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Avanti are presently running 1 direct train between HHD and EUS on Saturdays. This coming week there are zero direct weekday trains. Weekday travel between North Wales and London often involves changing at both Crewe and Chester. As often as not, travel in the North Wales portion is with Transport for Wales.
Should the route be taken away from Avanti and given to TfW? Yes, TfW would need more rolling stock.
When HS2 opens it may be worth considering whether a direct service is needed at all. With HS2 being so much faster than the classic line, people may well prefer to change at Crewe.
A direct HS2 service could potentially even be added if the line was electrified - there are a couple of spare portions.
In that case, getting rid of the shuttle and operating an hourly service from Holyhead or Llandudno* to Birmingham via Crewe and Stafford (as per the old LHCS) may be a better replacement, with the other Birmingham service reverting to starting at Chester as it used to. That will offer connections to HS2 at both Crewe and Birmingham and offer a useful through journey opportunity much quicker than Birmingham via Shewsbury.
However until then it should remain with the WCML operator.
* The easiest way to do it may well be to run Llandudno-Chester as double 3-car 197s and split there to each destination.
What problem would your suggestion solve? Would it actually solve it? Such a service is unlikely to have the full attention of the authority, which will likely focus on the Cardiff Valleys and other 'internal' schemes.
Id suggest that with 200k entries and exits at Holyhead there hasnt actually been any justification for a through service to London for years. Given the traffics equivalent to half a Windermere Branch maybe a 2 car DMU to Llandudno?
Id suggest that with 200k entries and exits at Holyhead there hasnt actually been any justification for a through service to London for years. Given the traffics equivalent to half a Windermere Branch maybe a 2 car DMU to Llandudno?
As I mentioned I think HS2 could kill any need for a through service when a change will be so much quicker. Of course people don't like changing, but if it saves them an hour they probably would do it.
As Bletchleyite says, I don’t think there will be much need for a direct London - Holyhead service post-HS2. Birmingham is a more important destination for that part of Wales, therefore I could see the existing service remain with the ICWC operator but divert via Brum between Rugby and Stafford. It would mean a faster journey for Brum - Chester/Holyhead, while keeping the single train from London for those very few who are reluctant to change.
As part of my plan, the existing Birmingham - Holyhead would only run as far at Chester, but could be improved to hourly along with the Aberystwyth and Cardiff - Holyhead service (giving you 2tph clockface on the Marches and Shrewsbury - Chester line, and 4tph through Telford)
Id suggest that with 200k entries and exits at Holyhead there hasnt actually been any justification for a through service to London for years. Given the traffics equivalent to half a Windermere Branch maybe a 2 car DMU to Llandudno?
It's not just Holyhead though. It's also the entries and exits at Flint, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Junction and Bangor that need to be taken into account.
It's not just Holyhead though. It's also the entries and exits at Flint, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Junction and Bangor that need to be taken into account.
You could I suppose argue that terminating it at Bangor would make more sense - there is a fairly decent student market there. And indeed some do (or did). Holyhead is certainly not as important as it was - low cost airlines have seen to that, the ferries now mostly carry cars.
You could I suppose argue that terminating it at Bangor would make more sense - there is a fairly decent student market there. And indeed some do (or did). Holyhead is certainly not as important as it was - low cost airlines have seen to that, the ferries now mostly carry cars.
Even Bangor only attracts 600k pa sorry thats not Direct Intercity service to London territory, frankly I doubt anywhere past Chester is may be a token one a day to Llandudno in summer?
Even Bangor only attracts 600k pa sorry thats not Direct Intercity service to London territory, frankly I doubt anywhere past Chester is may be a token one a day to Llandudno in summer?
Even Bangor only attracts 600k pa sorry thats not Direct Intercity service to London territory, frankly I doubt anywhere past Chester is may be a token one a day to Llandudno in summer?
Ugh. This is exactly why I'm suggesting Welsh govt. run rail take over the route. The DfT isn't interested in good rail connections to North Wales. Not having decent trains hurts buiness and tourism along the North Wales coast.
We used to have several per day. The 9:22 from Bangor to Euston was often close to full. Holyhead used to get a 10 car Voyager timed to the ferry and it could get busy.
Changing at Chester and Crewe with luggage is not fun. Dumping a Voyager of passengers into a 2 coach train? Also not fun.
The shuttle is a nuisance, born of the Birmingham service being sent via Shrewsbury for political reasons. It would be more useful to more people to run Holyhead-Crewe and terminate the Birmingham at Chester, or even to portion work it.
