CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Rhydgaled]

Making the Swanline services electric would only save two diagrams per day. The 197s will still be required to run every other Manchester service, as those are the ones which go to/from West Wales.

If the Welsh Goverment want TfW to make full use of the wires (to save fuel and make the business case for electrification stronger) they'll be wanting bi-modes on the Swansea-Manchester route. Given it is planned to be five coaches that is two units per diagram, at least 18 units (I think Swansea-Manchester would require 9 or 10 diagrams) if the additional mark 4s hadn't been brought in. Not a good look for one of TfW's flagship routes (SWA-MAN) to be burning diesel under the wires for over 40% of the journey wouldn't you think?

I know they go through to Carmarthen/Pembs at the moment, but I've always thought of it as two seperate routes joined for operational convience only (and because there isn't the money / rolling stock to properly provide an hourly through rail service between Carmarthen and Cardiff).

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the Welsh Goverment want TfW to make full use of the wires (to save fuel and make the business case for electrification stronger) they'll be wanting bi-modes on the Swansea-Manchester route. Given it is planned to be five coaches that is two units per diagram, at least 18 units (I think Swansea-Manchester would require 9 or 10 diagrams) if the additional mark 4s hadn't been brought in. Not a good look for one of TfW's flagship routes (SWA-MAN) to be burning diesel under the wires for over 40% of the journey wouldn't you think?

I would agree here. If they ordered some suitable InterCity style bi-modes (6 or 7-section FLIRTs I guess) then the Mk4s could be used on the North Wales Coast as a matter of course (hardly any wired sections) and the 197s cascaded to allow the 230s and 153s to be binned and for added capacity e.g. on the Cambrian which is a big loser on the 197 move. Sorted!

 

[anthony263]

Class 93s to replace the class 67s perhaps?

 

[craigybagel]

Class 93s to replace the class 67s perhaps?

Nowhere near powerful enough on diesel.

However, I do think the MKIVs and 67s are a pretty inspired way to test the market cheaply. In a few years time if they've been a success, and as bi-mode technology develops, and potentially if more electrification happens (not that I'm expecting any but it's a possibility) then the purchase of new locos, and potentially new stock to haul them, is much less of a risky proposition. It would also likely be a larger fleet than the existing plans, which is where it comes back to the 197s that are meant to be the topic of this thread - it could see 197s released for other duties, of which there are plenty of possibilities.

 

[Caaardiff]

In reality TfW now own the Mk4's and 153's. No doubt they had a good deal as they would have gone to scrap otherwise, but it's unlikely there will be any short term change to the use of these units. The 153's are probably a shorter term stop gap as there was nothing suitable to replace them with the 170's going and the 197 order not being big enough.

If orders for 19x start to dwindle then I can see TfW being offered a good deal from CAF on a top up of 197's but my preference would actually be a top up of 231's to work Swanline & West Wales services with those 197's being moved to HOWL and Bidston to completely replace the 153's and 230's.

 

[Esker-pades]

If the Welsh Goverment want TfW to make full use of the wires (to save fuel and make the business case for electrification stronger) they'll be wanting bi-modes on the Swansea-Manchester route. Given it is planned to be five coaches that is two units per diagram, at least 18 units (I think Swansea-Manchester would require 9 or 10 diagrams) if the additional mark 4s hadn't been brought in. Not a good look for one of TfW's flagship routes (SWA-MAN) to be burning diesel under the wires for over 40% of the journey wouldn't you think?

I know they go through to Carmarthen/Pembs at the moment, but I've always thought of it as two seperate routes joined for operational convience only (and because there isn't the money / rolling stock to properly provide an hourly through rail service between Carmarthen and Cardiff).

Medium-long term, yes there should be bi-modes.

At the moment, not every Manchester-West Wales service is being split at Cardiff, only 1tp2h are (IE: the loco-hauled ones). It would not be popular to split everything at Cardiff, and neither would it be desirable from a platforming perspective.

Say one alters the pattern to be 1tph Manchester to Swansea plus 1tph Cardiff to West Wales (Milford/Pembroke/Fishguard).....that would give three fast trains per hour between Cardiff and Swansea, plus one Swanline. That's probably overkill. Plus Grand Union plus freight......ehhhhh.

So, trying to keep the 2tph fast between London and Swansea, but keep the link from West Wales to Cardiff......1tph Manchester to Carmarthen? But then we've already got 1tp2h GWR turning around there, plus Grand Union (potentially). Adding another service turning around Carmarthen would probably mean there are no platforms (it's only got two). So extend the Manchesters all the way to Milford/Fishguard/Pembroke? Would it be a reasonable use of 5 coaches to do that? TfW aren't going to be running all 5 coaches to Milford Haven when the 197s come in. Does the infrastructure allow it?

