CIV protection with a Euro High Saver Return

[bspahh]

I'm travelling by Eurostar on Saturday, and returning the following Saturday. I just went to Ely ticket office and asked for a ticket with CIV protection, using a Network railcard.

They said that I needed a £43.15 Euro Standard Return, and not a £31.15 Euro High Saver Return, to get the CIV protection.

At brfares.com for the Euro High Saver Return it says:
Validity
Outward: ONE DAY CIV
Return: TWO MONTHS CIV
Restrictions
Y4 TL&GN - OFF PEAK

The Y4 validity only has restrictions from Monday to Friday.

The ticket office said that they would sell me the cheaper ticket, but could not guarantee that I would get the CIV protection.

It looks to me that either the ticket office or brfares.com is wrong. Does anyone have any views on which one it is?

 

[Watershed]

I'm travelling by Eurostar on Saturday, and returning the following Saturday. I just went to Ely ticket office and asked for a ticket with CIV protection, using a Network railcard.

They said that I needed a £43.15 Euro Standard Return, and not a £31.15 Euro High Saver Return, to get the CIV protection.

At brfares.com for the Euro High Saver Return it says:
Validity
Outward: ONE DAY CIV
Return: TWO MONTHS CIV
Restrictions
Y4 TL&GN - OFF PEAK

The Y4 validity only has restrictions from Monday to Friday.

The ticket office said that they would sell me the cheaper ticket, but could not guarantee that I would get the CIV protection.

It looks to me that either the ticket office or brfares.com is wrong. Does anyone have any views on which one it is?

Neither give you any CIV protection - CIV protection applies only where you hold a through ticket. Now that Eurostar through fares have been abolished, the only way to obtain a through ticket is to buy an Interrail pass.

That being said, even if you do not have strict legal protection, Eurostar are still likely to accommodate you on their next train if they have seats available. Where it would come to the crunch would be if you were travelling on the last Eurostar of the day - as neither Eurostar nor GTR would be likely to be liable for any resultant overnight accommodation expenses. That would be a matter for your travel insurance (it is usually quite inexpensive to get a policy with a zero/low excess and which covers such eventualities).

And there can still be advantages to buying tickets to London International CIV - for example, it can be cheaper than buying a normal ticket to London. In this particular case it costs the same as the equivalent non-CIV fare, but you may as well buy the CIV fare for the extra month's validity on the return portion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Neither give you any CIV protection - CIV protection applies only where you hold a through ticket.

This isn't correct, and CIV protection is the entire purpose of the existence of these fares (plus they're often cheaper, but not always).

For CIV purposes a ticket to London International (CIV) plus a E* ticket classes as a through ticket.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jun 2022 ==

That being said, even if you do not have strict legal protection, Eurostar are still likely to accommodate you on their next train if they have seats available. Where it would come to the crunch would be if you were travelling on the last Eurostar of the day - as neither Eurostar nor GTR would be likely to be liable for any resultant overnight accommodation expenses. That would be a matter for your travel insurance (it is usually quite inexpensive to get a policy with a zero/low excess and which covers such eventualities).

This applies even if you're on a ticket to London Terminals. E* is generally accommodative, UK TOCs typically less so.

It's sensible to have insurance anyway for medical reasons (there may be son-of-EHIC, but it won't do medical repatriation) so if you have this isn't something you really need to worry too much about.

 

[Watershed]

This isn't correct, and CIV protection is the entire purpose of the existence of these fares (plus they're often cheaper, but not always).

No, it is. See the Seat 61 guide on this issue:

With a through ticket the international conditions of carriage (CIV) give you a cast-iron legal entitlement to travel on by later trains if a delay means a missed connection, so tight connections aren't necessarily a problem. But these days you often get separate tickets for each train and that protection only legally applies to connections within each ticket, not between tickets. Fortunately, rail staff will often help you out anyway, and connections between different operators on separate tickets may be covered by RailTeam/HOTNAT or the Agreement for Journey Continuation as explained below. Be aware of these arrangements, they usually mean you can continue by a later train if the worst happens and you miss a connection, even with train-specific cheap tickets.

For CIV purposes a ticket to London International (CIV) plus a E* ticket classes as a through ticket.

