Liz Truss and the Conservative Party.

[Gloster]

Downing Street is now saying that Morton is still the Chief Whip.

 

[RichJF]

I mustn't be the only one thinking just call a general election & be done with it?

 

[High Dyke]

At this point it feels like watching slow-motion footage an Euro NCAP test.

I think the crash test dummies have already impacted.

 

[WatcherZero]

Robert Peston is saying he was informed at 1:30am that the price for getting the chief whip and her deputy to unresign was to treat the vote as a three line whip afterall and punish those who didnt support the government without a reasonable excuse.

 

[uglymonkey]

What if labour just walked out and refused to participate in this farce, would that force an election?

 

[DelayRepay]

Robert Peston is saying he was informed at 1:30am that the price for getting the chief whip and her deputy to unresign was to treat the vote as a three line whip afterall and punish those who didnt support the government without a reasonable excuse.

... which appears to include the Prime Minister, who abstained. Not sure if her excuse will be deemed reasonable. Reported that she was outside the voting lobby having an argument with the Chief Whip, who also abstained!

 

[duncanp]

What if labour just walked out and refused to participate in this farce, would that force an election?

Perhaps Sir Keir Starmer should call a vote of no confidence in the government next week.

That would bring matters to a head.

 

[WatcherZero]

Problem is turkeys dont vote for Christmas. No matter how inept they are after glancing at the polls they wont vote themselves out of the job.

 

[Bantamzen]

A pretty depressing day in a period of depressing politics all round yesterday. We know that the Tories are rattling themselves apart, and yesterday's PMQs was a stunningly good chance for the opposition to stick the political knife in deep but they fell miserably short, again. Labour may be killing it in the opinion polls, but I have little confidence that they are actually a viable alternative at the moment. They seem far more comfortable in point scoring than policy building, I don't think they'd fair well on the government side of the house.

And then to add insult to injury, the Tories acted with complete contempt and disgraceful behaviour in trying to defeat Labour's motion. They simply don't care what they do or how they do it any more. We really need a general election as soon as possible, but we need a viable alternative that are actually capable of turning this country's ailing fortunes around. Sadly I see nothing but overgrown children, as the Speaker said last night, "on both sides of the House!".

 

[Gloster]

It has been reported, I can’t remember where, that Truss was paired. I think that that is a valid reason for not voting, although it is bad management for the PM to be paired for such a high profile vote. And should the PM be paired anyway?

 

[Berliner]

What if labour just walked out and refused to participate in this farce, would that force an election?

The tories wouldn't bat an eyelid and just continue as they are.

We aren't getting an election. No way. This lot aren't going to give up power that easily. What in the last few years have they done that shows they are in any way interested in democracy?

 

[Falcon1200]

I mustn't be the only one thinking just call a general election & be done with it?

Never thought I would say that, not having much time for the Corbyn-supporting Sir Keir, but yes, a General Election now, because our Government has lost all authority and respect, whether or not Truss goes down with the SS Torytanic.

 

[SuspectUsual]

One other observation on yesterday. Home Secretary is one of the great offices of state, and normally when the role becomes vacant it’s filled by promoting a Secretary of State from another department.

For Truss to choose to fill the role by appointing both (1) someone from outside government and (2) someone she sacked for disloyalty six weeks ago is simply staggering.

Either she’s had some sort of Damascene conversion or it wasn’t her choice

 

[DarloRich]

Either she’s had some sort of Damascene conversion or it wasn’t her choice

I suspect the later!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Problem is turkeys dont vote for Christmas. No matter how inept they are after glancing at the polls they wont vote themselves out of the job.

Amazingly Corbyn was gormless enough to do that, though, and I don't credit Truss with any more intelligence than him.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2022 ==

Either she’s had some sort of Damascene conversion or it wasn’t her choice

I always said she was a muppet, seems she's taken it literally and let someone else pull her strings.

 

[reddragon]

I cannot see any way the Tories are going to win the next election.

What really annoys me about this - aside from the sheer awfulness of the reports of the Government harassing and possibly assaulting its own backbenchers to make them vote the way it wants, is that while all this is going on, you have Putin declaring Marshall law in the occupied territories and looking like he may possibly be forcibly relocating Ukrainian citizens against their will. A physical assault on a man, apparently organised by Chinese consulate officials on British soil and causing that man to require hospital treatment. Mass abuse of women in Iran, while that country also breaks sanctions to sell drones to Russia that are being used to kill civilians. All things that require absolute urgent responses by the British Government, but instead we have a Government apparently so paralysed by its own attempts to stay in office that it no longer seems able to focus on anything else.