TLDR - Working out where to split that service that provides a good solution operationally and for passengers is difficult. There are solutions. No doubt there will be investigations when the scheme becomes more concrete as to what the service pattern should be. You'll probably see other routes going from 197 to bi-modes/electric first. But.....who knows? I'm still assuming the service specification will be essentially the same as it is for Dec '24. Come back to me in 6 years.

 

[Jez]

I though the plan initially was to detatch 3 carriages at Swansea with 2 cars continuing to Carmarthen and Milford. Therefore 5 carriages Swansea-Manchester including a first class section. And 2 cars west of Swansea with no first class.

Ive seen it as two services joined together too but West Wales-Cardiff and Cardiff-Manchester rather than Manchester-Swansea.

 

[craigybagel]

I though the plan initially was to detatch 3 carriages at Swansea with 2 cars continuing to Carmarthen and Milford. Therefore 5 carriages Swansea-Manchester including a first class section. And 2 cars west of Swansea with no first class.

Ive seen it as two services joined together too but West Wales-Cardiff and Cardiff-Manchester rather than Manchester-Swansea.

That was indeed the initial plan. The MKIVs kind of threw a spanner in the works there. But as others have alluded to, there are so many overlapping markets and so few paths to fit so W&B always has to be some kind of compromise. Personally I don't believe the market for travel through Cardiff is all that large and the retention of the 2 hourly service is probably enough.

 

[sw1ller]

That was indeed the initial plan. The MKIVs kind of threw a spanner in the works there. But as others have alluded to, there are so many overlapping markets and so few paths to fit so W&B always has to be some kind of compromise. Personally I don't believe the market for travel through Cardiff is all that large and the retention of the 2 hourly service is probably enough.

Mid November for introduction now. Don’t hold your breath though.

EDIT. @craigybagel didnt mean to reply to your comment!!! No idea why my phones done that!!

 

[el_lnrd]

Mid November for introduction now. Don’t hold your breath though.

EDIT. @craigybagel didnt mean to reply to your comment!!! No idea why my phones done that!!

Any idea of the why of this delay ?

I am starting to wonder whether the Dec 2022 is workable without the Class 197.

 

[Bikeman78]

Any idea of the why of this delay ?

I am starting to wonder whether the Dec 2022 is workable without the Class 197.

It's pretty much the same as now. The extra loco hauls should free up some 175s. It depends on when the 170s start to go and how long the Northern 150s stay.

 

[43102EMR]

It's pretty much the same as now. The extra loco hauls should free up some 175s. It depends on when the 170s start to go and how long the Northern 150s stay.

TfW have claimed on Twitter the Northern 150s are to return in December.

 

[Peter Sarf]

TfW have claimed on Twitter the Northern 150s are to return in December.

Is it possible that the 231s will fill the gap left by departing Northern 150s ?. So its only the 170s and 175s that need to be replaced.

 

[craigybagel]

Any idea of the why of this delay ?

Yes. It's not anything to worry about.

I am starting to wonder whether the Dec 2022 is workable without the Class 197.

It's pretty much the same as now. The extra loco hauls should free up some 175s. It depends on when the 170s start to go and how long the Northern 150s stay.

The full loco diagrams should free up 3 175s. However the full service isn't likely to start in December.

Is it possible that the 231s will fill the gap left by departing Northern 150s ?. So its only the 170s and 175s that need to be replaced.

Between 197,230,231 and the extra MKIVs there should be quite a few things happening by December to release the Northern 150s, amongst other units.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Between 197,230,231 and the extra MKIVs there should be quite a few things happening by December to release the Northern 150s, amongst other units.

Are the two in bold expected to be in service by December then? The D-Trains have, of course, appeared barely ready recently.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Are the two in bold expected to be in service by December then? The D-Trains have, of course, appeared barely ready recently.

I think the 231s will be ready quite soon judging by activity and what staff have said. They also have entered service successfully in another part of the UK as a Bi-Mode (755s). But as for the 230s I am not optimistic.

 

[43102EMR]

Is it possible that the 231s will fill the gap left by departing Northern 150s ?. So its only the 170s and 175s that need to be replaced.

Have the 175s found a new home yet? Otherwise internal cascading on some North Wales Coast/West Wales routes can easily make up the shortfall.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Have the 175s found a new home yet? Otherwise internal cascading on some North Wales Coast/West Wales routes can easily make up the shortfall.

No, but you can read all about where we all think they'll end up on the designated 175 Future discussion in Speculative Discussion. There's quite a lot of ideas!

 

[craigybagel]

Are the two in bold expected to be in service by December then? The D-Trains have, of course, appeared barely ready recently.

Hopefully.

 

[Jez]

Yes. It's not anything to worry about.



The full loco diagrams should free up 3 175s. However the full service isn't likely to start in December.

Between 197,230,231 and the extra MKIVs there should be quite a few things happening by December to release the Northern 150s, amongst other units.

