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The railways should be brought into public ownership ASAP

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Llanigraham

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When you say problem, do you mean 'there shouldnt be people in the same organisation doing similar jobs on totally different terms and conditions'? If so then I agree, but I suspect its been a problem since the birth of railways, as companies have been taken over or amalgamated. Same thing happened in 1948 no doubt.

All you can do is make sure going forward all new starts are on the 'new' terms, and try and negotiate away the old ones, but if it fails dont turn it into trench warfare just accept it for what it is and that each year the problem will be a bit smaller. If you re-nationalised today there would be people still on T&Cs from BR days. The alternative of a mass fire and rehire is just going to poison things even more, and to be honest I dont think would be the difference between nationalisation succeding or failing, its just one of many problems facing the industry. Go for the low hanging fruit first because very often once you have dealt with the easier to fix problems whats left often then dont seem as bad.

So what "new terms"?
Are you saying that the requirements and therefore the Contract of Employment for say a signaller or an S & T Tech should be the same as a guard or a driver? Do you really see that as being possible?
I do think that you are being somewhat simplistic in what is a very complex industry.
 
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Watershed

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Evidently you either can’t (or don’t want to) understand how businesses are bought and sold. The buyer pays what they think it is worth, including the assets and liabilities and taking into account other risks and opportunities. To be clear: BR’s rolling stock was not gifted for nothing.

It is very easy to sit here with the benefit of hindsight, but at the time there were a lot of unknowns about rail privatisation - for a start the Labour opposition were quite vocal about re-nationalisation. That’s a pretty big risk when the Government was privatising against the clock to the next general election.
Whilst that's true, a firesale is always going to result in selling under full market value. And that's effectively what happened when the ROSCOs were flogged off.

It hardly requires hindsight to realise that the ROSCOs shouldn't have been sold in such a rush, purely to accommodate political dogma.
 

Irascible

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Network Rail (and TfL etc) own all of the infrastructure

Do they own all the maintenance infrastructure, or is there still a heritage of 500 interfaces to fragmented organisations actually managing the system?

The DfT take all of the decisions about which services to run/ cut/ prioritise and when to buy new rolling stock (e.g. the successful IET contract!)
[snip]
If this isn’t sufficient “public ownership” for some people then it’s hard to see what difference nationalising a few M&S Simply Food branches is going to make

Again there's interface issues... DfT, TOC, ROSCO, NR and the unions with all of them. BR wasn't monolithic ( especially when it started recovering ) but at least there was a chance you could fold jobs into one when it made sense. That is not in itself an argument for undoing "privatisation" as it's quite possible to do that in the private sector too, but it is an argument against the current situation. What other practical way forward is there as of now?

BR could also fight the MoT somewhat, being a little more removed and also a large entity, that is certainly something I think needs restoring.
 
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JamesT

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Do they own all the maintenance infrastructure, or is there still a heritage of 500 interfaces to fragmented organisations actually managing the system?
Network Rail took direct control of maintenance of the infrastructure in the Sussex area from contractor AMEC on Saturday 24 July. The transfer forms the final piece of the maintenance jigsaw, with 100% of the national rail network now under the direct control of Network Rail.
That sounds like NR own it all.
 

43096

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Whilst that's true, a firesale is always going to result in selling under full market value. And that's effectively what happened when the ROSCOs were flogged off.

It hardly requires hindsight to realise that the ROSCOs shouldn't have been sold in such a rush, purely to accommodate political dogma.
I fully agree. But that's hardly the fault of the ROSCOs (and they've been sold on a few times since) - it was the environment they were created in. The history of how they were created and the value of the MOLA fleets they inherited is now a sideshow as there's huge amounts of trains that have been bought new by the ROSCOs in the last 25 years.
 

zwk500

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Do they own all the maintenance infrastructure, or is there still a heritage of 500 interfaces to fragmented organisations actually managing the system?
What do you mean by the 'maintenance infrastructure?' (Not being pedantic/annoying, just unclear exactly what you're referring to)
 

Watershed

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What do you mean by the 'maintenance infrastructure?' (Not being pedantic/annoying, just unclear exactly what you're referring to)
Indeed; maintenance is not the same as renewals or repairs, let alone enhancements.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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How anyone without a vested interest can argue that railways aren't brought back into public ownership asap is completely beyond my comprehension.
What exactly do you mean by "brought back into public ownership"?