Wow, I agree with you for once!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2022 ==

I cannot see any way the Tories are going to win the next election.

What really annoys me about this - aside from the sheer awfulness of the reports of the Government harassing and possibly assaulting its own backbenchers to make them vote the way it wants, is that while all this is going on, you have Putin declaring Marshall law in the occupied territories and looking like he may possibly be forcibly relocating Ukrainian citizens against their will. A physical assault on a man, apparently organised by Chinese consulate officials on British soil and causing that man to require hospital treatment. Mass abuse of women in Iran, while that country also breaks sanctions to sell drones to Russia that are being used to kill civilians. All things that require absolute urgent responses by the British Government, but instead we have a Government apparently so paralysed by its own attempts to stay in office that it no longer seems able to focus on anything else.

Liz Truss & Co are Russian agents

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2022 ==

A pretty depressing day in a period of depressing politics all round yesterday. We know that the Tories are rattling themselves apart, and yesterday's PMQs was a stunningly good chance for the opposition to stick the political knife in deep but they fell miserably short, again. Labour may be killing it in the opinion polls, but I have little confidence that they are actually a viable alternative at the moment. They seem far more comfortable in point scoring than policy building, I don't think they'd fair well on the government side of the house.

And then to add insult to injury, the Tories acted with complete contempt and disgraceful behaviour in trying to defeat Labour's motion. They simply don't care what they do or how they do it any more. We really need a general election as soon as possible, but we need a viable alternative that are actually capable of turning this country's ailing fortunes around. Sadly I see nothing but overgrown children, as the Speaker said last night, "on both sides of the House!".

If I was Labour, I'd keep my policies under wraps until election time came thus minimising the chances of the Tory press spending months vilifying it

 

[GS250]

At least now, without their beloved EU to use as a deflection, the UK political class have been well and truly smoked out for what they really are. Unable to govern a sovereign state.

Then again, as I've suggested, Britain has become virtually ungovernable anyway.

A posting above regarding to the opposition says it all too. Even less confidence in them as opposed to the current fiasco.

 

[nw1]

Would have been interesting how that would have panned out. Dare I say UKIP would have swelled in size and become even more vocal than ever. Cameron would have probably resigned and been replaced with someone very Eurosceptic.

However Milliband didn't get in as he offered the same tired out manifesto that was beginning to wane with the former red wall.

I suspect personally that Miliband would have ended up heading a moderate centre-left government, and not been radically different to Blair. The late 2010s would have been probably economically relatively good times, which would have helped the incumbents.

Maybe as time went on the anti-EU cult would have waned, and with austerity behind us people would have less motivation to use immigrants as a scapegoat for their problems. Also, with Trump winning in 2016, more and more people would have seen the downside of right-wing populism, and by the time we had the next election (a hypothetical 2020 election, say) we'd have had almost the full four years of Trump. This may have in turn dissuaded people from voting for a right-wing populist government here.

On the other hand, Boris Johnson would probably have ended up becoming Tory leader by 2020. So we might have still ended up with a Boris win at roughly the same time. Perhaps he would have tried to do Brexit but perhaps the anti-EU fetish would have died down (helped by Trump demonstrating the dangers of right-wing populism) and we'd have just stayed in the EU.

So right now, Boris could be PM - but we'd still be in the EU and, as someone who blows with the wind, he might have ended up a substantially less bad PM than was actually the case.

 

[najaB]

So right now, Boris could be PM - but we'd still be in the EU and, as someone who blows with the wind, he might have ended up a substantially less bad PM than was actually the case.

Well, he very much was pro-EU until he wasn't.

 

[nw1]

At least now, without their beloved EU to use as a deflection, the UK political class have been well and truly smoked out for what they really are. Unable to govern a sovereign state.

Truss and her "beloved EU" ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2022 ==

Well, he very much was pro-EU until he wasn't.

Precisely. I never minded Boris when he was London mayor. As I said, someone who blows with the wind, and does what his audience want, without applying any filters.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Never thought I would say that, not having much time for the Corbyn-supporting Sir Keir, but yes, a General Election now, because our Government has lost all authority and respect, whether or not Truss goes down with the SS Torytanic.

