How about a P&R station at Rawcliffe in York ?

[Halifaxlad]

With the news that York city councils plans to double the outer ring road at York into a dual carriageway, that is supposed by about address traffic and removing the need for people to travel into York by car, why don't we build a station at Rawcliffe just North of York which could also act as a rail based park & ride ?

York: £65m outer ring road dual carriageway plan submitted

If approved, the scheme will improve air quality and cut congestion, the city's council boss says.

www.bbc.co.uk

Obviously this would require a brand new line adjacent to the outer ring road, with the Harrogate line nearby it would only take about 5.5km of single track line to connect it to the Scarborough line.



The main benefits would be...

1. Enabling the construction of a new station North of York that could also act as a rail based park and ride.
2. Doubling or even tripling the potential services at Haxby which should encourage more people to travel by train.
3. Remove conflict between the ECML and the Harrogate line and the need to create a third line adjacent to the ECML between York station and Poppleton which would be about 2.7km.

So essentially it would only be about 2.8km longer, but with less disruption to the ECML except for the fact that the ECML will need to be crossed, although that will be done anyway if the outer ring road is doubled. It may also remove the need for another platform at York which I believe is to remove the need for Harrogate services to cross other services as it does at the moment to enter platform 8. As then Harrogate services could also use the Scarborough platforms, if any more platforms are needed then the disused bay could be brought back into use.

 

[30907]

With the news that York city councils plans to double the outer ring road at York into a dual carriageway, ....removing the need for people to travel into York by car,

...which is not mentioned in the report you link, for obvious reasons.

why don't we build a station at Rawcliffe just North of York which could also act as a rail based park & ride ?
Obviously this would require a brand new line adjacent to the outer ring road, with the Harrogate line nearby it would only take about 5.5km of single track line to connect it to the Scarborough line.

View attachment 122114

The main benefits would be...

1. Enabling the construction of a new station North of York that could also act as a rail based park and ride.

So switching traffic from bus (which goes nearer the city centre) to rail

1. Doubling or even tripling the potential services at Haxby which should encourage more people to travel by train.

Haxby is well north of your proposed route, so no.

1. Remove conflict between the ECML and the Harrogate line and the need to create a third line adjacent to the ECML between York station and Poppleton which would be about 2.7km.

Increasing journey time from the Harrogate line by several minutes.

PS You'd need to double that silly single track bit by the Ouse bridge, but that's no bad idea!

 

[Halifaxlad]

.which is not mentioned in the report you link, for obvious reasons.

Don't know what you by 'for obvious reasons' when I created this thread I found an article (not the exact one I read earlier) for general reference.

Haxby is well north of your proposed route, so no.

My bad, perhaps then it would be better located closer to York ?

 

[dodecahedron67]

My bad, perhaps then it would be better located closer to York ?

Not sure how you’ll move an entire village but even glossing over that, there aren’t the paths to or capacity in Platforms 2, 3, 4 and 5 at York, which are the only platforms the Scarborough line can access. You’d lose the use of P8/10/11 which are the usual terminating points for the Harrogate trains, and bear in mind they currently have near 30min layovers so occupy 2 platforms for a whole hour essentially

 

[dciuk]

Not sure how you’ll move an entire village but even glossing over that, there aren’t the paths to or capacity in Platforms 2, 3, 4 and 5 at York, which are the only platforms the Scarborough line can access. You’d lose the use of P8/10/11 which are the usual terminating points for the Harrogate trains, and bear in mind they currently have near 30min layovers so occupy 2 platforms for a whole hour essentially

In that almost 30 minute layover could they make a return trip (or possibly 2 return trips) to the suggested park and ride station?

 

[Halifaxlad]

Don't know why I thought Haxby w

Not sure how you’ll move an entire village but even glossing over that, there aren’t the paths to or capacity in Platforms 2, 3, 4 and 5 at York, which are the only platforms the Scarborough line can access. You’d lose the use of P8/10/11 which are the usual terminating points for the Harrogate trains, and bear in mind they currently have near 30min layovers so occupy 2 platforms for a whole hour essentially

I was refering to the station, forget I even said it. I don't know why I thought the proposed Haxby station was much closer to York than it is.