As there is nothing in either the CIV or Eurostar's Conditions of Carriage stating that this is the case, I fail to see the basis on which you make this claim. I would love for it to be true, but it just isn't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As there is nothing in either the CIV or Eurostar's Conditions of Carriage stating that this is the case, I fail to see the basis on which you make this claim. I would love for it to be true, but it just isn't.

It is the whole point of those tickets. They serve no other purpose otherwise (bar being cheaper in a small number of cases).

They effectively extend the Eurostar ticket, in the same manner as a Travelcard plus a Boundary Zone extension effectively count as one ticket.

 

[Watershed]

It is the whole point of those tickets. They serve no other purpose otherwise (bar being cheaper in a small number of cases).

They effectively extend the Eurostar ticket, in the same manner as a Travelcard plus a Boundary Zone extension effectively count as one ticket.

There are plenty of pointless fares out there. That the fare exists does not guarantee legal protection.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are plenty of pointless fares out there. That the fare exists does not guarantee legal protection.

In your opinion.

It might be a bit lost in history, but the purpose of these is as I stated. They wouldn't exist otherwise.

OTOH I don't think CIV protection includes overnight accommodation (does it?) - just accommodation on the next train which has seats available if compulsory reservation. So travel insurance is still prudent, and if you have that and a credit card (both being travel essentials to get out of trouble) it simply isn't worth worrying about because if you miss the connection and Eurostar/the TOC won't budge you can buy another ticket and claim it back (give or take a typically smallish excess, very often £50). Obviously when planning your journey you need to leave the appropriate time gap as your policy states.

 

[Watershed]

In your opinion.

It might be a bit lost in history, but the purpose of these is as I stated. They wouldn't exist otherwise.

OTOH I don't think CIV protection includes overnight accommodation (does it?) - just accommodation on the next train which has seats available if compulsory reservation. So travel insurance is still prudent, and if you have that and a credit card (both being travel essentials to get out of trouble) it simply isn't worth worrying about because if you miss the connection and Eurostar/the TOC won't budge you can buy another ticket and claim it back (give or take a typically smallish excess, very often £50).

CIV protection does include the cost of overnight accommodation - see Article 32(1):

The carrier shall be liable to the passenger for loss or damage resulting from the fact that, by reason of cancellation, the late running of a train or a missed connection, his journey cannot be continued the same day, or that a continuation of the journey the same day could not reasonably be required because of given circumstances. The damages shall comprise the reasonable costs of accommodation as well as the reasonable costs occasioned by having to notify persons expecting the passenger.

I have cited the conclusion of the Man in Seat 61, whom I think we can all accept is an expert on European rail ticketing. So it is not my opinion, but his.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have cited the conclusion of the Man in Seat 61, whom I think we can all accept is an expert on European rail ticketing. So it is not my opinion, but his.

He's referring to e.g. a Eurostar and TGV ticket separately, not to these which aren't separate tickets but add-ons that can't be purchased alone. As I said they are like Boundary Zone tickets which are add-ons, not separate tickets.

They'd not exist otherwise, they don't really serve another purpose.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jun 2022 ==

Here's a reference confirming my view:

https://www.raileurope.com/en-gb/CIV-train-tickets

CIV protection​

CIV is a set of rules shared by European rail operators to protect international journeys by train. You can add it to UK train tickets by selecting a CIV ticket from search results.


These special fares, that are are only valid with proof of an onward Eurostar ticket, mean that the domestic UK leg of your journey will be protected under international conditions of carriage.


This means that if your UK train is delayed you'll be permitted to travel on the next available Eurostar. The tickets also include travel on the London Underground (if necessary) to/from London St Pancras International.


CIV fares are priced differently to normal tickets, and are only valid with proof of an onward Eurostar ticket.


CIV protection is not a substitute for travel insurance.


Prices are usually slightly more expensive than non-CIV tickets for the same route, though they can sometimes be cheaper, especially during peak times.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Jun 2022 ==

Also:

Railfuture | CIV tickets

Railfuture

www.railfuture.org.uk

with quite a lot more detail.

 

[ainsworth74]

No, it is. See the Seat 61 guide on this issue:

No he doesn't say that:

If your journey starts at a UK station outside London...​

...