The government (DfT, TfL, and devolved authorities) own all infrastructure other than the Heathrow branch.
All passenger services are owned by government bodies (and mostly contracted out to the private sector for limited periods - they all revert to HMG control at the end of these contracts).
The government regulates many fares, including seasons, and the ticketing system.
All this is due to be centralised and managed by government-owned GBR when it launches.

Only freight and open access operators are outside government control, and they are subject to regulation by ORR.
HS1 operation is also leased to the private sector, the government taking a fee.

Public ownership also takes many forms, and devolution means there is no chance any one administration will control the whole GB railway again, as BR almost did.
 

mike57

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So what "new terms"?
Are you saying that the requirements and therefore the Contract of Employment for say a signaller or an S & T Tech should be the same as a guard or a driver? Do you really see that as being possible?
I do think that you are being somewhat simplistic in what is a very complex industry.
No obviously terms are different for different jobs, but terms for the same job need to aligned across the industry, and and any new national terms for specific jobs/grades need to reflect that the railways are a 7 day a week operation as an example. I realise there will be people on old T&Cs who will not want to change, even if a financial incentive is offered, but these will gradually diminish over the years as people retire or leave
 

deltic

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Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/fraud-by-avanti.238352/

How anyone without a vested interest can argue that railways aren't brought back into public ownership asap is completely beyond my comprehension.
London Underground is in public ownership. First TOC to remove guards from all its trains, first TOC to close all its ticket offices, leases all its new rolling stock, and has regular disputes with its workforce.
 

Thirteen

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London Underground is in public ownership. First TOC to remove guards from all its trains, first TOC to close all its ticket offices, leases all its new rolling stock, and has regular disputes with its workforce.
I agree, anyone who thinks the railways going back into public ownership will prevent disputes is kidding themselves.
 

ComUtoR

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No obviously terms are different for different jobs,
Accepted

but terms for the same job need to aligned across the industry,

How is this possible ? Take the role of 'Driver' Does a 2-Car equate to the same as a 12-Car ? I drive up to 100mph units. Does that make me less than someone who drives with TVM and at 140mph ? I can stop at over 100 stops a day. Would a Driver who stopped at 20 be paid less ? I also 'sign' 7 different traction units (can be broken down to 3 'types') Should I get a premium over someone who only sings a single traction ?

This can be applicable for any role. I'm not a Guard but I imagine they have similar differences across their grade.

Same grade/role doesn't mean we are all equal. That wil be a massive hurdle to overcome.


and and any new national terms for specific jobs/grades need to reflect that the railways are a 7 day a week operation as an example.

Agreed. There needs to be a shift towards modern working practices. Sadly, this is all about cost. We live in a world where someone is literaly counting the number of coats someone is issued per year and calculating that additional staff will also cost additional uniform so it's not a good cost/benefit ratio.

I realise there will be people on old T&Cs who will not want to change, even if a financial incentive is offered, but these will gradually diminish over the years as people retire or leave

The first step on that path is to remove collective bargaining or take a huge financial hit.
 

Watershed

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How is this possible ? Take the role of 'Driver' Does a 2-Car equate to the same as a 12-Car ? I drive up to 100mph units. Does that make me less than someone who drives with TVM and at 140mph ? I can stop at over 100 stops a day. Would a Driver who stopped at 20 be paid less ? I also 'sign' 7 different traction units (can be broken down to 3 'types') Should I get a premium over someone who only sings a single traction ?

This can be applicable for any role. I'm not a Guard but I imagine they have similar differences across their grade.

Same grade/role doesn't mean we are all equal. That wil be a massive hurdle to overcome.
I don't think this argument really stands up to scrutiny. There are huge differences within TOCs in terms of the number of routes and traction types signed, as well as the type of work undertaken. Yet all their drivers are paid the same salary, except where there are historic differences in T&Cs (e.g. Greater Anglia's former FGE/WAGN/one divisions).

Effectively you are making the argument for the reintroduction of mileage/shift etc. allowances, but the direction of travel in the industry over the last few decades has very much been away from such complexities - in part due to the administration required to keep track of things.

