Northern cancellations getting worse

[Jamesrob637]

Mauldeth Road had the 06:53 and 07:12 cancelled today "due to a planned cancellation by the train operator" which isn't good enough really.

 

[BPN2022]

Surely it’s time they put a reliable reduced service out there? These planned ad hoc cancellations which alter daily, really are crap for the passenger.

What on earth was going on at Horwich Parkway on Saturday also? Was there really no trains after the football for that long? - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...22-10-15/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

Very damaging for the company. Passengers are going to get used to Saturdays without train services at this rate.

 

[danny127]

They are catastrophically bad and have been since the beginning of time. The service isn't improving and never will. I moved house to an area which is served by them at the start of the year. Thanks to Northern I have had to leave a great job which I was really happy with, and take one closer to home because relocating again isn't a reasonable option. I can't remember the last day that either my train to work or the soonest after my shift ended wasn't cancelled.

The service is atrocious. I can't even put into words how bad it is. I think I counted their services from when I left work the other day and only about 60 percent of them were running.

And the worst part about it? They don't give a damn.

 

[43066]

Felt for the Northern driver given an absolute beasting by unhappy passengers at Leeds on Friday. 1233 train to Castleford seemed to fail in the platform when fully loaded. All passengers turfed off to await the 1333.......... which simply disappeared. (Looking at RTT later it apparently ran at 14:27!) meaning everyone was looking for the next train.

that left 3 trains loads of passengers trying to find out where the 1358 was. The poor guy stepped off the Nottingham terminator and was mobbed by frustrated people!

There was no communication and no staff around to help or guide anyone so as you can imagine tempers were getting heated!

There are some occasions (and this is one of them) where it’s good to wear your own coat, non TOC rucksack, walk back into the train and exit via a passenger door.

Failing that, “your train is just behind this one” and scarper usually works a treat .

 

[DarloRich]

carper usually works a treat

he wasn't given the chance. Opened door and was mobbed. Rarely have i seen punters with less gruntle.

 

[td97]

They are catastrophically bad and have been since the beginning of time.

It very much depends on which depot your service is crewed from. In the North West, Manchester Victoria, Blackburn and Blackpool crewed services seem ok.
Wigan, Barrow, Manchester Piccadilly, Liverpool depots all struggle.

The service isn't improving and never will.

Apparently the "ongoing challenges rostering our driver colleagues" issue has now been overcome which should see a reduction in cancellations from an as-yet unannounced future date.

The service is atrocious. I can't even put into words how bad it is. I think I counted their services from when I left work the other day and only about 60 percent of them were running.

Comparatively, Northern are doing ok. The other TOCs to lose driver rest-day working are

• CrossCountry - 50% reduction on inter city routes.
• Avanti - 64% reduction (4tph instead of 11tph)
• TPE - 4tph instead of 6tph on TP North route (ad-hoc cancellations deliver more like 3tph); 31tpd instead of 40tpd on WCML route; generally a 50% reduction on Hope Valley. Easily a 50+% reduction overall.
• Northern - no emergency timetable. Perhaps a 15% reduction in timetabled services?

I travel a regular 2-4 days per week with Northern (North West region). My delay repays with Northern over summer have been (with no significant annual leave periods).
June - 3
July - 2
August - 1
September - 1
My experience does not tally with yours.

To update the above, September remained as 1 and October to date is 1.

 

[43066]

he wasn't given the chance. Opened door and was mobbed. Rarely have i seen punters with less gruntle.

Back into the cab, call the Bobby for a line block, out the other side .

Joking aside, I also feel for him. You can usually avoid it as a driver. You’re also the last person who will have the answers to their questions.

 

[Peterthegreat]

It very much depends on which depot your service is crewed from. In the North West, Manchester Victoria, Blackburn and Blackpool crewed services seem ok.
Wigan, Barrow, Manchester Piccadilly, Liverpool depots all struggle.

Apparently the "ongoing challenges rostering our driver colleagues" issue has now been overcome which should see a reduction in cancellations from an as-yet unannounced future date.

