Avanti West Coast Class 221 to CrossCountry

[Snow1964]

The Voyagers were terrible when they were new, so I'm not clear on how refurbishment will help. Having some of the shakiest engines on the railway under you seat for a 7 hour journey is a woeful experience compared to an HST. As an enthusiast (which I'm not really) I'm wholly indifferent, but as somebody with a perfectly normal aversion to feeling like I'm being shaken to pieces for hours on end I care a lot.

And what's more accessible about them? The HSTs have all been in for their mods

Serious question, if they were transferred, and expected to do 10-20 more years. Would they need completely new engines. I assume the engines have an effective limit on working hours where major parts need replacing, and eventually substituting a replacement is required.

Then you run into obvious questions is re-use more cost effective than say reusing the bogies under new bodyshells. I do wonder how much better a partial transfer would be to make up the ideal train (but don’t really want to be left with a train that needs partial replacement in a decades time)

My money is still on using mix of 220, 221, 222 reformed into 6 or 7 car trains, leaving existing fleet for the double length busy workings, and reconfigured fleet for the workings needing something longer than a single unit, but where 2 units is wasteful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Serious question, if they were transferred, and expected to do 10-20 more years. Would they need completely new engines.

Why would they need them and the existing XC ones not?

 

[James90012]

I floated an idea in a previous thread, but might as well bring it up again here.

Bearing in mind the cost issue which isn't going to go away, I wondered about bringing in the 221s from Avanti, but ditching/scrapping 2 of the end cars from each of the 220s and reforming those as 17 6-car sets.

Dropping the HSTs too would mean the net increase of 100 vehicles from Avanti would be offset by a reduction in c.86 vehicles, so there would still be an overall net gain, but the real prize is removal of 4-car trains.

 

[RailWonderer]

Of all the speculative ideas on this section of the forum, the idea of the ex-Avanti 221s going to XC should be categorised under the "So utterly obvious, why the hell isn't it nailed on already?" category. The answer sadly is "Because the UK rail industry"...

As a punter who has spent many an unhappy hour rammed into a Voyager with someone's armpit or arse (depending on whether you won the seat lottery that day) in my face, it is absolutely mind bogglingly crazy that this isn't a gimme. Yet instead we are seemingly confronted with pen pushers & accountants sucking air through their teeth, possibly claiming that this isn't "going to be easy guv" like some cheap arsed plumber you hire from down the local. Folk on these forums often wonder why ordinary punters get frustrated at the industry, so imagine the reaction of those on overcrowded XCs if they ever found out in the future that there were perfectly good units going spare but XC couldn't / wouldn't use them.

If these aren't used once they come off lease from Avanti, its beyond a joke.

Many XC services are doubled up these days. All they could do with more units is to replace the few remaining HST diagrams they have left (including the new December ones) and the Nottingham - Cardiff 170.

It is most likely this won’t happen but there is not much they could do. It is also possible there are more voyagers going free than what XC would need to replace a few HSTs and a few 170 diagrams.

 

[RobShipway]

So all of the 221s and 222s will fit at Central Rivers? errrr....

Well, all the XC 220 and 221's and the Avanti 221's are all maintained already at Central Rivers. I believe that there is work that has been done on the class 222's before now at Central Rivers? -

 

[Trainbike46]

Many XC services are doubled up these days. All they could do with more units is to replace the few remaining HST diagrams they have left (including the new December ones) and the Nottingham - Cardiff 170.

It is most likely this won’t happen but there is not much they could do. It is also possible there are more voyagers going free than what XC would need to replace a few HSTs and a few 170 diagrams.

That's making the rather large assumption that the XC timetable will not introduce any extra services moving towards pre-covid routes and frequencies. Given they are regularly reported as very full, and that they serve leisure routes that have recovered more, returning to the pre-covid timetable would be sensible. Which is of course no guarantee that the government will authorise it

 

[JonathanH]

That's making the rather large assumption that the XC timetable will not introduce any extra services moving towards pre-covid routes and frequencies.

I suspect it is very unlikely that XC will return to the pre-Covid routes and timetables any time soon. The driver establishment needed would be greater, costs of operation higher, it would need a return to shorter trains and people are no doubt getting used to the new timetable. Running fewer trains should help reliability as well.

