Northen Rail False Fare Evasion Claim HELP PLEASE!!

[Tufty]

do Northern have any of their own RPI's?

Northern do have a revenue protection dept.

 

[Lampshade]

It does p**s me off that TOC's like Northern decide to use hired in staff to conduct RPI duties, it is a grey area aswell as being contractors they are only servants of the railway and not officers which makes a difference in cases under RRA 1889, i.e. a servant cannot detain a person under section 5(2) only an officer "s.5(2) If a passenger having failed to produce, or if requested to deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare, refuses, or fails, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, to give his name and address, any officer may detain him until he can be conveniently brought before some justice or otherwise discharged by due course of law", so a G4S member of staff cannot detain you if you fail to give a name and address. Although refusal to give a name and address is opening a can of worms.
Not being from that area so I dont know but do Northern have any of their own RPI's?

Northern have five RPIs for the whole of the West side, the vast majority of revenue duties are carried out by G4S.

 

[142094]

I think you may possibly need to delete the words 'in public relations' there sir! It strikes me they receive very little training of any sort, which is probably how they contrived to lose the case involving Duncan's daughter!

I was going to, but thought it may be a bit harsh. However I bet that their training consists of telling the difference between a small range of tickets and memorising the date. Nothing too challenging, but when you get people in with little training working for peanuts, then you are bound to get problems.

 

[Ferret]

Pacer094, I wouldn't call it harsh, more accurate! I'm willing to bet that the training they receive is very basic, and I can tell you from personal experience that learning about tickets is not a 5 minute job! Indeed, after a number of years in the job, I will freely confess that I don't know absolutely everything that there is to know!

 

[Flamingo]

I have to look up the "restrictions" on the Avantex on a regular basis as well. The thing that most people fiorget is that 99% of tickets we see are the same routes, the 1% that are differing routes can catch us out.

 

[Ferret]

I have to look up the "restrictions" on the Avantex on a regular basis as well. The thing that most people fiorget is that 99% of tickets we see are the same routes, the 1% that are differing routes can catch us out.

Yup, that option is regularly used by me too! I struggle with the routeing guide though - alas it won't fit in my pocket when I'm yomping through the train!

 

[strange6]

I have to look up the "restrictions" on the Avantex on a regular basis as well. The thing that most people fiorget is that 99% of tickets we see are the same routes, the 1% that are differing routes can catch us out.

I often notice a few situations when people have got onboard a train with tickets of one type or another that are not often seen on a particular route and the guard has to have a little query with the people concerned. Not as easy as it looks being a guard due to all that information you have to remember. Overall, I'm impressed by their professionalism - of course you get the one miserable bugger sometimes like you do elsewhere in life

 

[Flamingo]

Yup, that option is regularly used by me too! I struggle with the routeing guide though - alas it won't fit in my pocket when I'm yomping through the train!

At least you have a copy! I usually TAB through my trains (but they are longer!)

 

[Ferret]

At least you have a copy! I usually TAB through my trains (but they are longer!)

Do I heck! My copy of the routeing guide is like everyone elses; it's on my laptop!

Still doesn't stop me chinging the most obvious ones though! Guildford-Swansea via Sheffield?! I think not!

 

[b0b]

Sounds like you guys need to expense iPads

 

[142094]

Pacer094, I wouldn't call it harsh, more accurate! I'm willing to bet that the training they receive is very basic, and I can tell you from personal experience that learning about tickets is not a 5 minute job! Indeed, after a number of years in the job, I will freely confess that I don't know absolutely everything that there is to know!

I would guess that a large proportion of tickets they see are for journeys that end at Manchester. I've never had to break my journey at Piccadilly yet when there has been G4S on a barrier, so I wouldn't know if they'd be able to handle something as complicated as that! Some of them don't carry a ticket machine so couldn't look up the restrictions (if they even know what one is), so the only thing they can be there for is a deterrant and to make sure everyone has some form of ticket.

 

[222007]

Yorkie, certainly where my employers are concerned, it isn't the taxpayer who pays the court costs - it's the defendant (so long as my employers win of course).

Indeed that is quite correct (i believe we both work for the same TOC as i've heard you mentioned by a colleague).

I was supporting a wrok mate at court basically the outcome was *a fine *the cost of the fare *Costs and finally the £15 victim surcharge

 

[yorkie]

Yorkie, certainly where my employers are concerned, it isn't the taxpayer who pays the court costs - it's the defendant (so long as my employers win of course).

Yes, the loser of the case pays, but when the loser is the TOC it's taxpayers rather than TOC profits that are hit - as I understand it.

so the only thing they can be there for is a deterrant and to make sure everyone has some form of ticket.