The biggest issue is simply that the unions would insist on everyone moving to the most favourable terms. And that would destroy any saving from having uniform T&Cs.

A much more feasible way of improving efficiency would be for TOCs to be able to cross-cover each other's services, and indeed do so on a planned basis - i.e. to remove the "Chinese walls" that currently exist. It's not a new concept, and still happens in some areas.
 

ComUtoR

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I don't think this argument really stands up to scrutiny. There are huge differences within TOCs in terms of the number of routes and traction types signed, as well as the type of work undertaken. Yet all their drivers are paid the same salary, except where there are historic differences in T&Cs (e.g. Greater Anglia's former FGE/WAGN/one divisions).

Which isn't strictly true. At my TOC (relatively recent) There was an introduction of new stock and new routes and those Drivers are paid higher. I also work DOO and my TOC has had the split between Metro/Mainline. We do not get the same salary. In the almost 20yrs I've worked here, its been different.


Effectively you are making the argument for the reintroduction of mileage/shift etc. allowances

I make no argument for anything. I'm not sure where you have go that from. What my point was, and still is, is that you cannot have a standard salary based purely on someone's role. The role of a Driver is significantly different across the network. If anyone wanted to unify terms, conditions, pay, etc. then how do you begin to determine what the role of Driver should be, what it entails, and what is meant by 'doing the same/similar job'. Because quite clearly, we ain't.


, but the direction of travel in the industry over the last few decades has very much been away from such complexities - in part due to the administration required to keep track of things.

Again, I don't believe this to be true and introduction of 'New starter' contracts would complicate matters further.


The biggest issue is simply that the unions would insist on everyone moving to the most favourable terms. And that would destroy any saving from having uniform T&Cs.

Again, this doesn't reflect the reality. One of the reasons why harmonisation never works is because you often have to give up something. A TOC with higher wages generally takes the hit as those below are slowly moved up. The TOC with favourable conditions need a lot of convincing to what those conditions are worth. Interestingly a few years ago. GTR were specifically told what their Sundays were worth. Incorporating those into the working week now has a fixed value. You could, if you were evil enough, create a situation where the harmonisation process would tip in a specific way because one TOC had more significant voting power.

Any kind of uniform T&Cs are doomed from the outset. Don't forget that ASLEF do have a uniform set of goal and conditions they are aiming for. They would absolutely support more universal terms and pay. The biggest barriers are the TOCs and the Government. The Unions are just an easy target to blame.


A much more feasible way of improving efficiency would be for TOCs to be able to cross-cover each other's services, and indeed do so on a planned basis - i.e. to remove the "Chinese walls" that currently exist. It's not a new concept, and still happens in some areas.

I've cross covered another TOC. It's poisonous and creates a toxic culture. It is also far more complicated than you imagine. You literally go from one station to the next and find yourself on different driving policies, different rules, and an entirely different safety case. If you were cross covering a TOC and you had an incident, which safety case should you be treated under ? Which Driver Manager gets the on-call responsibility ? Whose disciplinary procedure do you fall under ? On a basic level; who picks up the delay attribution ?
 

Watershed

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Which isn't strictly true. At my TOC (relatively recent) There was an introduction of new stock and new routes and those Drivers are paid higher. I also work DOO and my TOC has had the split between Metro/Mainline. We do not get the same salary. In the almost 20yrs I've worked here, its been different.
Ok, so there are individual agreements in some places. But the broad principle is absolutely true. Harrogate drivers, who only ever go between Leeds and York on 170s, get paid the same as York drivers who sign from Manchester to Newcastle and Hull, and 6 different traction types.

I make no argument for anything. I'm not sure where you have go that from. What my point was, and still is, is that you cannot have a standard salary based purely on someone's role. The role of a Driver is significantly different across the network. If anyone wanted to unify terms, conditions, pay, etc. then how do you begin to determine what the role of Driver should be, what it entails, and what is meant by 'doing the same/similar job'. Because quite clearly, we ain't.
I'm reading between the lines. And it's absolutely clear that you can have a standard salary, despite differences. It would just be unpalatable to re-establish a nationwide salary because of how high it would have to be to get agreement.