I also agree with this. I've defended the Government and the Tories a lot in the past against many of the sillier criticisms that people have thrown at them. But what we saw last night (and for that matter, over most of the last month) has been appalling and farcical. The Government no longer seems capable of Governing and no longer seems to have any legitimate democratic authority. Aside from anything else, winning a vote by manhandling MPs to make them vote for you is utterly unacceptable. When you reach that point, you know you need a general election.

 

[nw1]

The tories wouldn't bat an eyelid and just continue as they are.

We aren't getting an election. No way. This lot aren't going to give up power that easily. What in the last few years have they done that shows they are in any way interested in democracy?

I do think this is a pessimistic view. One has to remember that these are unprecedented times when it comes to government conduct. Within my lifetime, no government, of any colour, has ever behaved as this one is doing.

So comparisons with any past government, Tory or Labour, are simply not accurate.

When you see Tory supporters calling for an election (which the Tories have no chance of winning), it shows that the normal rules for these things do not apply.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2022 ==

... which appears to include the Prime Minister, who abstained. Not sure if her excuse will be deemed reasonable. Reported that she was outside the voting lobby having an argument with the Chief Whip, who also abstained!

And Kwasi, and Patel. The "fifth Beatle", Skidmore, too, though to be fair he seems more environmentally-minded than the others.

"We are very naughty 'Britannia Unchained'-ers. We have disobeyed ourselves, and we must punish ourselves".

 

[Howardh]

A pretty depressing day in a period of depressing politics all round yesterday. We know that the Tories are rattling themselves apart, and yesterday's PMQs was a stunningly good chance for the opposition to stick the political knife in deep but they fell miserably short, again. Labour may be killing it in the opinion polls, but I have little confidence that they are actually a viable alternative at the moment. They seem far more comfortable in point scoring than policy building, I don't think they'd fair well on the government side of the house.

And then to add insult to injury, the Tories acted with complete contempt and disgraceful behaviour in trying to defeat Labour's motion. They simply don't care what they do or how they do it any more. We really need a general election as soon as possible, but we need a viable alternative that are actually capable of turning this country's ailing fortunes around. Sadly I see nothing but overgrown children, as the Speaker said last night, "on both sides of the House!".

Surely the best thing Starmer can do is just sit on the sidelines watching the Tories tear themselves apart? Think if you asked the opposition which Tory they most want as PM they've nailed it! No sir, leave well alone! On the other hand I can't think of one Tory who can save them, not one in parliament anyway.

 

[nw1]

The real reason Braverman resigned imo is that all the newspapers were briefed last week that the almost-ready-to-be-announced Trade Deal with India was scuppered by Suella's strongly expressed opinions that most 'overstaying' of visas in the U.K. was by their citizens -this was reported in all three newspapers I buy, the i. the Times and the Sunday Times.

I certainly think there is more to it than the stated reason, and I say this as a decided anti-fan of Braverman. You don't get sacked, with no warning, for sending an email from your personal account, unless it's something very high-security such as defence-related material.

I thought it was the anti Guardian-reading tofu-eating woke thing (because such comments to me sound extremist, and presumably the Government would see it as bad PR) but quite possibly it's something else.

Maybe technocrat Streynsham is indeed pulling all the strings now.

 

[Howardh]

I certainly think there is more to it than the stated reason, and I say this as a decided anti-fan of Braverman. You don't get sacked, with no warning, for sending an email from your personal account, unless it's something very high-security such as defence-related material.

I thought it was the anti Guardian-reading tofu-eating woke thing (because such comments to me sound extremist, and presumably the Government would see it as bad PR) but quite possibly it's something else.

Maybe technocrat Streynsham is indeed pulling all the strings now.

Was there a row between her and Truss r/e immigration? There is an Urgent Question this morning in the House to try to clear things up.

 

[Berliner]

I do think this is a pessimistic view. One has to remember that these are unprecedented times when it comes to government conduct. Within my lifetime, no government, of any colour, has ever behaved as this one is doing.

So comparisons with any past government, Tory or Labour, are simply not accurate.

When you see Tory supporters calling for an election (which the Tories have no chance of winning), it shows that the normal rules for these things do not apply.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2022 ==



And Kwasi, and Patel. The "fifth Beatle", Skidmore, too, though to be fair he seems more environmentally-minded than the others.