The 3 175s freed up should only be able to replace the 3 or so 158/150s which seem to daily turn up on the Manchester-Milfords. I guess these 3 sprinters will replace some of the 170s that are going.

 

[craigybagel]

The 3 175s freed up should only be able to replace the 3 or so 158/150s which seem to daily turn up on the Manchester-Milfords. I guess these 3 sprinters will replace some of the 170s that are going.

There aren't any 158s/150s booked on those services though, on weekdays at least. Granted 175 availability has been poor of late, but on paper that's what's allocated to those services.

In any case, I doubt we'll see any kind of like for like replacements, but more of a cascade.

 

[Jez]

There aren't any 158s/150s booked on those services though, on weekdays at least. Granted 175 availability has been poor of late, but on paper that's what's allocated to those services.

In any case, I doubt we'll see any kind of like for like replacements, but more of a cascade.

Most days there seem to be 2 or 3 sprinters covering for 175 diagrams so if there are less 175s required due to the MK4 from December this should in turn help to ensure almost all Milford to Manchester are worked by 175s whilst the sprinters that have been covering can do Maesteg and Ebbw Vale in place of 170s

Even though on paper they should be 175s there clearly aren't enough available recently if 2 or 3 daily are 158 or 150. Some days 4 diagrams have been covered by sprinters.

I get what you are saying though and in theory there should be 2 or 3 extra 175s free to work away from the Marches line. It will be interesting to see what happens from December.

 

[Philip]

Most days there seem to be 2 or 3 sprinters covering for 175 diagrams so if there are less 175s required due to the MK4 from December this should in turn help to ensure almost all Milford to Manchester are worked by 175s whilst the sprinters that have been covering can do Maesteg and Ebbw Vale in place of 170s

Even though on paper they should be 175s there clearly aren't enough available recently if 2 or 3 daily are 158 or 150. Some days 4 diagrams have been covered by sprinters.

I get what you are saying though and in theory there should be 2 or 3 extra 175s free to work away from the Marches line. It will be interesting to see what happens from December.

I think some Manchester-South Wales diagrams/services will be formed of two 175s joined together, so this will probably account for the three going spare from December. There will be more going spare once the 197s start covering Manchester-North Wales, although by this time it probably won't be long before 197s start to appear in South Wales.

 

[craigybagel]

I get what you are saying though and in theory there should be 2 or 3 extra 175s free to work away from the Marches line. It will be interesting to see what happens from December.

Hopefully unit availablity will be better in December. It's not just the 175s that are struggling, though obviously on the Manchester - South Wales route issues with 175s are most noticeable.

I think some Manchester-South Wales diagrams/services will be formed of two 175s joined together, so this will probably account for the three going spare from December. There will be more going spare once the 197s start covering Manchester-North Wales, although by this time it probably won't be long before 197s start to appear in South Wales.

Going from RTT it looks like there are two services that arrive into Manchester as two coupled units and split to form two separate departures south (1915 arrival from Milford Haven forms 1930 and 2030 departures to Cardiff Central. 2115 arrival from Milford Haven forms 2130 and 2232 departures to Shrewsbury). It's not known yet what type of units these will be, and I've not gone far enough into RTT to work out if those units stay together all day prior to their arrival into Manchester or if they're added on layer

 

[anamyd]

It's my understanding that 175 availability and reliability has been poor lately because the now-CAF Chester 197 depot just sends them to Longsight because they only care about the 197s.

 

[Jez]

So from the December timetable change can we expect to see the 197s in service on just the Conwy Valley and Liverpool-Chester or will some be on the Manchester-North Wales also?

If they are on all 3 of the above then along with the MK4 sets on some Cardiff-Manchester's this should free up quite a few 175s and Sprinters for the South Wales services currently covered by 170s.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It's my understanding that 175 availability and reliability has been poor lately because the now-CAF Chester 197 depot just sends them to Longsight because they only care about the 197s.

It is true that the relative homelessness of the 175s is bound to have a negative effect on reliability. The 197s need to be brought in asap once maintenance slides on the 175s.

 

[Bob Price]

There are a lot of ROG runs operating overnight on the North Wales coast. Check out 3Q92/3/4. There are others to Wilmslow and back to Crewe but they are labelled EPS and not ECS. Wonder if there are the parcel 319 or 769 they own?

 

[sw1ller]

Was told by a CAF engineer the other night that 17 197’s have to be in service before the 175’s start getting replaced on a 1 for 1 basis. Did we know this? Have I missed that. Also, the first 197 needs 5000 miles fault free running and that’s not yet been achieved. Don’t know if he’s correct of course but I’ve no reason to think he was lying.

 

[Geeves]

It's my understanding that 175 availability and reliability has been poor lately because the now-CAF Chester 197 depot just sends them to Longsight because they only care about the 197s.

That sounds a little personal, I think more likely is that now CAF have taken over the depot from Alstom and seeing as the nearest depot being run by them is Longsight that's where they go now. Its just business.