I have previously thought about another station around that area thou. Haxby still could be served by additional services if an additional turnback platform was constructed.

I don't see why you would need to use P3/4/5, as it stands at the moment only one platform is used for terminating services from Harrogate and as I've already mentioned the disused bay opposite P2 could be brought back to use, if need be you could also create another stabling siding through what is currently the car park which did also used to be another 2 bay platforms at one stage.

 

[zwk500]

Obviously this would require a brand new line adjacent to the outer ring road, with the Harrogate line nearby it would only take about 5.5km of single track line to connect it to the Scarborough line.

For a lot less money, you could build a P&R site at Upper Poppleton and build a new station on the Scarborough line with a P&R at Clifton Moor that would also serve New Earswick. Although fitting the extra station stop into the Scarborough services might require some general Linespeed improvements.

However, it should be borne in mind that P&R buses are much more popular in York than the trains would be, because they can run far more often and can divert very easily whilst dropping people right in the heart of the city centre, rather than kicking them off outside the walls. It's not a long walk, but you do have to cross a number of busy roads to get to the centre itself.

I don't see why you would need to use P3/4/5, as it stands at the moment only one platform is used for terminating services from Harrogate and as I've already mentioned the disused bay opposite P2 could be brought back to use, if need be you could also create another stabling siding through what is currently the car park which did also used to be another 2 bay platforms at one stage.

Your proposed line can't access Platform 8, and bringing the Examination siding into use will be awkward because of the current access road/car park on that side and greater protection of the running lines required. Adding an extra line beyond the existing siding will be even more painful due to the limited lengths available before the bridge.

 

[skyhigh]

as it stands at the moment only one platform is used for terminating services from Harrogate

As it stands 2 platforms at York are used for the Harrogate terminators for alternate trains (normally 8 and 11).

 

[Halifaxlad]

As it stands 2 platforms at York are used for the Harrogate terminators for alternate trains (normally 8 and 11).

My apologizes I forgot York to Harrogate has become half-hourly.

Your proposed line can't access Platform 8, and bringing the Examination siding into use will be awkward because of the current access road/car park on that side and greater protection of the running lines required. Adding an extra line beyond the existing siding will be even more painful due to the limited lengths available before the bridge.

I think the car park and its access is being canned as part of the York station gateway development which will see the area in front of the York tap pedestrianized. Even if the car park remain it would still be possible to build the platform out towards the siding, since the siding is slewed over to sit over space that used to be occupied by two tracks. If necessary it may be possible to slew the siding over further. Since the longest thing that seems to use it is a class 68 we should easily be able create another siding without too much difficulty.

As for cost

 

[yoyothehobo]

Wow, that would need some earthworks and bridges to complete! Getting up and over the ECML, bridge over the Ouse and the A19 on ground which can best be described as "wet". New embankments or methods to get the station at Rawcliffe then another bridge over the ring road and more embankments into a junction on the York - Scarborough line.

Not to mention there is already a P+R bus service at Rawcliffe that would probably beat this timewise.

Small tangible benefits.
High Cost.

Whats not to like?

 

[Halifaxlad]

Not to mention there is already a P+R bus service at Rawcliffe that would probably beat this timewise.

Small tangible benefits.
High Cost.

Whats not to like?

Yes what's not to like about segregating a half hourly service from the East Coast Mainline and freeing up platforms upon the West Side of York station.

My proposal is basically a flyover with a single platform station at Rawcliffe.

 

[yoyothehobo]

But it adds probably around 10 minutes to the journey time from Harrogate to York to get people to a bit of York they dont want to get to. There is already an adequately served park and ride for a bus at Rawcliffe, so what is the need for a less frequent Park and Ride?

Also the single line sections on the Harrogate line are great at building delays, so adding another single line section in seems tantamount to disaster and also messing up timings on the Scarborough line.

The flyover would have to have a low speed turnout from Poppleton then quickly gain a lot of elevation to cross the ECML and river Ouse. Stay high to cross the A19, put a station on an embankment on the far side of the ring road making it unattractive to people in Rawcliffe. Either stay high or drop elevation and rise again to cross the ring road near Wiggington then have a steep turn and descent to join the Scarborough line.