Again, I don't believe this to be true and introduction of 'New starter' contracts would complicate matters further.
The gradual eradication of allowances would suggest otherwise. Whilst 'new starter' contracts add a certain degree of complexity, they have been recognised as the most pragmatic option in even some very recently agreed deals.

Again, this doesn't reflect the reality. One of the reasons why harmonisation never works is because you often have to give up something. A TOC with higher wages generally takes the hit as those below are slowly moved up. The TOC with favourable conditions need a lot of convincing to what those conditions are worth. Interestingly a few years ago. GTR were specifically told what their Sundays were worth. Incorporating those into the working week now has a fixed value. You could, if you were evil enough, create a situation where the harmonisation process would tip in a specific way because one TOC had more significant voting power.

Any kind of uniform T&Cs are doomed from the outset. Don't forget that ASLEF do have a uniform set of goal and conditions they are aiming for. They would absolutely support more universal terms and pay. The biggest barriers are the TOCs and the Government. The Unions are just an easy target to blame.
I'm not at all convinced that that is the case.

I've cross covered another TOC. It's poisonous and creates a toxic culture. It is also far more complicated than you imagine. You literally go from one station to the next and find yourself on different driving policies, different rules, and an entirely different safety case. If you were cross covering a TOC and you had an incident, which safety case should you be treated under ? Which Driver Manager gets the on-call responsibility ? Whose disciplinary procedure do you fall under ? On a basic level; who picks up the delay attribution ?
These are (with respect) minor details and have clearly posed no impediment to cross-cover arrangements in the past, and at present.
 

ComUtoR

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I'm reading between the lines. And it's absolutely clear that you can have a standard salary, despite differences.

So where do you begin ? What is the baseline for 'Driver' ? Is a Driver who just runs about doing 10 stations stops a day less or more than a Driver who does 100+ ? This is incredibly important and establishing what the role is will be the first step.

It would just be unpalatable to re-establish a nationwide salary because of how high it would have to be to get agreement.

Because those differences are significant it would take a proverbial metric ton of cash to resolve. Ergo, it ain't gonna happen.

The gradual eradication of allowances would suggest otherwise.

Which aren't "eradicated" They are subsumed into basic pay. It GTR bought Sundays inside then the number is clear for all to see. I get where you are coming from with 'eradicated' but it neds to be stated that the cost involved or the difficulties involved will take years.


Whilst 'new starter' contracts add a certain degree of complexity, they have been recognised as the most pragmatic option in even some very recently agreed deals.

For sure. They are there to ease any transition period. Lets say that every single pay deal from tomorrow requires Sundays inside. The TOCs/Gov are prepared to accept the cost and force the issue (tbh this is what they should do) How many years before the last Driver at a TOC still has Sundays outside ? 12-18 months before the first Driver passes out with a new contract and then how long till natural wastage is at a significant level to reduce and remove the Sunday working problem ? Don't get me wrong, this is absolutely the way it should go and ASLEF have shown that they are more than willing to accept method. Again, the transition period isn't a quick fix or an easy road. (nor a cheap one)


These are (with respect) minor details and have clearly posed no impediment to cross-cover arrangements in the past, and at present.

I don't think that cross covering a companies safety case is minor. As I said, I know it happens and I've worked it. Just saying they are 'minor' without discussing any of the points I raised shows a lack of understanding. Just thinking about the money-go-round is enough to give someone a headache. Chuck in Driver competency and I'll need a few Gin and Tonics.
 

Watershed

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So where do you begin ? What is the baseline for 'Driver' ? Is a Driver who just runs about doing 10 stations stops a day less or more than a Driver who does 100+ ? This is incredibly important and establishing what the role is will be the first step.
Someone with a European Train Driving Licence, I'd suggest! :lol:

As I've said, I don't see a need for a distinction between the exact types of work undertaken unless you want to return to having a lower basic salary with enhancements based on the number of stops/miles driven etc.

Because those differences are significant it would take a proverbial metric ton of cash to resolve. Ergo, it ain't gonna happen.
Precisely. And that's what's really the blocker here.