 

[Trainbike46]

I suspect it is very unlikely that XC will return to the pre-Covid routes and timetables any time soon. The driver establishment needed would be greater, costs of operation higher, it would need a return to shorter trains and people are no doubt getting used to the new timetable. Running fewer trains should help reliability as well.

They wouldn't have to return to shorter trains if they took the cl221s from avanti though

I agree it is unlikely that they will return fully to the pre-covid timetable, specifically anytime soon. However, I also think it is unlikely that they will stay in the current reduced timetable, therefore I disagree with @RailWonderer that there isn't any use for class 221s on XC

 

[JonathanH]

They wouldn't have to return to shorter trains if they took the cl221s from avanti though

They don't come free and no one will want to increase the costs of the XC operation in the current climate where cost saving is paramount.

Is there any guarantee that leasing 20 extra trains and running extra services would bring in the same amount of extra revenue?

 

[The Planner]

I suspect it is very unlikely that XC will return to the pre-Covid routes and timetables any time soon. The driver establishment needed would be greater, costs of operation higher, it would need a return to shorter trains and people are no doubt getting used to the new timetable. Running fewer trains should help reliability as well.

An element of Reading Newcastle is meant to back in May 23.

 

[JonathanH]

An element of Reading Newcastle is meant to back in May 23.

What motivation is there to run this? Would it lead to shorter trains elsewhere?

 

[Trainbike46]

They don't come free and no one will want to increase the costs of the XC operation in the current climate where cost saving is paramount.

Is there any guarantee that leasing 20 extra trains and running extra services would bring in the same amount of extra revenue?

XC is currently very busy, so more trains is likely to increase passenger numbers. In addition, if you were to replace the HSTs, you would reduce the number of traction types for driver training and potentially simplify diagrams. But of course there are no guarantees for any type of expenditure.

I think long-term XC should be looking to reduce rolling stock and other operating costs (possibly by playing off the leasing companies of the various 22x classes against each other), or by getting new bimodes

An element of Reading Newcastle is meant to back in May 23.

Great! Is that why there are the reports upthread of more HSTs returning to service?

 

[The Planner]

What motivation is there to run this? Would it lead to shorter trains elsewhere?

Reinstating the frequency, and yes, it will lead to shorter trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2022 ==

Great! Is that why there are the reports upthread of more HSTs returning to service?

No idea.

 

[lammergeier]

.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2022 ==

I suspect it is very unlikely that XC will return to the pre-Covid routes and timetables any time soon. The driver establishment needed would be greater, costs of operation higher, it would need a return to shorter trains and people are no doubt getting used to the new timetable. Running fewer trains should help reliability as well.

As I mentioned in another thread, the driver establishment hasn't changed and in fact AFAIK we have more drivers now than pre-covid due to trainees passing out. What is needed is a rest day work agreement which the DfT refuses to agree to although I suspect that we could resource the full timetable without one, albeit with poor resiliance.

Also the diagrams can be tightened - reduced running leads to dead time and excessive layover. So whereas previously drivers would hand over a Plymouth train at New St and work back North on a Newcastle terminator 20 minutes later, now there is a 55 minute layover waiting for the next northbound. Plenty of other examples at Reading, Newcastle, Bristol etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2022 ==

Great! Is that why there are the reports upthread of more HSTs returning to service?

I'm fairly sure the post about 4 diagrams in December is inaccurate. However I understand that the current plan is a third diagram in May after the rakes have been through overhaul

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2022 ==

What motivation is there to run this? Would it lead to shorter trains elsewhere?

What motivation is there to improve the service, run more trains and improve connections and better utilise staff and resources? Really?

 

[43074]

I'm fairly sure the post about 4 diagrams in December is inaccurate. However I understand that the current plan is a third diagram in May after the rakes have been through overhaul

4 diagrams was quoted in an interview with some XC Fleet people in a feature about the HSTs in the latest Modern Railways.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2022 ==

What motivation is there to run this? Would it lead to shorter trains elsewhere?

'Only a fool counts the cost of everything and the value of nothing' as the saying goes.

 

[Agent_Squash]

XC is currently very busy, so more trains is likely to increase passenger numbers. In addition, if you were to replace the HSTs, you would reduce the number of traction types for driver training and potentially simplify diagrams. But of course there are no guarantees for any type of expenditure.

