Liz Truss and the Conservative Party.

[WesternLancer]

amused to find this thread didn't get re-opened after the leadership election....

When Will It All Go Wrong For The Tories/ Johnson?

The standard Tory approach - you know that £20 pw boost you lazy, scrounging, fraudulent, workshy scum have enjoyed spending on mobile phones, booze, fags and flat screen TV's? - well we want it back to give to our rich chums. The truth is for many people that £20 has been a godsend and has...

www.railforums.co.uk

"We have decided to lock this thread for the moment whilst the Tory leadership campaign is underway"

 

[DynamicSpirit]

What wasn't a factor in other countries was the profligate waste of tens of billions of pounds which was funnelled from the Treasury into the pockets of Tory donors. £1B for Eat out to Help Out, £5 billion for PPE that couldn't be used, £20 billion for Track and Trace...

Are you sure you're not falling into the fallacy of assuming everything must have been worse in our own country, just because that's the country we get the most news from? Realistically, if there had been some minor scandal in - say - Italy or Germany concerning the Government spending some billions of euros on something Covid-related that turned out to be a waste of money, on a scale broadly equivalent to something like our wasted Track and Trace, then unless you're a regular reader of Corriere della Sera or die Welt or some similar publication, you probably wouldn't know anything about it.

 

[Typhoon]

According to Paul Goodman of ConHome, apparently Truss wanted Braverman to announce a relaxed migration plan in order to improve the OBR growth forecasts, and they both had "the mother of all rows" about it:

https://twitter.com/PaulGoodmanCH/status/1582767147100811264

It is one thing after another

Tory MPs have been ordered to oppose a Labour move to ban fracking to show their loyalty to Liz Truss, or face expulsion from the parliamentary party.
Labour is trying to use a vote in the Commons this evening to force the introduction of a draft law banning the extraction of shale gas.
The government has told Tory MPs it sees the vote as a confidence motion.
But former ministers Chris Skidmore and Tracey Crouch have said they cannot support fracking.
Backbencher Angela Richardson has also indicated she will not support the government.

I thought Skidmore was one of the Britannia Unchained crew. There is no need to make a fuss about it, many who won't 'support' the government, will abstain, (maybe hide under their desks). It appears that rather than dampen the flames down, she is walking round with an uncapped petrol can. If she thinks this will reassert her authority, she is mistaken, it is a sign of the weak and ineffective. What she needed to show from the start was leadership, and a leader knows what direction they aim to travel in, having thought it through. Truss is not a leader.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63313824

 

[Tetchytyke]

Are you sure you're not falling into the fallacy of assuming everything must have been worse in our own country, just because that's the country we get the most news from?

Some of us are more widely-read than you give credit for, and also actually do live in other countries.

Track and trace was outsourced in the UK and the cost was staggering. Here track and trace was conducted by civil servants- I was one- and the cost per capita was a tiny fraction of what the UK handed over to Serco. And we were more efficient and effective, too.

I doubt we will ever get to the bottom of how much of the Covid response was inept procurement and how much was outright corruption. But the numbers in Private Eye should inspire rage in anyone who reads them.

 

[najaB]

Are you sure you're not falling into the fallacy of assuming everything must have been worse in our own country, just because that's the country we get the most news from?

I don't care what other governments did with their money (even when I do know) as it has zero impact on me. I care about what our government did with my tax money.

 

[Yew]

If 39 Conservatives vote against the government on the fracking debate at 7pm, then the goverment collapses.

Four have already said they will do that; it could get very interesting indeed.


In other news, Brian Clough was at Leeds one day longer than Braverman was Home Secretary.

“They say that Rome didn’t fall in a day, but I wasn’t on that particular job.”

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I don't care what other governments did with their money (even when I do know) as it has zero impact on me. I care about what our government did with my tax money.

Sure, and it's perfectly reasonable to care about what our Government did with your/our tax money.

But what is not reasonable (unless you have detailed comparable knowledge of lots of other countries on which to base your assumptions) is to presume that only the UK had problems on that scale, and that somehow makes us/our Government worse than anyone else, or to make out that no other country had any comparable problems.

 

[kristiang85]

Apparently the government have said the vote tonight is now *not* a confidence vote, given the size of the rebellion.

But some MPs still unsure.

It's... Extraordinary.

 

[najaB]

But what is not reasonable (unless you have detailed comparable knowledge of lots of other countries on which to base your assumptions) is to presume that only the UK had problems on that scale, and that somehow makes us/our Government worse than anyone else, or to make out that no other country had any comparable problems.

Again, I don't care where we stand in the corruption rankings.

"I don't beat my wife as badly as Bob beats his." doesn't work. Neither does "Other governments were more corrupt".

 

[kristiang85]

Apparently the Tory chief whip has resigned...

 

[birchesgreen]

Again, I don't care where we stand in the corruption rankings.