"We are very naughty 'Britannia Unchained'-ers. We have disobeyed ourselves, and we must punish ourselves".

There isn't much to be optimistic about in UK politics. Even if Labour win we will continue down this brexit inspired path as they are too scared to consider the alternative.

Thay aside, it doesn't matter what the public want or what's come before. The tories, especially this current crop, are simply never going to vote themselves out of a job. There are very few with any morals and very few have spoken out publicly against the mess we have in power snd even they won't quit the party in protest. Truss has the numbers on her side and until she doesn't she can get away with whatever she wants. Boris set the bar so low and got away with unprecedented things for so long it's no wonder we are where we are now. Only tories leaving in their droves to either form a new block or join Labour will send that message to Truss and none appear to want to do that.

 

[nw1]

Surely the best thing Starmer can do is just sit on the sidelines watching the Tories tear themselves apart? Think if you asked the opposition which Tory they most want as PM they've nailed it! No sir, leave well alone! On the other hand I can't think of one Tory who can save them, not one in parliament anyway.

Exactly. Just because they want to point-score now, it doesn't mean they wouldn't be reasonable in government.

In any case I doubt they could do a worse job than the current government of chaos.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2022 ==

There isn't much to be optimistic about in UK politics. Even if Labour win we will continue down this brexit inspired path as they are too scared to consider the alternative.

Again I think this is pessimistic. We are seeing the problems with isolationism. While I doubt Labour would attempt to rejoin, I do think they will wish to restore good relations with the EU. I suspect that the percentage of people who still fanatically support Brexit, and would oppose restoration of good relations with the EU, is pretty low. And also, "hard Brexit" was a Tory thing. The Tories want to stick with it, to uphold their pride. Labour would have wanted either a softer Brexit or no Brexit at all, so they have no reason to continue with frosty and uncompromising relations with the EU. They will, I strongly suspect, take a more pragmatic and middle-of-the-road approach.

Thay aside, it doesn't matter what the public want or what's come before. The tories, especially this current crop, are simply never going to vote themselves out of a job. There are very few with any morals and very few have spoken out publicly against the mess we have in power snd even they won't quit the party in protest. Truss has the numbers on her side and until she doesn't she can get away with whatever she wants. Boris set the bar so low and got away with unprecedented things for so long it's no wonder we are where we are now. Only tories leaving in their droves to either form a new block or join Labour will send that message to Truss and none appear to want to do that.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree - I strongly think otherwise, for the reasons I stated in my message.

 

[kristiang85]

Matt Chorley
@MattChorley
Tory MP texts: "It's happening. We are in the end game."

If Truss lasts the day I'll be very surprised. To be honest, I'm amazed she actually wants to subject herself to all this for any longer.

 

[GS250]

I also agree with this. I've defended the Government and the Tories a lot in the past against many of the sillier criticisms that people have thrown at them. But what we saw last night (and for that matter, over most of the last month) has been appalling and farcical. The Government no longer seems capable of Governing and no longer seems to have any legitimate democratic authority. Aside from anything else, winning a vote by manhandling MPs to make them vote for you is utterly unacceptable. When you reach that point, you know you need a general election.

This is exactly my take. I've often held my nose and voted for the Tories. However, I'm not wedded to them, am not a member or donator. If someone better came along I would happily vote for them. Most voters are like cats. They go where the best deal is.

 

[jon0844]

There isn't much to be optimistic about in UK politics. Even if Labour win we will continue down this brexit inspired path as they are too scared to consider the alternative.

Thay aside, it doesn't matter what the public want or what's come before. The tories, especially this current crop, are simply never going to vote themselves out of a job. There are very few with any morals and very few have spoken out publicly against the mess we have in power snd even they won't quit the party in protest. Truss has the numbers on her side and until she doesn't she can get away with whatever she wants. Boris set the bar so low and got away with unprecedented things for so long it's no wonder we are where we are now. Only tories leaving in their droves to either form a new block or join Labour will send that message to Truss and none appear to want to do that.

I expect Labour will wait to get in before deciding that the sensible move is to join the single market and customs union. If more moderate Tories take back control of the party, they might even do it.

Ukraine and Covid played their part but Brexit is doing much of the harm now and preventing growth, so if things ever settle down it needs to be talked about. Fingers in the ears and shouting won't work any longer.