Option 2, buy a separate UK train ticket to London. There are special fares from most stations in Britain to a destination called 'London International CIV' designed to be used with Eurostar tickets, which you can buy online following the instructions here. Stations can sell these tickets, though staff aren't always familiar with them. These fares have few or no time restrictions, so you can travel in the Monday-Friday peaks at an affordable fare, they also ensure that international conditions of carriage (the CIV) apply to your whole journey, so if the UK train is late & you miss your Eurostar or vice versa you'll be rebooked on a later train at no charge.

(Italics added)

And:

Option 3: Buy a separate ticket...​

...

...or a special ticket to London International CIV.​

• Advantage 2: You're covered by the International Conditions of Carriage (CIV = Convention Internationale pour le transport des Voyageurs), rather than the normal domestic National Rail Conditions of Carriage, for your whole journey. So if the British train is late and you miss your Eurostar, the CIV conditions of carriage oblige Eurostar to put you on the next available Eurostar without additional charge, even if your ticket is a no-refunds no-changes one. Similarly, if your return Eurostar arrives late into London and you miss your onward connection, the UK train operator is obliged to let you take the next available train, even if you have a train-specific Advance ticket. I'm glad to say that Eurostar normally honour this in the event of a delayed UK connection even if you only have a regular UK ticket, but it's good to have the actual legal entitlement.

Does anyone have any views on which one it is?

Both tickets offer CIV protection, not sure why Ely advised you as they did.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

I vaguely remember that you're supposed to have two hours between trains to get the CIV protection. But the old Deutsche Bahn through fares to/from London never bothered with that at Brussels. Far from it!

 

[bspahh]

Thanks all.

I checked back at the Ely ticket office. They called a different supervisor, who said that the off peak Euro High Saver Return would be fine. They refunded the old tickets and I got the cheaper ones instead.

 

[ainsworth74]

Thanks all.

I checked back at the Ely ticket office. They called a different supervisor, who said that the off peak Euro High Saver Return would be fine. They refunded the old tickets and I got the cheaper ones instead.

Good stuff. It's obviously better that such things are gotten right the first time but all's well that ends well

 

[bspahh]

This article has a lot of details about the various schemes for handling missed connections for train journeys in Europe.

Booking and Using Tickets for European journeys involving more than one Train | ShowMeTheJourney

Insights into what to look out for when purchasing tickets for more complicated European train journeys which involve connecting between trains

showmethejourney.com

 

[janecr]

I've got a related question - can you buy these tickets to travel the day before the Eurostar departure from London? I'm planning to stay in London the night before but still want to get this ticket as it allows me to travel at peak time on the way back. BRFARES says Outward Validity: ONE DAY CIV (1 day).

 

[CyrusWuff]

I've got a related question - can you buy these tickets to travel the day before the Eurostar departure from London? I'm planning to stay in London the night before but still want to get this ticket as it allows me to travel at peak time on the way back. BRFARES says Outward Validity: ONE DAY CIV (1 day).

It's not mentioned on NRE or Eurostar's website, but Knowledgebase (an internal industry site) says that tickets to/from London International can be dated the day before departing the UK and/or the day after arriving into the UK.

So, for example, if you were booked to leave on 20th October and return on 25th October, the outward ticket could be dated for the 19th or 20th and the return for the 25th or 26th.

 

[janecr]

It's not mentioned on NRE or Eurostar's website, but Knowledgebase (an internal industry site) says that tickets to/from London International can be dated the day before departing the UK and/or the day after arriving into the UK.

So, for example, if you were booked to leave on 20th October and return on 25th October, the outward ticket could be dated for the 19th or 20th and the return for the 25th or 26th.

Many thanks!

 

[bspahh]

It's not mentioned on NRE or Eurostar's website, but Knowledgebase (an internal industry site) says that tickets to/from London International can be dated the day before departing the UK and/or the day after arriving into the UK.

So, for example, if you were booked to leave on 20th October and return on 25th October, the outward ticket could be dated for the 19th or 20th and the return for the 25th or 26th.

I have a Euro High Saver Return (CIV) which had a single date for the outward journey, but the return it is valid for 2 months.

 

[P Binnersley]

Looking at some recent tickets (Print at home & credit card sized paper ticket) they both state "Issued subject to CIV and the National Rail Conditions of Travel".

Does this mean that any journey to London for a Eurostar connection has CIV protection?