For sure. They are there to ease any transition period. Lets say that every single pay deal from tomorrow requires Sundays inside. The TOCs/Gov are prepared to accept the cost and force the issue (tbh this is what they should do) How many years before the last Driver at a TOC still has Sundays outside ? 12-18 months before the first Driver passes out with a new contract and then how long till natural wastage is at a significant level to reduce and remove the Sunday working problem ? Don't get me wrong, this is absolutely the way it should go and ASLEF have shown that they are more than willing to accept method. Again, the transition period isn't a quick fix or an easy road. (nor a cheap one)
Given the fundamental issues, this almost seems like a minor detail! Of course you could offer the 'new starter' terms to existing staff too, and if the terms were sufficiently attractive, I'm sure you would get a reasonable number signing up.

I don't think that cross covering a companies safety case is minor. As I said, I know it happens and I've worked it. Just saying they are 'minor' without discussing any of the points I raised shows a lack of understanding. Just thinking about the money-go-round is enough to give someone a headache. Chuck in Driver competency and I'll need a few Gin and Tonics.
It's a paperwork issue at the end of the day. Whilst it's important to get it right, it's ultimately legal for the train to be driven under either safety case, and so it's just a question of agreeing it between the two operators. I'm rather more concerned if you were driving without knowing whose safety case you were running under!

Cross-cover is nothing new and probably offers the greatest potential for efficiency savings given the current industry structure.
 

ComUtoR

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As I've said, I don't see a need for a distinction between the exact types of work undertaken unless you want to return to having a lower basic salary with enhancements based on the number of stops/miles driven etc.

There needs to be a distinction because you need to have a starting point. You may not see the need to distinguish between types of work but I can outright say that any DOO Driver who drags round a 12-Car all day doing 100+ stops will be pretty peeved that someone 'tup norf gets the same money piddling about in a 2-Car with a Guard. It isn't the same job. Oh and I forgot yo add cost of living around the country. Not sure someone living in our glorious capital should be on the same as someone in the hellish backwater of some no name town.. <D

Precisely. And that's what's really the blocker here.

Agreed. However, I think that someone needs to not only bite the bullet, but swallow it too. Chipping away piecemeal isn't working. In 10yrs time we will still be having the same arguements over Sundays and Technology payments.

Given the fundamental issues, this almost seems like a minor detail! Of course you could offer the 'new starter' terms to existing staff too, and if the terms were sufficiently attractive, I'm sure you would get a reasonable number signing up

Very much so. It is an approach I'd support.

It's a paperwork issue at the end of the day.

But not to those working on the ground. It may be an paperwork issue behind the scenes but it causes chaos. I wish it was as easy as a flick of the pen but I've seen what happens on a day to day basis and it isn't a long term solution. Especially if it was opened up across the network.


Cross-cover is nothing new and probably offers the greatest potential for efficiency savings given the current industry structure.

Show me the money baby !

Show me how it's "efficient" for 3 Drivers to work the same service because each TOC has different terms and conditions or only sign part of a route. Show me how its 'efficient' to have a Driver off track for an extended period because the other TOC is hanging out the investigation. Show me where its efficient to speak to 2 different control points because nobody is taking responsibility and finally show me where the savings are when one TOC charges an obscene amount for renting out their Drivers. It's another money-go-round.

The only thing that the Transport Secretary got right was that the railway is stuck in the past and needs modernising.
 

Watershed

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There needs to be a distinction because you need to have a starting point. You may not see the need to distinguish between types of work but I can outright say that any DOO Driver who drags round a 12-Car all day doing 100+ stops will be pretty peeved that someone 'tup norf gets the same money piddling about in a 2-Car with a Guard. It isn't the same job. Oh and I forgot yo add cost of living around the country. Not sure someone living in our glorious capital should be on the same as someone in the hellish backwater of some no name town..
Not all work is equal, but that's life. There will always be local cost of living allowances, but that is completely different to paying someone more for doing lots of stops vs few.

Show me the money baby !

Show me how it's "efficient" for 3 Drivers to work the same service because each TOC has different terms and conditions or only sign part of a route. Show me how its 'efficient' to have a Driver off track for an extended period because the other TOC is hanging out the investigation. Show me where its efficient to speak to 2 different control points because nobody is taking responsibility and finally show me where the savings are when one TOC charges an obscene amount for renting out their Drivers. It's another money-go-round.