"I don't beat my wife as badly as Bob beats his." doesn't work. Neither does "Other governments were more corrupt".

Indeed, plus corruption in Lower Farawayland doesn't affect us directly unlike here.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Apparently the Tory chief whip has resigned...

Morton was useless at transport how on earth she had the credentials to be a chief whip was beyond me

 

[kristiang85]

Result: 230 ayes, 326 noes. So the government wins that.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Again, I don't care where we stand in the corruption rankings.

"I don't beat my wife as badly as Bob beats his." doesn't work. Neither does "Other governments were more corrupt".

Hmmm, I suspect this is verging onto arguing about nothing, since I wouldn't disagree with any of that. The reason I quibbled your earlier post was that you wrote something that looked like a attempt to compare the UK with other countries in order to make out that we did worse economically than other countries because of things like track and trace - and that seems to me is something that it isn't legitimate to do unless you have detailed knowledge of other countries. I suspect at this point, we should leave this argument

 

[kristiang85]

"Extraordinary stuff happening here during the vote on fracking which is apparently “not a confidence vote”. I’ve just witnessed one Tory member in tears being manhandled into the lobby to vote against our motion to continue the ban on fracking @BBCNewsnight @PaulBrandITV"

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

"Extraordinary stuff happening here during the vote on fracking which is apparently “not a confidence vote”. I’ve just witnessed one Tory member in tears being manhandled into the lobby to vote against our motion to continue the ban on fracking @BBCNewsnight @PaulBrandITV"

Surely thats criminal behaviour if true shame no one will video it but probably banned

 

[kristiang85]

Surely thats criminal behaviour if true shame no one will video it but probably banned

Yes I think cameras are banned in voting lobbies, but I could be wrong. But indeed it needs investigating urgently.

Apparently Rees Mogg was near fisticuffs with someone Again, unverified as of now.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Accidentally sending a Government email from a personal email account hardly seems like a resigning matter

But doing it deliberately gives a convenient reason to - for once - appear principled

Apparently the Tory chief whip has resigned...

Wonder if Truss will appoint the godfather of her children - sorry, the current deputy chief whip - to replace her

EDIT - perhaps not, seems he’s resigned too

 

[birchesgreen]

Apparently Rees Mogg was near fisticuffs with someone Again, unverified as of now.

What a shame it would be if someone punched him out.

 

[kristiang85]

Bryant has photos apparently and wants an investigation.

And Sky are saying Truss didn't vote. That must be wrong?!

Edit: Indeed, Truss was an abstention. Eh?!

 

[SuspectUsual]

What a shame it would be if someone punched him out.

Whittaker has form for stuff like that

 

[dosxuk]

Sounds like the no lobby was complete carnage, with MPs unable to get a clear answer from anyone if they would get the sack for voting the wrong way, people being forced to go through the lobby against their will and the entire party arguing with each other. Even at the height of May's government issues where she couldn't win a vote things never got as bad as they seem to have done tonight.

Sounds like the Whips have lost confidence in the government themselves, being undermined at the last moment after spending all day saying this was a confidence vote. Whittaker is quoted as being "f****** furious" at what has happened.

 

[SuspectUsual]

It almost makes one pine for the strong and stable government of Boris Johnson

Actually, no it doesn’t.

 

[kristiang85]

Whittaker is quoted as being "f****** furious" at what has happened.

He followed that "**** This, I don't care anymore". And has resigned too.

Again, multiple reports on all this but no confirmation.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Yes I think cameras are banned in voting lobbies, but I could be wrong. But indeed it needs investigating urgently.

Apparently Rees Mogg was near fisticuffs with someone Again, unverified as of now.

Chris Bryant spoke in the house after the vote and asks the deputy speaker to investigate it saying he saw three Tory MPs being manhandled . Apparently no bullying or harassment is allowed in the division lobby's.

Edit: as reported on C4 news 1944ish

 

[dosxuk]

He followed that "**** This, I don't care anymore". And has resigned too.

Again, multiple reports on all this but no confirmation.

Is there actually enough of a functioning government right now to handle the resignations?

 

[nw1]

Result: 230 ayes, 326 noes. So the government wins that.

There goes any claim that most Tory MPs (well, 326 of them anyway) care about the environment. Or at least, not enough to dare to vote against the leadership.

Some interesting figures abstaining though. Truss herself, oddly. Kwarteng. Patel. May. And Boris.

 

[dosxuk]

https://votes.parliament.uk/Votes/Commons/Division/1372#notrecorded

Turns out Truss doesn't support Truss either, abstaining from the (maybe) confidence vote in her!

 

[kristiang85]

Sky saying they've heard Truss fired the Chief Whip in the division lobby, which means she was there for the vote.

 

[nw1]

Oh for heaven's sake, let's have an election. This government is just a joke.