 

[paul1609]

On the sailrail through tickets to Ireland it speciifies CIV in the destination field eg in my case Appledore (Kent) to Galway CIV

 

[island]

Looking at some recent tickets (Print at home & credit card sized paper ticket) they both state "Issued subject to CIV and the National Rail Conditions of Travel".

Does this mean that any journey to London for a Eurostar connection has CIV protection?

I wouldn't count on it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Oct 2022 ==

On the sailrail through tickets to Ireland it speciifies CIV in the destination field eg in my case Appledore (Kent) to Galway CIV

Any international rail ticket will (or at any rate should). An Iarnród Éireann ticket to Newry would also have this.

(I think the erstwhile London to Calais tickets didn't because the journey didn't include any train travel at the other end.)

 

[XAM2175]

Looking at some recent tickets (Print at home & credit card sized paper ticket) they both state "Issued subject to CIV and the National Rail Conditions of Travel".

Does this mean that any journey to London for a Eurostar connection has CIV protection?

No, it's just there because those formats could be used to issue a CIV-protected ticket.

 

[BigCj34]

Given the CIV ticket is quite hard to find, and Eurostar are generally pragmatic about allowing those arriving into London late to use a a later train, has anyone successfully been able to board a later train than their UK TOC advance ticket allowed on their return into the UK, due to the Eurostar arriving late? Or has this been a mixed bag?

I was actually not allowed to board an earlier train with Greater Anglia, due to arriving earlier on the Eurostar that day due to Covid restrictions in France, but the UK had not locked down yet.

 

[Trainbike46]

Given the CIV ticket is quite hard to find, and Eurostar are generally pragmatic about allowing those arriving into London late to use a a later train, has anyone successfully been able to board a later train than their UK TOC advance ticket allowed on their return into the UK, due to the Eurostar arriving late? Or has this been a mixed bag?

I was actually not allowed to board an earlier train with Greater Anglia, due to arriving earlier on the Eurostar that day due to Covid restrictions in France, but the UK had not locked down yet.

I once arrived very late on a eurostar - late enough to miss the last connection to merseyside on avanti. I opted to stay over at friends, and used my (off peak day single) ticket to liverpool the next day, when it wasn't technically valid anymore. I was given a HOTNAT form by the eurostar staff confirming the delay. The staff at Euston accepted my ticket without question (they seemed more interested in checking my railcard than in checking the ticket), and Merseyrail accepted my ticket without question too. at no point was I asked about the date on my ticket, and I didn't have to show the HOTNAT form at all

However, this all was complicated because the eurostar delay had pushed me onto a strike day, as I understand most staff were more flexible with ticket rules during and around the strike, due to the disruption the strikes were causing. I was lucky that avanti and merseyrail weren't really affected, but eurostar ended up getting taxis for a lot of people who couldn't get home anymore due to the delay followed by a strike day.

 

[30907]

Given the CIV ticket is quite hard to find, and Eurostar are generally pragmatic about allowing those arriving into London late to use a a later train, has anyone successfully been able to board a later train than their UK TOC advance ticket allowed on their return into the UK, due to the Eurostar arriving late? Or has this been a mixed bag?

ATOC (or whoever it was then) several years ago confirmed that they would treat ES delays just like any other - so they should always allow travel by the next available train of the same TOC.

 

[Haywain]

ATOC (or whoever it was then) several years ago confirmed that they would treat ES delays just like any other - so they should always allow travel by the next available train of the same TOC.

In my experience Eurostar would do the same thing. I can only recall one occasion when they turned a customer away and in that case the customer had failed to allow anything like enough time to make the connection (something silly like 10 minutes from King’s Cross arrival to St Pancras International departure).

 

[BigCj34]

ATOC (or whoever it was then) several years ago confirmed that they would treat ES delays just like any other - so they should always allow travel by the next available train of the same TOC.

Be interesting to see where that was said, or if anyone can post it verbatim if it is an internal industry memo. That at least makes it sound like there is de facto ticket protection for connections, though may not protect you if you are stranded and need a hotel.

Of course an advance ticket means you'll need to allow 38-61 minutes to make the connection (going by the NRTT interchange table), though that might be domestic services and may need to add time for exiting the international terminal. This could mean some waiting around at the next station if you have a smooth exit out of St Pancras and passage across London.