I think long-term XC should be looking to reduce rolling stock and other operating costs (possibly by playing off the leasing companies of the various 22x classes against each other), or by getting new bimodes

Didn’t XC deliver a premium before COVID? It’s arguably a franchise that needs expanding, not shrinking.

 

[Trainbike46]

Didn’t XC deliver a premium before COVID? It’s arguably a franchise that needs expanding, not shrinking.

I don't mean shrinking the franchise, I mean reducing costs by reducing some combination of leasing, diesel, and staffing charges (by reducing the need for double staffing of double units, not by going doo or reducing pay) I absolutely think there needs to be more capacity and more services at XC

 

[liamf656]

Well, all the XC 220 and 221's and the Avanti 221's are all maintained already at Central Rivers. I believe that there is work that has been done on the class 222's before now at Central Rivers? -

Yes but never the whole 222 fleet in one go, Central Rivers has only ever done work on one, maybe two 222s at any one time. There isn’t the space for what would be 143 extra coaches. The 222 fleet would need to be maintained elsewhere if XC were to take them on

 

[JamesT]

Yes but never the whole 222 fleet in one go, Central Rivers has only ever done work on one, maybe two 222s at any one time. There isn’t the space for what would be 143 extra coaches. The 222 fleet would need to be maintained elsewhere if XC were to take them on

Would there be an issue with the 222s staying Derby where they currently are? It’s on the XC route so not as if they’re travelling miles to be in service.

 

[JonathanH]

Would there be an issue with the 222s staying Derby where they currently are? It’s on the XC route so not as if they’re travelling miles to be in service.

Yes, the Derby depot is passing to Hitachi for the 810 fleet so the 222s have to move out.

 

[RailWonderer]

That's making the rather large assumption that the XC timetable will not introduce any extra services moving towards pre-covid routes and frequencies. Given they are regularly reported as very full, and that they serve leisure routes that have recovered more, returning to the pre-covid timetable would be sensible. Which is of course no guarantee that the government will authorise it

I do know, especially around Oxford where twice this year I've seen 8 car XC Voyagers completely full, even in first class heading in both directions. I am only assuming the govt won't authorise it although I totally agree some frequencies need to be restored.

 

[Jimini]

I do know, especially around Oxford where twice this year I've seen 8 car XC Voyagers completely full, even in first class heading in both directions. I am only assuming the govt won't authorise it although I totally agree some frequencies need to be restored.

It’s been quite noticeable recently that most of the 4 or 5 car sets have been doing the Bournemouth runs, and the 8 or 9 cars sets are terminating at Reading. Genius move (granted I know little of the positioning moves ahead of these diagrams, but still…)

 

[dk1]

'Only a fool counts the cost of everything and the value of nothing' as the saying goes.

One of my all time favourite sayings. Very true indeed.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

It’s been quite noticeable recently that most of the 4 or 5 car sets have been doing the Bournemouth runs, and the 8 or 9 cars sets are terminating at Reading. Genius move (granted I know little of the positioning moves ahead of these diagrams, but still…)

Nothing should have been booked for any single Voyager on the Bournemouth or Manchester lines that are still running at a reduced frequency, unless it's an emergency!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Nothing should have been booked for any single Voyager on the Bournemouth or Manchester lines that are still running at a reduced frequency, unless it's an emergency!

The level of capacity is agreed with the DfT in line with costs they are prepared to fund.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

At the end of the day something needs to give. 3tp2h on Reading to the South Coast pre COVID and 1tp2h post with random stopping patterns re. Winchester and Brockenhurst is really quite ridiculous if to be permanent. The Reading Basingstoke Turbos and remaining 1tp2h are often rammed leaving Reading nowadays.

 

[tomuk]

Didn’t XC deliver a premium before COVID? It’s arguably a franchise that needs expanding, not shrinking.

XC Premium\Subsidy figures in £ million (negative is premium)

2015-16	2016-17	2017-18	2018-19	2019-20	2020-21
-90	-69	-66	-65	-7	428

 

[freetoview33]

Nothing should have been booked for any single Voyager on the Bournemouth or Manchester lines that are still running at a reduced frequency, unless it's an emergency!

Sure was the other morning on the Manchester to Southampton run.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Sure was the other morning on the Manchester to Southampton run.

That’s because there are trains booked with that formation on that route in line with the train service the DfT has asked XC to run.

 

[freetoview33]

It was a 221 and rammed just after 5am on Saturday morning, 5 coaches aren't enough.