mind you BR had Cross County services stopping at places like Crossgates, anything to plug a gap!)

But any seat on a Voyager used by someone on a £10.60 Worcestershire Parkway day return to Birmingham is a seat that could potentially be filled by someone paying significantly more than that to travel from Bristol (off peak return: £64:30), and XC can’t currently cope with existing passengers at existing stations, so why would they be keen to embrace a station where most of the passengers are going to be paying little for their journey into the nearest big city?

Worcestershire is like East Midlands Parkway; is a nice idea but was built at a time when the majority of trains passing through don’t have capacity to stop there - maybe if and when XC eventually get Voyager replacements they’ll look at adding additional stops like this one but right now the long distance passengers don’t have enough seats so it’d be Perverse to squeeze lots of short distance passengers on board

 

[The Planner]

And one of the main reasons they binned off Solihull.

 

[lammergeier]

They still won't when they come back in May unless they have had a seismic change of thought.

Any idea what the plan for XC after May is (so far?)

 

[geordieblue]

You mean like Tiverton, Tamworth, Burton, Chesterfield, Morpeth and Alnmouth

In fairness for a lot of these places XC provides a big chunk of the service (I think all the service at Burton for example) - Worcestershire Parkway will still be served even if XC don't stop long-distance trains there.

 

[Birmingham]

In fairness for a lot of these places XC provides a big chunk of the service (I think all the service at Burton for example) - Worcestershire Parkway will still be served even if XC don't stop long-distance trains there.

Burton-on-Trent is also served by the hourly Cardiff-Nottingham service that solely serves Worcestershire Parkway on the Cross Country route.

 

[The Planner]

Any idea what the plan for XC after May is (so far?)

There will be more Bristol Manchesters and Reading York/Newcastle also makes a return last I heard. Expect shorter Voyagers to enable it.

 

[lammergeier]

There will be more Bristol Manchesters and Reading York/Newcastle also makes a return last I heard. Expect shorter Voyagers to enable it.

Thanks, that's good to hear. Hopefully the extra HST diagram(s) should take up some of the slack as well.

 

[Starmill]

You mean like Tiverton, Tamworth, Burton, Chesterfield, Morpeth and Alnmouth

There are relatively few calls at Morpeth, and it's not far from the town centre, albeit there's a hill. Chesterfield, Burton-on-Trent and Tamworth are right in their respective town centres.

So only Alnmouth and Tiverton Parkway are comparable with Worcestershire Parkway, and there are few calls at Alnmouth. Therefore really only Tiverton Parkway is comparable with a suggested full 2tph stopping there. It's not realistic.

 

[GoneSouth]

Burton-on-Trent is also served by the hourly Cardiff-Nottingham service that solely serves Worcestershire Parkway on the Cross Country route.

Indeed, so if WOP doesn’t merit stopping the long distance trains, why should Burton? Historic reasons again I guess?

…all of which were served by “cross country” trains in BR days, so a historic legacy

So were Rotherham and New Pudsey for example but that doesn’t mean things shouldn’t change.

It’s a shame to see a great piece of investment not being used properly. Worcester, Malvern, Hereford, Evesham and Kidderminster (southbound journeys) could all have great interchange opportunities.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2022 ==

There are relatively few calls at Morpeth, and it's not far from the town centre, albeit there's a hill. Chesterfield, Burton-on-Trent and Tamworth are right in their respective town centres.

So only Alnmouth and Tiverton Parkway are comparable with Worcestershire Parkway, and there are few calls at Alnmouth. Therefore really only Tiverton Parkway is comparable with a suggested full 2tph stopping there. It's not realistic.

So Tiverton definitely has too many stops then?

 

[zwk500]

Indeed, so if WOP doesn’t merit stopping the long distance trains, why should Burton? Historic reasons again I guess?

Historic reasons, but also Burton does have quite a lot of economic activity around it, with the breweries and aggregates extraction alongside some rail freight and vehicle storage.