Comparatively, Northern are doing ok. The other TOCs to lose driver rest-day working are

• CrossCountry - 50% reduction on inter city routes.
• Avanti - 64% reduction (4tph instead of 11tph)
• TPE - 4tph instead of 6tph on TP North route (ad-hoc cancellations deliver more like 3tph); 31tpd instead of 40tpd on WCML route; generally a 50% reduction on Hope Valley. Easily a 50+% reduction overall.
• Northern - no emergency timetable. Perhaps a 15% reduction in timetabled services?

To update the above, September remained as 1 and October to date is 1.

On the Eastern side for Northern we have (and probably others)
No trains Doncaster to Scunthorpe
No trains Sheffield to York
No trains Sheffield to Cleethorpes via Brigg
No trains Huddersfield to Castleford
67% reduction in Doncaster to Sheffield local trains
15% reduction in Sheffield to Leeds via Moorthorpe
Large reduction in Sheffield to Gainsborough.

Doing OK? A disgrace.

 

[Watershed]

No trains Doncaster to Scunthorpe
No trains Sheffield to York
No trains Sheffield to Cleethorpes via Brigg
No trains Huddersfield to Castleford

All of these are due to be addressed in the December timetable change, to varying degrees. Whether that actually materialises is another matter, but clearly the intention is there to resume these services.

67% reduction in Doncaster to Sheffield local trains

I'm probably most concerned about this one, as there seems to be no indication of things improving here in December.

Large reduction in Sheffield to Gainsborough.

I'm also a little bit concerned about this one, as there's still just a skeleton service in December. And without it, the Sheffield to Lincoln services have to serve all shacks.

 

[Kite159]

Agreed, half hourly pre covid stoppers between Sheffield & Doncaster, reduced to hourly before reduced further to 2 hour gaps with one diagram missing.

No doubt the trams are popular from Rotherham Central (also might be cheaper as well), considering in some hours there are no Northern trains calling in one direction

 

[td97]

On the Eastern side for Northern we have (and probably others)
No trains Doncaster to Scunthorpe
No trains Sheffield to York
No trains Sheffield to Cleethorpes via Brigg
No trains Huddersfield to Castleford
67% reduction in Doncaster to Sheffield local trains
15% reduction in Sheffield to Leeds via Moorthorpe
Large reduction in Sheffield to Gainsborough.

The North west isn't let off easily

• Manchester Airport - Liverpool withdrawn
• 1tph Blackburn - Rochdale missing
• 1tph Wigan - Liverpool missing
• Warrington BQ - Liverpool withdrawn
• Some Barrow afternoon services withdrawn.

But these all have alternatives with a maximum 30 minute time penalty (except Barrow pm) and this level of reduction is nowhere near as dire as TPE or Avanti. It is a fact that most (i.e. >50%) lines operate at pre-COVID frequency and with increased train lengths. The same is not true of the other TOCs I listed.

Doing OK? A disgrace.

If you don't keep up with the TPE cancellations thread, today TPE ran a 0911 Sheffield to Manchester service, and then nothing until 1611 due to train crew related cancellations. That truly is dismal.

 

[Killingworth]

On the Eastern side for Northern we have (and probably others)
No trains Doncaster to Scunthorpe
No trains Sheffield to York
No trains Sheffield to Cleethorpes via Brigg
No trains Huddersfield to Castleford
67% reduction in Doncaster to Sheffield local trains
15% reduction in Sheffield to Leeds via Moorthorpe
Large reduction in Sheffield to Gainsborough.

Doing OK? A disgrace.

Today the combined efforts of Northern, TPE and EMR should have provided 3 trains an hour between Manchester and Sheffield, potentially up to 14 carriages an hour. Between 9.42 and 11.49 nothing at all until 3 car Northern stopper. Best were a couple of hours when TPE managed 6 and Northern 4.

Even when they're in the timetable they often don't run.

 

[Peterthegreat]

The North west isn't let off easily

• Manchester Airport - Liverpool withdrawn
• 1tph Blackburn - Rochdale missing
• 1tph Wigan - Liverpool missing
• Warrington BQ - Liverpool withdrawn
• Some Barrow afternoon services withdrawn.