As opposed to making 2 platforms adjacent to one another where platform 8 is currently (where there is only 1 line in the bay platform, there is space for 2 with relatively minor works) and constructing the 3rd line adjacent to the ECML lines.

 

[zwk500]

I think the car park and its access is being canned as part of the York station gateway development which will see the area in front of the York tap pedestrianized. Even if the car park remain it would still be possible to build the platform out towards the siding, since the siding is slewed over to sit over space that used to be occupied by two tracks. If necessary it may be possible to slew the siding over further. Since the longest thing that seems to use it is a class 68 we should easily be able create another siding without too much difficulty.

It's possible, but it's not as simple as you make it sound and therefore it costs money. Even if it was as simple as you think, it'd cost multiple millions

As for cost

It is not an irrelevant factor, please expand this point.

Yes what's not to like about segregating a half hourly service from the East Coast Mainline and freeing up platforms upon the West Side of York station.

You can achieve this with NR's Proposed 3- or 4-tracking to Skelton Jn without the need for a flyover

My proposal is basically a flyover with a single platform station at Rawcliffe.

Your proposal is vastly expensive (your alignment will be 70%+ concrete elevated viaduct) and involves Squeezing the Ouse Bridge single lead whilst at the same time either extending Harrogate travel times or requiring additional stock, drivers and capacity on the harrogate branch to terminate the trains.

 

[Bald Rick]

A brilliant project - several hundred million pounds spent, and additional operating cost ad infinitum, to extend the journey time of all Harrogate branch passengers by about 7 minutes, and gain no custom from the Park and Ride (as everyone would use the quicker and much more frequent bus).

Spend lots of money to lose money. Excellent!

 

[Halifaxlad]

It's possible, but it's not as simple as you make it sound and therefore it costs money. Even if it was as simple as you think, it'd cost multiple millions

I don't think anyone is making its not going to cost anything I don't think any new railway would.

It is not an irrelevant factor, please expand this point.

I don't know how you have interpreted this as somehow saying it is 'irrelevant' those words were something I started to write but accidentally forgot to delete.

You can achieve this with NR's Proposed 3- or 4-tracking to Skelton Jn without the need for a flyover

But half hourly Harrogate services will still have to cross HS2 and NPR services as its proposed to use the two new Western platforms for those services.

to extend the journey time of all Harrogate branch passengers by about 7 minutes,

So additional 2.5 miles will extend journey times by 7 minutes ?

Whilst its never ideal extending services I think we should be looking at the wider picture, neither can I see a slightly longer journey time making that much of a difference anyway.

 

[Bald Rick]

So additional 2.5 miles will extend journey times by 7 minutes ?

My apologies. It should be 9 minutes.

it’s an extra 3.6miles for the train (not 2.5). Slow speed junctions both ends, with a very long slow speed curve where it joins the Scarborough line. Much slower entry and exit into York from the Scarborough direction (15mph for 1/4 mile) than from the Skelton direction (30mph, except only for the approach to platform 7 which is 15 for the last bit). That will easily take 7 minutes non stop on clear signals. Add in 2 minutes for the station stop at the new station, which is right in the middle of what would be the highest achievable speed section.

 

[zwk500]

I don't think anyone is making its not going to cost anything I don't think any new railway would.

I don't know how you have interpreted this as somehow saying it is 'irrelevant' those words were something I started to write but accidentally forgot to delete.

Your posts made it sound like you thought funding wouldn't be a problem. Apologies if I've misinterpreted a mispost.

But half hourly Harrogate services will still have to cross HS2 and NPR services as its proposed to use the two new Western platforms for those services.

With a segregated slow track for Harrogate services this isn't that serious a constraint. Especially with the remodelling that would accompany the new platforms improving the overlap restrictions, junction capacity and margins at the north end of York.

Whilst its never ideal extending services I think we should be looking at the wider picture, neither can I see a slightly longer journey time making that much of a difference anyway.

A journey time of nearly 10 minutes will make a significant difference. People will drive to the Park & Rides and use the bus into town.