It’s a shame to see a great piece of investment not being used properly. Worcester, Malvern, Hereford, Evesham and Kidderminster (southbound journeys) could all have great interchange opportunities.

Is it a great piece of investment if it could never be used in this way from the start? I always thought it's main purpose was as a Park & Ride from the M5 into Worcester, rather than a Tamworth-style interchange between lines.

 

[Starmill]

So Tiverton definitely has too many stops then?

Arguably even one per week would be one too many at Tiverton Parkway, while there's still no rail service at all to the other towns between Exeter St Davids and Taunton. BR had the opportunity to build a station at Cullompton or Wellington, but chose M5 J27 instead. A Cullompton station could have served M5 J28 just as well as the actual Tiverton Parkway does, but the A361 trumped this. The damage to the market of the Tarka line which the station at J27 and the upgrades to the A361 did are still with us today. The industry and country is worse off as a result.

Wellington may now be rectified, but at vast cost and with difficulty due to the need to serve Tiverton Parkway, having built it.

It will not come as a surprise that I am strongly critical of any public money being used to build stations, or other passengers being slowed down to allow stops at them, which are located with neither any local population nor quality connections to actual settlements. At least Worcestershire Parkway permits some useful connections, unlike Tiverton Parkway.

 

[Birmingham]

Is it a great piece of investment if it could never be used in this way from the start?

Well quite, it should never have been built if there was no hope of any useful services ever calling, just a waste of everyone’s time and money.

 

[GoneSouth]

Sunny

Arguably even one per week would be one too many at Tiverton Parkway, while there's still no rail service at all to the other towns between Exeter St Davids and Taunton. BR had the opportunity to build a station at Cullompton or Wellington, but chose M5 J27 instead. A Cullompton station could have served M5 J28 just as well as the actual Tiverton Parkway does, but the A361 trumped this. The damage to the market of the Tarka line which the station at J27 and the upgrades to the A361 did are still with us today. The industry and country is worse off as a result.

Wellington may now be rectified, but at vast cost and with difficulty due to the need to serve Tiverton Parkway, having built it.

Don’t you just love it when public/mass transport infrastructure is designed to serve the car user, not to offer an alternative for those without or who would rather not use theirs. We do it so badly sometimes.

As for Tiverton, I have seen quite a lot of people board there on my trips to the south west so perhaps one train or week is a bit harsh

Is it a great piece of investment if it could never be used in this way from the start?

I meant to say infrastructures really, not investment. It’s a good piece of building work linking the 2 lines at different levels, lots of parking etc but as you say, planning and understanding of the possibilities left a lot to be desired unfortunately.

I’m sure it will be repurposed as a fast commuter line when it becomes impossible to travel long distance SW to NE as some people are sure will happen post HS2

 

[The Planner]

Thats what happens when its third party money and not looked at strategically.

 

[Starmill]

Is it a great piece of investment if it could never be used in this way from the start?

Argeed. Interchange opportunities aren't zero, as they are at Reston and Tiverton Parkway, but realistically they were never going to be any better than they currently are, and they made up just a small part of the business case.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2022 ==

Thats what happens when its third party money and not looked at strategically.

It's particularly galling in light of other enhancements at similar costs to projects like Reston, Worcestershire Parkway and East Midlands Parkway which are overlooked despite offering far better value for money.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

There will be more Bristol Manchesters and Reading York/Newcastle also makes a return last I heard. Expect shorter Voyagers to enable it.

I'd rather that than the current timetable for services through Oxford!

 

[IanXC]

Interestingly Worcestershire County Council's Rail Strategy identifies the Manchester - Bristol as the service they think it would be plausible to have call at Worcestershire Parkway.