But these all have alternatives with a maximum 30 minute time penalty (except Barrow pm) and this level of reduction is nowhere near as dire as TPE or Avanti. It is a fact that most (i.e. >50%) lines operate at pre-COVID frequency and with increased train lengths. The same is not true of the other TOCs I listed.


If you don't keep up with the TPE cancellations thread, today TPE ran a 0911 Sheffield to Manchester service, and then nothing until 1611 due to train crew related cancellations. That truly is dismal.

Using "averages" is not helpful. I haven't kept up with alterations in the North West but here in South Yorkshire services have been slashed usually with no alternatives. The morning peak hour stopping service from Sheffield into Doncaster has gone, the evening peak hour Sheffield to Doncaster has gone. There is no service from Sheffield to Rotherham or Swinton from 07.15 to 09.06 (four trains between having being withdrawn). And this is before ad-hoc cancellations.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Oct 2022 ==

Today the combined efforts of Northern, TPE and EMR should have provided 3 trains an hour between Manchester and Sheffield, potentially up to 14 carriages an hour. Between 9.42 and 11.49 nothing at all until 3 car Northern stopper. Best were a couple of hours when TPE managed 6 and Northern 4.

Even when they're in the timetable they often don't run.

Absolutely. Pre covid there were 5 trains per hour betweem Doncaster and Sheffield. 1 x TPE, 1 x XC, 1 x Northern fast and 2 x Northern stoppers. The XC have all but gone, at least 1 Northern stopper per hour has gone (2 in some hours) and TPE are a law unto themselves. So in some hours the only service is the Northern "fast". And even that is subject to cancellation.

 

[scrapy]

The North west isn't let off easily

• Manchester Airport - Liverpool withdrawn
• 1tph Blackburn - Rochdale missing
• 1tph Wigan - Liverpool missing
• Warrington BQ - Liverpool withdrawn
• Some Barrow afternoon services withdrawn.

Also add
1 in 3 Blackpool to Liverpool withdrawn
1 in 5 Blackburn to Kirkby withdrawn including first Kirkby to Manchester service so earliest Manchester arrival is 09.02.
Some peak Lancaster to Morecambe services withdrawn
Some New Mills to Manchester services withdrawn
Some Preston to Colne services withdrawn
Some Preston to Ormskirk services withdrawn

 

[Ant158]

On Sunday’s of late it appears all they can provide is one unit shuttling back and forth on the Clitheroe to Rochdale Line, leaving a train only every 3 hours where it should be hourly. Though the weekday service does seem to operate without many cancellations.

 

[philthetube]

A bus driver would not be provided with a sat nav and should not be using one unless is is a specific one which takes into account suitability of roads, bridges weight limits etc.

See many low bridges threads, some of which site sat navs as a cause.

My point is to use one which does take those factors into account. Surely that is far better than the example above of passengers being inconvenienced by a driver not having a clue where they are going?

From experience it does not work like that, for example if Blackpool corporation are phoned to provide a short notice bus to run through to Manchester where is the Sat nav going to appear from, these things are expensive and a bus depot is not going to have them kicking about just in case. Bus companies will never pay for them, drivers cannot be expected to and Network rail will not either. A sat nav alone is not enough, there also needs to be a secure fixing point on the bus, which may also only be used a couple of times in the vehicles career. You have a better chance with a coach, some companies provide them.

 

[danny127]

32 scheduled trains St Helens Central to Liverpool today.
16 of them running.
Pathetic.

 

[skyhigh]

32 scheduled trains St Helens Central to Liverpool today.
16 of them running.
Pathetic.

Track defect at Huyton this morning meaning that the line was closed for several hours and then reopened with a 5mph emergency speed restriction.

Not much that could be done given the circumstances, but don't let the facts get in the way of your rant.

 

[danny127]

Yeah I honestly couldn't care less about the 'facts'. I'm pretty sure these issues run deeper than broken track. Commuters should be able to rely on the service but can't.

 

[Matt_pool]

Lots of cancellations (again) on the Liverpool Lime Street - Manchester Oxford Road line today.