When you consider that Holyhead to Llandudno junction is the same distance as Par to Penzance and that Truro alone has 1.2 million and 200k changing the network doesnt.
We used to have several per day. The 9:22 from Bangor to Euston was often close to full. Holyhead used to get a 10 car Voyager timed to the ferry and it could get busy.
does that matter? If a service is well-used, that seems enough reason to keep it / reinstate it when Avanti has more drivers, no matter what the final destination of the passengers is.
You could I suppose argue that terminating it at Bangor would make more sense - there is a fairly decent student market there. And indeed some do (or did). Holyhead is certainly not as important as it was - low cost airlines have seen to that, the ferries now mostly carry cars.
Not really a good location to turn back services. Indeed, the only service that they run per day that terminates there only does so because it can't get to Holyhead and back; they want to eliminate Bangor terminating. Plus, TfW will terminate there from next year, so no.
As for the question...Avanti is the logical choice as the principal operator of the WCML. It's providing a crap service at the moment, but TfW aren't exactly riding high either. So no.
As Bletchleyite says, I don’t think there will be much need for a direct London - Holyhead service post-HS2. Birmingham is a more important destination for that part of Wales, therefore I could see the existing service remain with the ICWC operator but divert via Brum between Rugby and Stafford. It would mean a faster journey for Brum - Chester/Holyhead, while keeping the single train from London for those very few who are reluctant to change.
As part of my plan, the existing Birmingham - Holyhead would only run as far at Chester, but could be improved to hourly along with the Aberystwyth and Cardiff - Holyhead service (giving you 2tph clockface on the Marches and Shrewsbury - Chester line, and 4tph through Telford)
Do you have any evidence for the part highlighted?
Certainly doesn't match my experience (I was brought up in North Wales and still have family there).
We used to go to London once or twice a year but cannot remember ever going to Birmingham. My relatives there do much the same - one or two annual trips to London, never been to Birmingham as far as I know.
I can't remember anyone I knew (neighbours, schoolfriends etc) who ever mentioned going to Brum.
Do you have any evidence for the part highlighted?
Certainly doesn't match my experience (I was brought up in North Wales and still have family there).
We used to go to London once or twice a year but cannot remember ever going to Birmingham. My relatives there do much the same - one or two annual trips to London, never been to Birmingham as far as I know.
I can't remember anyone I knew (neighbours, schoolfriends etc) who ever mentioned going to Brum.
Its every two hours. There is a massive change in passengers at Chester on Holyhead-Cardiff/Birmingham services.
There are essentially three long term options for London-North Wales:
1) Keep bi modes that are entering service next year to run a direct service after HS2 opens to Crewe. Maybe just run 3tpd each way from Holyhead and replace London-Chester hourly with second Crewe-Chester shuttle service.
2) End all direct services and expect people to change at Crewe. Good financial option but bad politics.
3) Electrify North Wales Coast and run a HS2 200m portion every couple of hours splitting and joining at Crewe. Not economic but good politics.
I reckon it will be option 1. The old service pattern will return eventually unless DfT reallocates the new Hitachi bi modes and it will be expedient to let it stumble on long term. The ToC should be whoever runs the fastest WCML services.
Changing at Crewe makes perfect sense to me, however the implementation of the service in today's world would see the Crewe-Holyhead service departing Crewe in sight of the late-running Euston-Crewe service which was supposed to connect with it.
When HS2 opens it may be worth considering whether a direct service is needed at all. With HS2 being so much faster than the classic line, people may well prefer to change at Crewe.
I would be very surprised if HS2 is carrying passengers from Crewe 8 or even 10 years from now.
When it does start running of course the operators and DfT should look at direct services to London from North Wales.
On the other hand if the options are TfW calling at all stations, change at Chester change to HS2 at Crewe or 3:15 direct from Bangor (what we used to have), I'll take the direct.
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Yes. Disclaimer: I don't read time tables as hobby. This is all from memory.
In the VT days there was an early depart Holyhead around 6AM, one around 9Am (Depart BNG at 9:22) and early afternoon 10 car voyager timed to for the ferry. On Saturdays there was an direct depart BNG at 8:22.
At the moment the early 6AM Saturday train is the only direct train to London. Weekdays are a mess.
From memory the stops were:
Holyhead - Bangor - Llanduno Juntion - Colwyn Bay - Rhyl - Flint - Chester - Crewe - Milton Keynes - London Eustion. Some of the direct trains terminated at or started at Bangor. I dont remember which.
The morning train from Euston did not stop at one or two stations (Flint?) and was a few minutes faster.
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