The Local Transport Plan | Worcestershire County Council

The Worcestershire Local Transport Plan focuses on attracting and supporting economic investment and growth, by delivering transport infrastructure and services to tackle congestion and improve quality of life.

www.worcestershire.gov.uk

They identify that service, presumably as the one which represents the path of least (but still significant) resistance with CrossCountry. The strategy goes on to talk about additional services between Birmingham and Bristol/Cardiff calling at WOP, which I suspect is probably the most realistic way of achieving more calls.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Interestingly Worcestershire County Council's Rail Strategy identifies the Manchester - Bristol as the service they think it would be plausible to have call at Worcestershire Parkway.

The Local Transport Plan | Worcestershire County Council

The Worcestershire Local Transport Plan focuses on attracting and supporting economic investment and growth, by delivering transport infrastructure and services to tackle congestion and improve quality of life.

www.worcestershire.gov.uk

They identify that service, presumably as the one which represents the path of least (but still significant) resistance with CrossCountry. The strategy goes on to talk about additional services between Birmingham and Bristol/Cardiff calling at WOP, which I suspect is probably the most realistic way of achieving more calls.

I believe the Bristol - Manchester services are generally less busy like the most of the Reading - Newcastle services were, hence the call at Worcestershire Parkway.

 

[Starmill]

Worcestershire is like East Midlands Parkway; is a nice idea

I would argue neither station ever had a realistic chance of taking a significant new market share away from road, and as such neither were nice ideas in specifics. They might be nice to speculate about, but in practice spending very large amounts of capital budget to build stations which realistically can only be accessed by private car or taxi is not good for the industry as a whole.

 

[The Planner]

I would argue neither station ever had a realistic chance of taking a significant new market share away from road, and as such neither were nice ideas in specifics. They might be nice to speculate about, but in practice spending very large amounts of capital budget to build stations which realistically can only be accessed by private car or taxi is not good for the industry as a whole.

There is an emerging train of thought amongst some that station car parks should be removed to encourage more walking, cycling and public transport to stations. Personally I think that would do the opposite, you would just lose the people that drive to a station entirely from the railway.

 

[zwk500]

There is an emerging train of thought amongst some that station car parks should be removed to encourage more walking, cycling and public transport to stations. Personally I think that would do the opposite, you would just lose the people that drive to a station entirely from the railway.

I can see this strategy working in urban areas, if you swapped car parking spaces for proper cycle/bus provision, but I agree with you that once you're into suburban and rural areas removing the car parks will just push people away from the railway.

 

[Starmill]

There is an emerging train of thought amongst some that station car parks should be removed to encourage more walking, cycling and public transport to stations. Personally I think that would do the opposite, you would just lose the people that drive to a station entirely from the railway.

The main reason for this is to use the land for housing, not to just abolish car parking spaces for the amusement value of it.

Given the overwhelming need for housing this isn't too surprising. And it won't affect stations like Worcestershire Parkway because the developer won't be confident of selling a small number of units in the middle of nowhere.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2022 ==

I can see this strategy working in urban areas, if you swapped car parking spaces for proper cycle/bus provision, but I agree with you that once you're into suburban and rural areas removing the car parks will just push people away from the railway.

There's a vast over-supply of car parking at places like Ebbsfleet International and East Midlands Parkway. The proposed developments on both sites would be enough to replace any lost demand from people parking several times over. They do have the advantages of scale however which Worcestershire Parkway doesn't.

 

[The Planner]

The main reason for this is to use the land for housing, not to just abolish car parking spaces for the amusement value of it.

Given the overwhelming need for housing this isn't too surprising. And it won't affect stations like Worcestershire Parkway because the developer won't be confident of selling a small number of units in the middle of nowhere.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2022 ==


There's a vast over-supply of car parking at places like Ebbsfleet International and East Midlands Parkway. The proposed developments on both sites would be enough to replace any lost demand from people parking several times over. They do have the advantages of scale however which Worcestershire Parkway doesn't.

I don't believe it is, in some cases this is talking about small car parks. You are not going to be building much on them.