That's certainly nothing to do with a track defect. More like a defective train operating company!

They stopped giving reasons for these cancellations on National Rail Live Departures weeks ago!

 

[Geeves]

Just browsing over the various cancellations on the Lime St to Oxford Rd section and I can see from at least 4 or 5 of trains Ive looked at the guard has work on the Chat Moss first which would explain why the second halves of the job were not running, so yes everything to do with the track defect.

Victoria depot is pretty proactive at covering work where as other depots have it tougher. Barrow has two separate links for example with them both only signing Morecambe and Lancaster jointly making work harder to cover, only one link signs the coast for example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah I honestly couldn't care less about the 'facts'. I'm pretty sure these issues run deeper than broken track. Commuters should be able to rely on the service but can't.

Is it just inadequate staffing? Whatever your view on thie politics of COVID, it does seem to be causing more sickness in all industries, which means your base staffing level needs to be higher than before.

 

[AMD]

Apparently the "ongoing challenges rostering our driver colleagues" issue has now been overcome which should see a reduction in cancellations from an as-yet unannounced future date.

Current estimate is w/c 30th October for drivers links to drop into place.

 

[kels430]

Track defect at Huyton this morning meaning that the line was closed for several hours and then reopened with a 5mph emergency speed restriction.

Not much that could be done given the circumstances, but don't let the facts get in the way of your rant.

The problem is these issues would be fine if they were the only issue, a track defect every once in a while would be accepted by passengers. If however they’re facing disruption every day then this track defect won’t be tolerated as much and they’ll just see it as yet another day of poor service.

 

[jfollows]

I'm going to Manchester Airport tomorrow, but this morning I saw that the train I was planning to catch tomorrow had been cancelled today. Well, in due course I read the reason why here (I assume the track defect at Huyton was the cause), but in the interim I had abandoned my plan to go by train and booked a taxi. As kels430 just observed, I thought it was just another cancellation by Northern for whatever reason.

 

[londonmidland]

‘This train has been cancelled because of a short-notice change to the timetable’

I see this excuse everywhere now. Has it essentially replaced ‘A shortage of train crew/train drivers’ excuse?

 

[jfollows]

‘This train has been cancelled because of a short-notice change to the timetable’

I see this excuse everywhere now. Has it essentially replaced ‘A shortage of train crew/train drivers’ excuse?

Isn’t this the 10pm “timetable of the day”, in other words a cover-all excuse for a service which was removed from the timetable the previous day for reasons including shortage of staff?

 

[py_megapixel]

‘This train has been cancelled because of a short-notice change to the timetable’

I see this excuse everywhere now. Has it essentially replaced ‘A shortage of train crew/train drivers’ excuse?

It certainly appears that way. It basically amounts to "This train is not running because we have decided that this train is not running."

I imagine the idea is that if someone tries to claim delay compensation for the appalling service, they can say "Train? What train? It wasn't in the timetable that we were supposed to be running a train then!"

 

[Kite159]

It certainly appears that way. It basically amounts to "This train is not running because we have decided that this train is not running."

I imagine the idea is that if someone tries to claim delay compensation for the appalling service, they can say "Train? What train? It wasn't in the timetable that we were supposed to be running a train then!"

True for Northern, they are using that "Timetable of the day" clause as a 'get out of jail free' card when it comes to paying out for compensation for anybody wanting to travel. Not much cope if you want to use an early train which was running before you went to bed, but disappears around 21:55 so when you wake up it doesn't exist.

No doubt if Northern were still run by Arriva, the likes of Burnham would be shouting all about it from his little soapbox about how the evil private company isn't paying out when they make passengers late etc.

 

[RAPC]

It certainly appears that way. It basically amounts to "This train is not running because we have decided that this train is not running."

I imagine the idea is that if someone tries to claim delay compensation for the appalling service, they can say "Train? What train? It wasn't in the timetable that we were supposed to be running a train then!"

Exactly that. Northern don't count those services as existing from a Delay Repay point of view. Have fallen foul of that a few times now. It's a very poor policy.