Agreed, they're not knowledgeable at all. If the particularly nasty ones started posting on this forum they'd not last long. I've heard several stories about them from people who live in Manchester. They only ever seem to give my tickets the slightest glance though, and I rarely ever use a ticket starting/finishing at Manchester there. Perhaps we could do a competition to see what the most ridiculous ticket they'll accept is? (while holding a perfectly valid ticket, of course!)

 

[142094]

Agreed, they're not knowledgeable at all. If the particularly nasty ones started posting on this forum they'd not last long. I've heard several stories about them from people who live in Manchester. They only ever seem to give my tickets the slightest glance though, and I rarely ever use a ticket starting/finishing at Manchester there. Perhaps we could do a competition to see what the most ridiculous ticket they'll accept is? (while holding a perfectly valid ticket, of course!)

I'll have to ask a former colleague for some ideas. He once was able to get onto a Government site (of national importance, which has a high bomb level threat), by showing a banana instead of the normal yellow ID badge. If i can turn banana into a related ticket, I'll let you know!

 

[Lampshade]

Perhaps we could do a competition to see what the most ridiculous ticket they'll accept is? (while holding a perfectly valid ticket, of course!)

Challenge accepted

 

[TTI]

Agreed - abysmal advice re: "worth a fight" (It isnt. Banged to rights, as they say)
It is a legal requirement to purchase a valid ticket before you board the train if ticket purchasing facilities are available. Burscough Bridge was open (and without problems I guess). Northern can get you on that one via Prosecution if they want. Occasionally the Police can do that as well.

Your second opportunity to purchase a ticket (on the train) didnt occur due to a machine fault - these things happen. Cash would have been good at this point!
Your third opportunity to purchase a ticket was when you changed trains at Salford Crescent (at the ticket office on the platform!) but you chose not to!
Your fourth opportunity to purchase a ticket was when you arrived at Manchester Oxford Road, but you asked for a "short-fare".

This was given to you deliberately for "evidence".

What you didn't know, was that as soon as you asked for a "short-fare" the ticket office staff knew you couldn't come from their WITHOUT a ticket and 'tipped the wink' to the Revenue staff/BTP officers to "interview" you.

As it is a criminal offence what you did, it is very likely you will be summonsed to Court shortly and your "mitigation" (above) should be given to the 'beak' via your solicitor.
Cases are normally easily proved, and the Fines are subject to means, but generally £50-£100 plus £50 costs plus the compensation to Northern for the fare avoided.

 

[yorkie]

Agreed - abysmal advice re: "worth a fight" (It isnt. Banged to rights, as they say)

Glad we agree

It is a legal requirement to purchase a valid ticket before you board the train if ticket purchasing facilities are available. Burscough Bridge was open (and without problems I guess). Northern can get you on that one via Prosecution if they want. Occasionally the Police can do that as well.

Your second opportunity to purchase a ticket (on the train) didnt occur due to a machine fault - these things happen. Cash would have been good at this point!
Your third opportunity to purchase a ticket was when you changed trains at Salford Crescent (at the ticket office on the platform!) but you chose not to!
Your fourth opportunity to purchase a ticket was when you arrived at Manchester Oxford Road, but you asked for a "short-fare"

I really don't think this is helpful, this topic has surely gone it's course now, the fact is the guard was happy to sell him a ticket but the machine was broken, so the idea that he had a second opportunity on the train is not a valid one! Card is a valid payment type, the cash suggestion is irrelevant. The third opportunity is only if he had sufficient interchange time without missing a train, there is no requirement to miss a train, so unless there was a long wait for a train (unlikely) this third opportunity is also fictitious. Posts like these muddy the water and are just an attempt to tell someone off who doesn't need any further telling off IMO.

The fact is he asked for a ticket 'short' and that is the alleged crime, no need to muddy the water, and it is very difficult to get a verdict in the customers favour in such cases, although it can be done if the OP gets a very good, experienced lawyer (see Burley Park/Headingley example). The chances of success are not great though.

There's no point in going over this, the OP is well aware what he did was wrong, and has received suitable advice, is aware of a suitable lawyer, is aware of advice to settle out of court. This thread has served its course!

 

[Mojo]

I fear there is a danger of this turning into another one of those threads where it descends into a debate or argument about the wrongs and rights of a potential situation (eg. Virgin 'bullies' thread) where it probably wouldn't be helpful; we've had these countless times before.

As the OP has been given suitable advice I'm going to lock this thread here.