The only thing that the Transport Secretary got right was that the railway is stuck in the past and needs modernising.
Charging obscene amounts for drivers is almost a moot point given all franchised costs and revenues lie with the DfT. Of course they could tell TOCs to only charge each other realistic amounts to make it easier.

Whilst there are certainly scenarios where cross-cover adds complexity, equally I'm sure you recognise the inefficiency of having XC and LNER drivers based at Edinburgh with very similar route knowledge and just a difference in the traction they sign. Similarly at Glasgow and Preston with Avanti & TPE, Holyhead with Avanti & TfW, Shrewsbury with TfW & WMT, Horsham with TL & SN, Ashford and Gillingham with TL & SE....
 

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Not all work is equal, but that's life. There will always be local cost of living allowances, but that is completely different to paying someone more for doing lots of stops vs few.


Charging obscene amounts for drivers is almost a moot point given all franchised costs and revenues lie with the DfT. Of course they could tell TOCs to only charge each other realistic amounts to make it easier.

Whilst there are certainly scenarios where cross-cover adds complexity, equally I'm sure you recognise the inefficiency of having XC and LNER drivers based at Edinburgh with very similar route knowledge and just a difference in the traction they sign. Similarly at Glasgow and Preston with Avanti & TPE, Holyhead with Avanti & TfW, Shrewsbury with TfW & WMT, Horsham with TL & SN, Ashford and Gillingham with TL & SE....
Pretty much everywhere CrossCountry goes could really do with being crewed by local InterCity operators, and of course the LNER lodging turns too. Even the sleeper could have lodging turns eliminated if you put your mind to it!
 

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Pretty much everywhere CrossCountry goes could really do with being crewed by local InterCity operators, and of course the LNER lodging turns too. Even the sleeper could have lodging turns eliminated if you put your mind to it!

If you put your minds to it and also had an enormous amount of traction training at a considerable outlay and driver release (at a time when there are traincrew shortages).
 

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If you put your minds to it and also had an enormous amount of traction training at a considerable outlay and driver release (at a time when there are traincrew shortages).
Not necesarily;

Crewing LNER trains north of edinburgh with Scotrail staff would clearly require some training, but crewing the XC HSTs north of edinburgh with Scotrail staff, and using GWR staff in the west country wouldn't require training if you use the staff members already running HSTs there.

Now of course if you waited with implementing this untill XC has a new 80x fleet, and you crew it entirely with LNER/GWR/Avanti/Scotrail staff, the only one that would need to do significant traction training would be Scotrail (and of course the XC staff transferred to the other operators)

((I am aware that XC getting any type of new fleet is VERY wishful thinking on my part))

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Pretty much everywhere CrossCountry goes could really do with being crewed by local InterCity operators, and of course the LNER lodging turns too. Even the sleeper could have lodging turns eliminated if you put your mind to it!
How were you wanting to stop lodging turns for the sleeper?
 

HamworthyGoods

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Not necesarily;

Crewing LNER trains north of edinburgh with Scotrail staff would clearly require some training, but crewing the XC HSTs north of edinburgh with Scotrail staff, and using GWR staff in the west country wouldn't require training if you use the staff members already running HSTs there.

Now of course if you waited with implementing this untill XC has a new 80x fleet, and you crew it entirely with LNER/GWR/Avanti/Scotrail staff, the only one that would need to do significant traction training would be Scotrail (and of course the XC staff transferred to the other operators)

((I am aware that XC getting any type of new fleet is VERY wishful thinking on my part))

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


How were you wanting to stop lodging turns for the sleeper?

I’m not quite sure the fuss about trying to get rid of lodging turns? Hotels are actually relatively cheap than all the taxis that exist to get staff back to depot each night from berthing points.
 

Trainbike46

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I’m not quite sure the fuss about trying to get rid of lodging turns? Hotels are actually relatively cheap than all the taxis that exist to get staff back to depot each night from berthing points.
There's not that many lodging turns anyway is there?
LNER Inverness/Aberdeen services, as well as the sleeper? Any others I'm missing?
 

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There's not that many lodging turns anyway is there?
LNER Inverness/Aberdeen services, as well as the sleeper? Any others I'm missing?
CrossCountry have some lodging turns at Penzance I believe. May be wrong though.
 
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